SToons
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/07 21:20:43
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backwoods
p.s. Sidechaining is not my preferred method for ducking or deesing. It's a lot easier to do with manual envelope adjustments. Not sure how you "Professionals" do it.
"Professionals" on a timeline consider many factors and use the most appropriate tool for the task at hand on a case by case basis. Perhaps you should take your childish instigations somewhere people are interested.
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backwoods
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/07 21:22:21
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Oh ok- with special consideration to their Wvaes Bundle which is the gold Standard I presume...
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SToons
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/07 21:30:49
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backwoods
Oh ok- with special consideration to their Wvaes Bundle which is the gold Standard I presume...
Why, no, golly, I see far more Elysia compressors in studios and academic institutions than Waves of course... And the same goes for Live mixing. Yup. You might consider having that thing up that place surgically removed. It appears to be aggravating you and making you a little inflammatory.
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TomG
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/07 22:19:18
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Hi Noel !
" ..... All cakewalk products have had this functionality since the 90's. Our DX sdk had an IDeferZeroFill interface that Ron thought of way back then. If anything I think this capability in VST3 came from there :) Additionally SONAR has always optimized to not stream through plugins that do not have an active audio stream. Only channels that have audio or are input monitored or have a synth feed actually pass through audio to plugins. That has been done from day one so its most certainly not something new you will get ..... "
From this and your other post further elaborating on this, firstly:-
-> thank you for explaining
and
-> if it is possbile to do this with the current VST 2.x spec, it would be great if Cake could put this on the " to do " list for the not-too-distant future - so to be very specific about what I mean by this, I clarify with this example:-
- say you have an audio track of lead vox and inbetween the Verses / Chorus / M8 / Outro etc...... there are gaps of no-audio-at all - that is, each verse / chorus etc.... is in its own stand-alone un-connected audio clip
- say this track has 6 VST effects on it when playing back
- so when it plays back say a Verse or Chorus, the CPU sits on a steady at %10
- with Sonar X1 and the current VST 2.x spec, when playback hits the empty parts between each audio clip, the CPU meter will remain at a steady %10 - it wont drop to zero
- with the VST 3 spec - my understaing is - and please correct me if I am wrong - that the CPU meter will drop to %0 cpu when it is running between the audio clips and only be at %10 when it is running through a Verse / Chorus clip etc....
So ...... * if * my understing above is correct, it would be great if Sonar could get this feature under the VST 2.x spec some time in the nearer future.
All the best Noel and thanks again.
TomG
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keith
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/07 22:21:47
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SToons
What backward opinion? That Sonar does not fully support Waves. Yeah, real backwards. Completely accurate.
By hobbling their VST2.4 plugins, Waves is the one choosing to not fully support SONAR... and Ableton... and Cockos... and Samplitude... and whatever host chooses to get the most functionality out of the fewest number of lines of code added/changed from release to release. Ripping things apart to support a new and entirely different plugin architecture needs to be weighted against the alternatives... namely: not ripping things apart. All Waves has to do is add two freaking i/o pins to their oh-so-freaking-special plugins, boom, done. We're not even having this conversation. But instead they've decided to draw an artificial technology line in the sand between VST2.4 and VST3. So now it's VST2.4 against VST3, instead of asking why Waves chose to hobble their VST2.4 plugins for artificial reasons. Docs Noel was refering to: http://www.cakewalk.com/devXchange/article.aspx?aid=102 . Couldn't be simpler. Do you want sidechaining in Cubase SX3 and C4 using VST2.4 plugins? We can do that too... http://www.electrypnose.com/data/tutorials/Intellinoise_sidechain_compression_v1.1.pdf Just not with, er, Waves. For some reason. Nobody quite knows why. But I'm open to theories. Actually, I have my own theories, but they're not nice ones, so I'll keep them to myself.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/07 23:24:14
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One pin actually :) The original pin already exists since every VST has an input and an output. All that's required is for the speaker config to specify a 2 pin input.
For DSP that already has sidechain capabilities it literally takes a few hours to implement this scheme.
When we were doing our prochannel compressor the dev's had this going in less than a day. Its baffling that so many still think its necessary for a whole new model to do something this trivial. And this is not proprietary to Cakewalk - there were plugin vendors such as Kjaerhus supporting this even before we implemented sidechaining back in 2007.
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SToons
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/08 01:43:09
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Thanks Keith and Noel for chiming in. As you may well understand it's not obvious to users what's going on behind the scenes in terms of plugin conformity (different story from Waves...) so it's nice to hear another perspective, not like I have the savvy to fully understand the politics of decisions such as this.
