Middleman
Here's the problem with Danny's approach. He doesn't live on the West Coast so I can hang out with him.

Words of wisdom there my friend. I can't tell you how many times I have heard diatribes from an "expert" on the internet here and over at GS, then listen to their tracks and realize they haven't got a clue.

That can be arranged ya know! :) I'm actually going to be out there either this summer or by the fall. If I end up anywhere near you, maybe we can hang for a day or so. I'd sure love it brother. :)

Grant: no worries man...I may not be as active, but when I see something that I feel could use a little TLC, I won't hesitate to share. :)

John T: Well said on all counts man. I know there are a few things out there that can definitely help, but in my experience, the starting points we can use have never been anything that made me go "wow that sure made a difference!"

I may have shared this story before, but if not, it's definitely a good read for you. I remember mixing my brains out working on songs for weeks, months...it was really a downer. So much so, I didn't want to do this stuff anymore and was pretty much going to just use my studio as my little pre-pro man cave. How could I charge people if I myself wasn't happy with my own stuff? I mean don't get me wrong, I was fair at doing this, but nothing that I would even consider "pro demo quality" which is where I feel my quality is today. I have my moment so of "damn that sounds as good or better than so and so!" but I've accepted that with the gear I have, I'm a pro demo studio that can sometimes give the majors a run for their money. I'm fine with that really.

But as I was doing this and trying my best to learn, my monitors were the biggest part of my problem. I know you've heard me rant about ARC etc, so I won't go there, but part of me knowing what to listen for was having the ability to HEAR that stuff. And, ARC of course made a huge difference in that area.

So I started recording my own album and though it turned out decent, there were things that just weren't there when you compared it to something that was pro done. The bassist in my band at the time was a big time engineer who wound up working with Breaking Benjamin on their first album. He sat me down with my mixes and mixed them in his studio. As he did this, he said stuff like:

"this is what is wrong with this, this is what is wrong with that...this sound shouldn't have even been recorded because of this, on this instrument, we need the compressor to kick a little earlier and the comp you used isn't the right one..listen what happens when we use this one instead. Ok, now you have this blanket of mids on your guitars. I know you like this sound, but listen to what happens when we remove this 640hz...the sound will open up and not sound as congested. Now, you also have some low end issues on this guitar. Listen to what happens when we remove this blanket of ussssssssss in the back ground. There...here's with it in, here's with it out...can you hear what it's doing and how this low end is making a mess of your guitars? Ok, the kick drum...your pushing this frequency and you're pushing the same freq on the bass...you can't do that just because 60 hz gives you the right low end you feel these instruments need. This is why you keep on raising your faders...these instruments are masking bro."

In that little paragraph right there John, it totally changed my life. I had no idea to listen for this low end stuff behind my guitars. Heck, I loved my guitar tone back then and always got major compliments. When he soloed it up, it sounded thin...lifeless, no bass push. He said "right, that's because you're not supposed to be pushing that kind of low end in a guitar. You're walking into kick drum/bass guitar territory and this is why your rhythm guitars aren't heard as much in your mixes."

Stuff like that is an eye opener. However, if he wouldn't have shown me this stuff right there in front of him, I don't know if I would have ever learned about it watching someone else do another mix or read a book. It would never deal with MY problems and issues, know what I mean? I'm always going to create sounds and mixes that work with my instruments. If my instruments I love...which sound great on their own don't work in a mix, I'm NEVER going to get this stuff right unless someone shows me how to deal with my instruments. This is why I do the video lessons I do. It allows people to see just what is wrong with their instruments using the right techniques to control them.

This is why I feel it's soo important to know what and how to listen for something. It starts with learning on YOUR stuff, not someone elses as a test subject, ya know what I mean? I knew what compression was and how to use it, but I never thought at that time, that a different compressor is going to make that much of a difference on a particular instrument. I didn't know about sculpting eq to make a mix work. I soloed everything up individually and made it sound good as an entity. Little did I know, just by doing that, I was totally missing the boat.

Now that I'm more experienced at this, I can of course solo something up and make it work because of knowing what to listen for. But I still try to stay away from that unless I'm honing in on a problem area. The mix itself needs to be treated as an entity....you can't mix all the instruments to sound good on their own. Quite a few people don't realize this and I was one of them.

I can also remember working with my bassist later on after this mixing session I spoke about. I brought hiim a mix that took me 2 weeks to do. He listened to 5 seconds of it and shut it off. He says "ok, here's a pen and paper, write down all the stuff you hear wrong with this mix."

I was pretty upset because I was so excited that I did a good job. I did a horrible job. I wrote down all the stuff I heard wrong and gave him the paper. He reads it and says "if you can hear all this stuff, why did you leave it like this?" The answer...I was mixing through un-corrected NS-10's, no sub, and switching betwen them and headphones. This is where new monitors, a sub and ARC come in...so I'll spare you there. But, in order for me to hear the things I heard at his place, I needed to fix my place.

Once I did all that, I realized I really wasn't the crappy engineer I thought I was. I was decent at this stuff all along...but I was failing because:

1. I didn't know what to listen for in my own instruments

2. My room/monitors were not giving me the proper representation I needed to make the right calls.

So when you look at things this way, it's easy to see how this stuff can make a huge difference as well as an impact on how you end up. :) I don't think any video or book would have helped me at that time. :)

-Danny

Touching on the value of videos or in person tuition over books, yes I agree. I started out doing a three month course in a real studio, taught by a working engineer, back in the mid 90s. I still sucked after it, of course, you don't become an expert at anything in 3 months. But the amount of foundational stuff I learned in that three months saved me years, I reckon.

Yeah, I think it's pretty much time to relegate Ben to the block list. That's what I'm going to do. He's got two modes: utterly insufferable a$$hole, and whiny poor-me complainer. I don't like either, and on top of that, the odds of him ever posting anything I would want or need to know are now confirmed at zero.

Well, thank you. I don't want to overstate my case; I am not Dave Pensado or anything. Far, far from it. I do try to avoid spouting off about things I don't understand, though, and only give advice that I'm very confident about.

So in other words, when mixing, see how much you can achieve doing simple stuff that you fully understand. Don't dive in with all kinds of esoteric trickery you've read about on the internet.

That is about it from here. I've done some things in here that made me go...wha??? Then to undo stuff until I found what it was that happened then I understood a bit more of what it was that I was doing. 

But to actually explain what it was that I done? It is like I have technical word aphasia of some sort

Middleman


I would add some free advice for the OP. Go to Youtube and type in "Pensado's Place". If you have the time listen to all 60+ episodes which are a master class in mixing. If you don't have the time, as they are 1 hour each, go to his site and just review the ITL (Into the Lair) outtakes from the videos. Those are the best sources of mixing information anywhere and they are free. Clearing the middle of the mix is one of his classics.

Know that, mixing is what you do with the tracks in front of you. If you don't have good tracks, you can end up chasing your tail. I would charge you with learning how to capture the source well. If it sounds good after tracking, the mixing process becomes an artistic endeavor versus a mercy mission. Many times a new learner will be challenged with poorly recorded tracks (wrong space, wrong mic, unfocused performance) and then move to mixing while learning all the tools. The chances of success or satisfaction will be very low and your frustration high. Teaching your ear to understand when you have a good sounding track vs an amateur sounding track is important.
 
As makeshift points out. Half the opinions you will get from people on the internet are guys listening on their laptop or earbuds. Mix opinions can be all over the map based on this alone.

I've visited a few web sites that have educational style videos like Pensado's Place. All sorts of music related topics are discussed in detail by experts in the field. 

Surely it is not an inconvenience to "set in" on a few of these master class sessions to learn something.... is it? 


You should not have to listen to all of them to get the information that will help take your mixes to the next level. Most of the seminar videos I have seen on the sites I inhabit (aside from here) are all very aptly named to make it easy to find the right topic I need. 

I've gotten used to the idea that I will have to do the block thing as well...as much as I hate to...

@Danny....I still think you have a BOOK in you!!!

Guitarhacker

Middleman


I would add some free advice for the OP. Go to Youtube and type in "Pensado's Place". If you have the time listen to all 60+ episodes which are a master class in mixing. If you don't have the time, as they are 1 hour each, go to his site and just review the ITL (Into the Lair) outtakes from the videos. Those are the best sources of mixing information anywhere and they are free. Clearing the middle of the mix is one of his classics.

Know that, mixing is what you do with the tracks in front of you. If you don't have good tracks, you can end up chasing your tail. I would charge you with learning how to capture the source well. If it sounds good after tracking, the mixing process becomes an artistic endeavor versus a mercy mission. Many times a new learner will be challenged with poorly recorded tracks (wrong space, wrong mic, unfocused performance) and then move to mixing while learning all the tools. The chances of success or satisfaction will be very low and your frustration high. Teaching your ear to understand when you have a good sounding track vs an amateur sounding track is important.