I do, however, have a much better understanding of the limited benefits (note I said limited, not non-existant) of VST3 at this point and understand Cakewalk's position alot better. I also have a better understanding of the "limitations" of VST 2.4 vs VST 3 which are less significant than I had expected. Despite others' feelings towards this thread, for me it has been informative and I thank you again for the input. This may change my mind about future decisions/purchases and it's nice to feel a little better equipped to make those choices.
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bigboi
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/08 05:07:55
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Freddie H
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/08 08:27:10
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I still haven’t decided yet if I going to upgrade to X2 but if this slow progress continues of not adding new technologies in time, they will eventually lose me as a customer too....
-Highly developed spirits often encounter resistance from mediocre minds. -It really matters!
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Freddie H
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/08 11:02:03
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk
]
One pin actually :) The original pin already exists since every VST has an input and an output. All that's required is for the speaker config to specify a 2 pin input.
For DSP that already has sidechain capabilities it literally takes a few hours to implement this scheme.
When we were doing our prochannel compressor the dev's had this going in less than a day. Its baffling that so many still think its necessary for a whole new model to do something this trivial. And this is not proprietary to Cakewalk - there were plugin vendors such as Kjaerhus supporting this even before we implemented sidechaining back in 2007.
Dear Noel! I’m sure you know all about this Noel and we all users are just fools asking about it. Obviously you have already made up your mind decided we don’t need it and you are personal against it like VST just from the beginning. I bet you hate VST so much you think we shouldn’t have added it in the first place. In your SONAR it should only support Direct X only and VST should just DIE!! DIE!!!DIE!!! Is that why Cakewalk dragging there ass behind now for over 4 years now? Just wondering? Other manufactures see VST 3.5 as potential and cost effect solutions like ARA. I don’t know what you see? So being a represent of a TECH GURU Cakewalk Company; obviously you think I’m a pain in ass; is that why you try to silence me by not reply to any of my post here on this thread or this Forum? It’s not working!  I just wonder where you stand sir, so we all know. Not willing to listen on the customers and the users will never victory, even the pain ass ones. You may hate me but I still like you and like to hear what you have to say in any matters. For you sir, all this it’s very simple! In your mind, anything could be done with VST 2.4. No one needs VST3 to accomplish any task at all. We don’t even need VST it will work even better with direct X instead. I agree you are correct of that one! 
But end of the day no one care what you or me personal think about VST 3.5 or that we don't need it. The Battle of making VST 3 as a standard is already over, years ago! One day the other 3part manufactures like Waves, Native Instruments, UAD 2, Fabfilter, EASTWEST, Spectrasonics, Celemony Melodyne and so on will just add VST 3.5 ONLY anyway; no matter if we like it or not. You can debate all day long how good VST 2.4 are or Direct X is even better then VST. In the end it’s just "game over" like x32 plugins. In the end VST 2.4 will just die out, and that day has come and it's soon. Thanks in advance for any reply! Best Regards Freddie
post edited by Freddie H - 2012/09/08 11:19:11
-Highly developed spirits often encounter resistance from mediocre minds. -It really matters!
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Blogman
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/08 12:33:23
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Antares new Auto tune Live is ONLY available as VST3. Already new plugins that HAVE to have VST3 support or you can't use them. Cakewalk is ONLY limiting their own viability and ultimately affecting their OWN bottom line which in turn will only Limit what Cakewalk (who is already too limited in resources to make VST3 a priority despite NUMEROUS threads and forum requests and myself calling customer support) can do for us the customer. . Sonar x1 and all it's bugs has already been stifling enough, then throw in plugin functionality/compatibility. X2 is NOT looking very SEAMLESS or GENIUS. Sad to see Noel trying to defend the whole it can be done in 2.4, like the plug companies are going to move backwards. You're not going to go back and add console emulation to 8.53 which is STILL the most STABLE version making it a better candidate for it. No, instead you are fixing what SHOULD have been fixed/not broken in X1 and adding console emulation, charging, and calling it X2. Cakewalk is even making VST3 version of Z3ta 2. Vst 2.4 not good enough?