As makeshift points out. Half the opinions you will get from people on the internet are guys listening on their laptop or earbuds. Mix opinions can be all over the map based on this alone.

I've visited a few web sites that have educational style videos like Pensado's Place. All sorts of music related topics are discussed in detail by experts in the field. 

Surely it is not an inconvenience to "set in" on a few of these master class sessions to learn something.... is it? 


You should not have to listen to all of them to get the information that will help take your mixes to the next level. Most of the seminar videos I have seen on the sites I inhabit (aside from here) are all very aptly named to make it easy to find the right topic I need. 

Hi Herb,
 
I don't think it's an inconvenience to check any of this stuff out. There are loads of things you can pick up everywhere, that's for sure. The problem I have is, none of the videos work with YOUR particular sounds. For example, if we watch a video that shows a high pass on a guitar from 200 hz on down, that doesn't mean YOU need to do that on YOUR sound. But, how much will you need to do and what are the bad sources in your sound? See, my whole point in addressing this is....ok, wait..let me try this another way. :)
 
Ok, so we're in Herb Hartley Studios' this morning and we're about to record a new piece. :) Do you have your own guitar sounds, bass sounds and vocal sounds that you sort of use all the time? Like you know, the sounds that you'd consider the "safe Herb Hartley sounds" you are confident with that you know sort of work?
 
I think it's safe to say we ALL have those sorts of sounds, right? Ok...so you're with me so far. If we watch videos of people working on other sounds, it can give you an idea on what to work on, but it never totally gives you the answers on YOUR sounds. Having someone literally pick apart my sounds forced me to create new ones because the ones I thought were good, weren't all that. But I wouldn't have known until someone pointed things out to me.
 
As you mature in this field, you know off the bat whether or not something is going to work. But, to me I sincerely feel all of this starts with YOUR sounds so you can really get an idea on what you're faced with. If not, we keep on making the same mistakes until we either decide to change up our sounds, buy something new, or someone points out why you may not want to use that sound....know what I mean?
 
So for those having problems with mixing, it starts with the sounds they print. If someone doesn't bring to their attention that those sounds need work or show them where they may need to work, nothing changes until the person changes the sound. When you learn what to listen for, it totally changes the playing field. This is why I can't get much out of those other recording videos unless they deal with some sort of technique that would be "in general".
 
But we sincerely have to learn how to use what we have. This makes us grow so much faster. It also makes you search for different avenues as well as possibly updating your gear where if you don't get this sort of feedback, nothing changes.
 
Like John T mentioned about that quote I made about "liking my sound". That doesn't make it good if it doesn't work in the mix, know what I mean? Sure, I got lucky and it could be fixed that particular time, but I'd never use that sound today...and now that I listen to that old sound, I can hear why. When we are not schooled on what or how to listen to something, it's amazing how much differently we hear once we we ARE a little more schooled.
 
There are quite a few old mixes from the 70's and 80's that I loved my entire life. When I listen to them now, I have to totally ignore the mix and listen to the song. That said, I could also be ruined and am over-analyzing things. But, without failure, when I listen to old stuff I liked, the quality just doesn't do anything for me like it once did. And, the first question I ask myself is "ok, I know the band is huge...I know they are loaded with talent and are bigger than I'll ever be, but would I be happy with those sounds?"
 
If my answer is "absolutely not" in my mind, I've matured as an engineer as long as I can do better. I may not be able to write as good or play as good as that band, but in THIS scenario, we're looking at production/quality. I love Queen, but I'd never shoot for the production they got in Bohemian. And...chances are, because of my way of thinking, I might not ever come up with a mix that is as good. Then again...I might come up with something better, you never know. I actually thought of doing that. Replacing the bass, guitar and drums with my own and leaving Freddie sing on it. I wouldn't have the heart to cut his vocals out and replace them with my own...nor would I be able to hang with that mutant. LOL! But I'd be curious to hear what MY idea of good instrument sounds would be like. I just could never bring myself to do it out of respect. LOL! :)
 
-Danny

Bristol_Jonesey


I’ve been going back through this thread and trying to work out what it was that got Ben so riled as he was in post #24 – and I’ve failed totally.
I honestly don’t know why he attacked you in the way he did Danny – you didn’t even mention him in any of your posts (you’re not the type of guy that does that anyway – all your posts are designed to educate, help others and shed a little light on some of the mysteries of mixing).
I’m beginning to suspect maybe some bipolar disorder, because he’s clearly reading things that nobody else can actually see, so on that basis, I feel a little pity for him.

The facts seem to fit the pattern – the self aggrandisement, the petulant shows of angst, the self-opinionated pseudo-facts that he writes.
All of this suggests a chemical imbalance of some sort.
Maybe I’m wrong, maybe he’s just a grade A A-hole.

I never see where it stems from and then I become the bad guy for fighting back most times. It's just not fair mate...but oh well, it is what it is. Thanks for telling me your thoughts. Sometimes it's good to hear that others see things as I do. I'm never upset when people don't agree with me...but when they spot the obvious and admit what they see, it definitely holds more credibility in my opinion. :)  It's when they see it, ignore it and say "ok both of you stop it" that REALLY makes me angry. Go after the source, not the guy that refuses to take any crap and fights back. Smack a pit bull around enough, you'll lose a hand. Ok, I'm more like a Chihuahua...but still! :)
 
-Danny

Anyway, this is a good thread. Let's forget about Cousin It and stick with it.

Beagle


Danny - these posts are excellent!  thank you for your time.

You've mentioned your tutorial videos here and in other threads.  can we get a link to those?

here's a suggestion:  maybe you should open a service (for pay, of course) to take someone's stems and mix them and video record things as you mix in order to help individuals learn what to listen for.  I personally think that would be extremely helpful to me!  I agree with you 100% - I don't know what to listen for!  but I don't know any way to figure it out other than trying and trying and trying again on the same thing that I have done before - which, obviously  - gets me nowhere!

Hi Reece,
 
You're very welcome and thanks for the kind words! Well, unfortunately there aren't any video links because they are all custom made for each person that approaches me. I never use anything generic and always create from the ground up talking TO the person that hired me.
 
Just what you said is how it works. However, we try not to use stems. What people do is, they send me an entire mix either in wave format or in a Sonar bundle file. From there, I load up their project and run video the whole time. We listen to their sounds first the way they are, and I tell them what's wrong with them and show them various ways we can fix the sounds. I do this until all instruments are accounted for and then we form/sculpt the mix. Compression, various effects, panning, tricks and tips, all this stuff gets covered using your mix, the plugins of your choice (if I have them, if not you need to freeze them or process them) right in Sonar.
 
So it's really fool-proof and you learn with everything you are already used to. I've had a really nice end result with all my students that have stuck with it. Some just needed one video in order for them to "get it". Others want to be a little more complete and have been with me for a few years. It all depends on what you're looking to achieve. But I usually show quite a few things from fixing sounds, resampling or re-triggering sounds, introducing you to plugs I use that you may not have so you can see/hear what they do, different ways to make something work, busses, side chaining, parallel compression, what compressor to use for certain things....the list is huge. But it all depends on what you want to do. I can even concentrate on different techniques as well as working on specific instruments. It's always different and can be completely custom. :)
 
I don't like to give names of the people that study with me as that is not up to me, but a close friend of yours is studying with me now and is making incredible gains in my opinion. I believe you may be working with him on something new right now. :) But he's been a joy to work with as well as Markno who made a pretty incredible improvement after one video. But both of those guys had a clue going into it. They just needed a few fine tuning things as well as being taught what and how to listen for things. Both of them have sent me mixes that were so improved, they don't need me anymore. Mark's last few mixes have been great in my opinion...when he wasn't over-compressing. :-Þ His last VH mix was better than the one I did and closer to authentic than mine...baystid! I'm not afraid to admit defeat! :)
 
But stuff like over compression is nothing to worry about as long as you catch it. He knew it before I said anything. The thing is to make the mix audible and without blatant errors in frequency. We'll never satisfy everyone with our mixes. There will always be someone that doesn't like something or may take a shot at one of the instruments you chose. However, if they just say "well, I didn't like your guitar or snare sound" yet both don't have errors or things that make them sound bad, you're right where you want to be. It's your art, your song, your vision, your instruments.
 
We want to make instruments get along together. To do that, we have to know what frequencies will work and which ones will not. When to cut, when to boost. You always want to be a cutter if possible and save a boost as your last resort. If you have too much treble, you remove it first...don't add more bass. Too much bass, don't add treble. The thing there is, you have to know when to do that and when something MAY need a boost because it's too thin.
 
For example, I recently worked on that mix that James G posted on the song forum. For a one take, all in one track, that was pretty awesome because the performance was so great. However, we needed to cut more than we needed to boost on that stuff because it was a very warm, congested nearly analog sound. So once you remove the mid range congestion on something like that, you can sometimes be left with something that is a little thin.
 