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bitflipper
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/08 12:45:29
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In the end VST 2.4 will just die out, and that day has come and it's soon. You're talking out yer a$$, Freddie. You don't have a frickin' clue, but that doesn't stop you from arguing with Noel, of all people. Seriously? VST 2.4 is not going to die out. Period. DAWs already support it. Do you think they're going to rip out the VST 2.4 code because it's no longer fashionable? I will concede this one point to the VST3 evangelists: if all the plugin vendors decided to abandon VST 2.4 and sell only VST 3 products, then yes we'd be in trouble. But the same thing could be said about AAX, AU or RTAS. Are you losing sleep because SONAR doesn't support Audio Units and never will? Do you know there are AU-only plugins out there that you can't have? Plugins are a small market. Software vendors must broaden that market as much as possible by offering multiple versions - 32 and 64-bit versions, VST, AU and RTAS versions, light/free/demo and full-featured versions, plugin and standalone versions. There are exactly two vendors in the world that might be so arrogant as to not do so: Steinberg and Waves. Let's not forget the salient point in all this, which is that VST X is an interface specification, nothing more. It sets the rules by which two pieces of software exchange data. That's all. It does not dictate what a plugin can or cannot do internally any more than TCP/IP dictates what you and I can type here. A well-designed interface is inherently extensible, meaning it's capable of being adapted to things the original designers didn't think of. VST 2.4 is extensible. There is no intrinsic reason it should ever become obsolete. So no, VST 2.4 is not going to "die out". Even if it did, there is no basis to assume that VST3 would be its successor (other than "3" is a higher number than "2.4"). Rest easy, Freddie. You have nothing to worry about.
 All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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SToons
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/08 12:54:14
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bitflipper
Plugins are a small market. Software vendors must broaden that market as much as possible by offering multiple versions - 32 and 64-bit versions, VST, AU and RTAS versions, light/free/demo and full-featured versions, plugin and standalone versions. There are exactly two vendors in the world that might be so arrogant as to not do so: Steinberg and Waves.
You forgot Cakewalk. Or have they recently adapted their plugins to all listed formats? Yes, I'm aware of some (Rapture for example) but aside from the VSTi's how about the modules etc.?
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B San
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/08 14:33:01
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Vocalign via VST3 comes in handy... I hope one day Sonar users can enjoy...
I also hope that Sonar users will one day be able to experience the bliss that a gapless audio engine offers...
Peace
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stevec
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/08 15:06:58
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Vocalign via VST3 comes in handy... I hope one day Sonar users can enjoy... Based on what Noel wrote previously VST3 certainly is on their list. Just not for X2. As far as the continued discussion goes, one thing (among many) that I've taken away from this thread is that VST2.4 plugins and hosts still outweigh VST3 plugins and hosts. IOW, the pure numbers still favor 2.4 which is what X2 will support. But trends being what they are, that balance is likely to change over the next year or two. So perhaps this is what CW knew all along and is why X2 isn't VST3 compliant. But I think Noel also wrote something to that effect previously too, didn't he... this thread is getting so long that it's getting more difficult to keep things straight. 
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bigboi
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/08 19:02:59
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i think the fact that it is getting so many hits and getting so long might say something.
post edited by bigboi - 2012/09/08 20:45:00
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gswitz
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/08 20:17:03
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So, I have a things I'm curious about. VST3 seems useful, although, I'm not hungry for it. I don't buy a lot of outside plug-ins.
John said developers choose what goes in to the product. In my experience the choice of what to include tends to be made by project managers and managers. Developers usually just estimate scope (read cost) of various features.
Keith said 'don't pass the zeros' to avoid processing on VST2.4. I thought that the most significant bit in floats was always presumed to be one so that you get one more bit out of however many you have. For this reason, floats have a positive and negative 0. In other words, absolute zero doesn't really exist in floats. Now, I'm sure you could round and not pass or implement logic around when to feed data to the plug in, which was his point. I could see some developers feeding the stream to the plugin regardless. Perhaps not Cakewalk.
I will say, that during fast bounces, even when only bouncing certain tracks, the fx on every track seem to impact the bounce speed. Perhaps I'm wrong on this. It just seems to be. In other words, if I bounce only 2 tracks out of 20, it will bounce faster if I delete all but the 2, assuming lots of fx on the other 18. I'm shooting from the hip here based on experience. So, would VST3s Fast Bounce faster?
And one of the comments on Steinberg.net mentions x64. I kinda thought that Sonar was a major leader in the x64 DAW world. I would think that making it easier for us x64 users to grow our x64 plugin base might make users of non x64 DAWs jealous. Just a guess.
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bitflipper
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/08 22:42:59
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You forgot Cakewalk. Or have they recently adapted their plugins to all listed formats? Yes, I'm aware of some (Rapture for example) but aside from the VSTi's how about the modules etc.? Rapture, Dimension Pro, Z3ta2 and Studio Instruments are all available as both VST and AU. I believe Rapture and Dim Pro are RTAS, too. Don't know about the others. As for other modules, the Pro Channel stuff only works in SONAR, so there are no AU or RTAS versions. What else is there that they sell independently of SONAR? The only things I can think of that have limited versions are the old stuff, e.g. the Sonitus suite (32-bit only as a separate purchase) and Boost 11 (VST on PC only). There's that bass amp sim, which I know nothing about. I'd say Cakewalk has done a lot to address the most popular plugin interfaces, representing a major effort for a small company.
All else is in doubt, so this is the truth I cling to. My Stuff
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bobguitkillerleft
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/09 02:14:52
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cclarry
This is why Waves has stated that, in the next Major Release VST 2.4 will
not be supported.
New topic please...this ones a dead horse...
History repeats itself...
Maybe a dead horse,but WHEN IS WAVES GOING TO lose VST 2.4???? I just spent a REAL lot[for me] on various bundles/deals,that a year ago at full price,would have been nearly 2K,so I'm pretty anxious if X2 is not going to let these rather expensive pictures of knobs dials,and sound shaping doo dads operate,especially if IT's GOING TO BE SOON! Bob
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SToons
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/09 02:28:09
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bobguitkillerleft
Maybe a dead horse,but WHEN IS WAVES GOING TO lose VST 2.4????
I just spent a REAL lot[for me] on various bundles/deals,that a year ago at full price,would have been nearly 2K,so I'm pretty anxious if X2 is not going to let these rather expensive pictures of knobs dials,and sound shaping doo dads operate,especially if IT's GOING TO BE SOON!
Bob
Sonar will continue to support the Waves plugins you purchased for many years to come. IF, and I say IF, Waves discontinues creating VST2.4 compatible plugins it will have no effect on you unless you upgrade to those newer plugins in the future. The plugins you already purchased are good to go for now and the future. There are a few features Sonar does not support in respect to the Waves plugins (you can't sidechain or use the Waves Surround Tools) but if this hasn't really impacted you yet it likely won't. Cheers.
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bobguitkillerleft
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/09 03:20:03
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SToons
bobguitkillerleft
Maybe a dead horse,but WHEN IS WAVES GOING TO lose VST 2.4????
I just spent a REAL lot[for me] on various bundles/deals,that a year ago at full price,would have been nearly 2K,so I'm pretty anxious if X2 is not going to let these rather expensive pictures of knobs dials,and sound shaping doo dads operate,especially if IT's GOING TO BE SOON!
Bob
Sonar will continue to support the Waves plugins you purchased for many years to come. IF, and I say IF, Waves discontinues creating VST2.4 compatible plugins it will have no effect on you unless you upgrade to those newer plugins in the future. The plugins you already purchased are good to go for now and the future.
There are a few features Sonar does not support in respect to the Waves plugins (you can't sidechain or use the Waves Surround Tools) but if this hasn't really impacted you yet it likely won't.
Cheers.
THANK YOU!,I was freaking due to"a perhaps misunderstood"statement from "cclarry" where he said the NEXT Waves update,will only support VST3 and support[which I may confuse to mean "Won't work anymore"]for VST 2.4 will be no more,but if you say what your saying "they will continue work" well,all is cool! Cheers Bob
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mandrake
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/09 12:01:36
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bigboi
i think the fact that it is getting so many hits and getting so long might say something.
yeah it says that people are dense and dont understand that vst3 is really more of a political move from Steinberg. lol plug in makers practically revolted against it. They correctly smelled the rat. BTW--its not a standard if its not universally adopted. When and IF it is, I'm sure Cakewalk will include it. :)
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bobguitkillerleft
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/09 20:31:10
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mandrake
bigboi
i think the fact that it is getting so many hits and getting so long might say something.
yeah it says that people are dense and dont understand that vst3 is really more of a political move from Steinberg. lol
plug in makers practically revolted against it. They correctly smelled the rat.