So we then have to boost some frequencies to get back what we lost and it's up to you to sweep through and decide which of those you'll boost that enhance the best. Because it was just an acoustic guitar and a voice, we had to be careful of low end. Nothing under 180 was left in there for the most part because quite simply, it didn't need to be. But if you don't know what to listen for and just take things like "ok, this is a guitar...it needs to be thick...this is a voice, it needs to be equally as thick" you end up with congestion because the key to thick is mid range. But you have to use the right mids and use them in moderation.
 
The source you print also creates this thickness. I think the most asked question other than compression is "how can I thicken up my mixes?" The answer is simply...it starts with the print. If you record with a Radio Shack mic, the sound will only be so big. Each mic literally gives us a sound size. A 421 is going to give you more of a sound size than a Realistic mic. A Neumann is going to give you more sound size than an SM 58. So it's "bigger" coming out of the gate. This is why most studio's have a big mic locker.
 
A big mic on a big voice may be too much. Bigger isn't always better (shh ladies...I can hear you laughin now!) when it comes to mixes. Making things wider can disconnect a mix so you have to be careful there too with all these imagers and excessive pans. They sound great in headphones, but on real monitors...man, it's way too separated and disconnected in my opinion.
 
When Philip and I work together, he's a genius at widening and placing things all over the place. But, if I don't reel him in at times, we can get a mix that sounds a little too separated and it literally can kill your impact. In his case, some simple narrowing fixes everything. But in the case of those in need of thickness coming out of the gate, we need to always concentrate on the source of the print. When you have to make something bigger once you begin to mix it, you either do that for effect purposes or because "hey, this is all I have".
 
Now, we've come a long way with impulses and cab emulation etc. But when that stuff first came out, you couldn't really substitute it for a mic'd guitar cab. The reason being? It sounded too direct...there wasn't any air between the mic/cab to make it realistic and it just had a snarl about it that sounded like plugging a distortion box right into a console. Now days, we have cab impulses that are so realistic that capture a mic'd tone, people can't tell. Seriously...when done correctly, I sure can't tell. But again, there will always be a certain something you gain from the size of a print. (print = recording by the way)
 
Run an acoustic guitar direct and then mic it. Or do both at the same time and compare. The mic'd sound will always smoke the DI in actual sound size. With distorted guitars, this seems to be less important due to all the gain. The more gain we use, the smaller the sound unless you really mic up or impulse hybrid like crazy to form a sound stage. If we mic a clean sound and then kick on some gain using the same mic arrangement, the sound gets smaller due to the distortion. Take a guy like our beloved Frank on the song forum. He has a huge guitar sound all the time. Why? He's not using hyperdrive going through it like I would on my tone.
 
So there are lots of things to factor in really. But none of them matter unless someone points them out to a person. We never grow if we keep on using the same sounds and fail mix after mix. This is why I started doing the video thing. It teaches you how to deal with your sounds. When you learn to deal with your sounds and keep at it, you can then deal with other peoples sounds because you know right from wrong. But without direction and someone literally showing you the differences, you can definitely spin your wheels for years before this stuff starts to give you any sort of enjoyment.
 
I look at it this way...if I love this field and cringe everytime I go to mix something and end up unhappy, my days are going to be numbered doing this due to frustration, right? Ok, we'll try to stick it out...but you can only fall on your face so many times before you say "ok Yoyo, you mix this for me man...please? I can't take no more!" Though it's cool to do that and James probably appreciates the work, wouldn't it be great if you did it yourself? I've heard your stuff Reece....you always do a nice job too man. All you need is a few pointers here and there so you can tell what to listen for and how to fix it. Honest when I tell you, it's like the clouds parting after a storm when you can just listen to something and KNOW what the deal is. Even if you have a hard time fixing it, at least you know where the problem lies. Sometimes it takes more time to fix things, other times it's instant.
 
Anyway, sheesh...I totally posted too much this morning. Sorry for that. I just hope some of this stuff has been helpful. :) Back to work for me...have a great day everyone. :)
 
-Danny

Sheesh, your posts get better & better man.

Even reading between the lines on this thread alone, I want to go back and unpick my last few mixes & start again.

Take care Danny - I'm sure we'll speak again soon.

Thanks so much Danny!  Yes, I know who you're talking about and I think his mixes have improved 100X in the last few songs!  the one I'm working on with him I think is probably his best mix yet.

I'll send you an email in the next day or two.  take care my friend!

One of the most interesting and refreshing threads I've read here in a couple of years..keep it going guys.