BTW--its not a standard if its not universally adopted. When and IF it is, I'm sure Cakewalk will include it. :)
By people you mean,a guitar playin fool like me,gee thanks dude,nice entry to the community :[
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mandrake
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/09 20:56:32
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bobguitkillerleft
By people you mean,a guitar playin fool like me,gee thanks dude,nice entry to the community :[
I didnt actually read ur posts. But now that I did you had a good question, though Noel already answered it earlier. I was just speculating as to why this thread keept going. In other words, I dont think its because of a huge need or demand for vst3, as was sort of implied by who I quoted. I tried to make a joke. I'll grant you keyboard players (like me) are not known for being funny. No offense intended. Anyway, I thought guitar players where more thick skinned. Or is that drummers? I dont know. I play bass and keys so what does that make me? believe me, I'm even more dense on some things. Like audio snap..I never could figure that out! lol
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bobguitkillerleft
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/09 21:34:32
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mandrake
bobguitkillerleft
By people you mean,a guitar playin fool like me,gee thanks dude,nice entry to the community :[
I didnt actually read ur posts. But now that I did you had a good question, though Noel already answered it earlier. I was just speculating as to why this thread keept going. In other words, I dont think its because of a huge need or demand for vst3, as was sort of implied by who I quoted. I tried to make a joke. I'll grant you keyboard players (like me) are not known for being funny. No offense intended. Anyway, I thought guitar players where more thick skinned. Or is that drummers? I dont know. I play bass and keys so what does that make me? believe me, I'm even more dense on some things. Like audio snap..I never could figure that out! lol
Thanks,I just opened the forum up and saw"dense",and of course in my overtly"self obsessed modern way"thought you mean't me[as I was pretty dumb in interpreting the whole thing,and I'm STILL not 100% on the concept of"will not support" and using Waves license manager to go from my laptop to desktop,where I'm sure one MUST use the latest update?],and maybe thats why I gave music away for 20 or so years cause I wasn't "Thick Skinned" enough?.....distinct possibility,thinking back. So I'm sorry for my morning looniness 11.03am Monday 10th Sept. Cheers Bob
post edited by bobguitkillerleft - 2012/09/09 22:11:54
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bigboi
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/09 22:11:57
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@mandrake....i did not hack into the site and up the thread views. people are interested.
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scook
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/09 22:16:21
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FWIW I just find it a fun read. Not unlike the Staff View thread. I do not think one can infer much from the hit count. It is like trying to read some meaning in a persons post count.
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firefly9000
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/10 01:39:38
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The benefits of 2.4 vs 3 may be debatable... so may the fact that Steinberg threw 3 out there to gain something.
But IF Waves and other companies go the 3 route, then this is a mute debate. I get a chuckle out of people that keep repeating proudly on this thread their solution: THEY are doing just fine without these plugs so you should too... (why didn't I think of that - limiting my creativity, what a fantastic workaround)
I think whoever pointed to the VHS vs. Betamax example had it right. At the end of the day what the programmers, fanoboys or opponents have to say may be irrelevant... If Noel knows that this leap won't happen, or that when it will happen Sonar will be ON IT, then it's all good with me.
But if it does and I'm sitting around for weeks or months waiting for it or dealing with buggy quick fix implementations I will be a VERY unhappy camper... I still remember when VST implementation was new in Sonar etc...
IF the leap to VsT3 exclusive plugs happens and Sonar is dragging their feet I'll have to switch to my ProTools crap (maybe the new 11). I can have a programmer draw me a diagram as to why 2.4 is just as good or better than 3 - but it's not going to matter at all a that point - I need my fully functional tools (not semi). It also wouldn't help if somebody tells me that then can make music with a rubber band and a match stick :) Good for them - I still need my fully functional tools.
In all fairness I have to give CW the benefit of the doubt. Sometimes these guys come up with INCREDIBLE stuff... but sometimes they miss the very obvious (eg: ability to organize - drag/drop - synths in the syth view - or to set grid view to smaller than full measure in track view)
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chuckebaby
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/10 02:48:00
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what are we really missing with vst 3 ?
a handful of waves plug ins ?
its really not a big deal as far as im concerned.
i can live without it.
now by the next version of sonar im sure we will see it but thats only if it takes off.
its still relitively new.
i know its been around awhile but i dont see the major benifit.
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SToons
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Re:This just in .... X2 DOES NOT SUPPORT VST3 ..per Robin
2012/09/10 03:34:49
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firefly9000
The benefits of 2.4 vs 3 may be debatable... so may the fact that Steinberg threw 3 out there to gain something.
But IF Waves and other companies go the 3 route, then this is a mute debate. I get a chuckle out of people that keep repeating proudly on this thread their solution: THEY are doing just fine without these plugs so you should too... (why didn't I think of that - limiting my creativity, what a fantastic workaround)
Followed by: chuckebaby
what are we really missing with vst 3 ?
a handful of waves plug ins ?
its really not a big deal as far as im concerned.
i can live without it.
*sigh*
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