As for critiquing songs, that's a really hard thing to do for me anymore. I have found my honesty is often times not accepted by the majority, so I only show up in instances where I feel the song poster can handle what I have to say. If I can't be honest and be me, I simply "can't be".

I usually post at work (which I shouldn't be doing, but that's another story) and if I'm at home I'll be doing my own music so very rarely venture over there. But one thing bugs me a little - when I see someone post a song and everyone says "wow that was great" "loved it" "amazing" etc. Though it's nice for the poster to read these comments, I see the main point of posting songs there is to get feedback on how to improve. I really don't see the point in saying anything if you have not got some constructive criticism to go with it. I don't think I've ever posted without giving some feedback on what I thought didn't sound right to my ears. Not to say that what I hear is right or not, but every listener has worth in comment, I think.


I get so much more from people who rip my songs to shreds and tell me what's wrong. But some people aren't willing to take the criticism and improve. So be it! Their loss! I embrace it :)

You guys that never critique me nor post songs ... I have little love and respect for, just like Yep.  To each his own I guess

I've only posted a couple of songs in the songs forum and only occasionally critique others. That's for a very good reason and one I mentioned in the first song I posted. I personally don't feel qualified to critique or offer advice.

When it comes to audio techniques I feel I don't know enough about what I'm doing myself to start advising others. I know that, can recognise that so try not to input into threads I know nothing/little about. That'd make me as bad as the posters that roll up on the X1 forum declare this or that crap because most of the time they don't know how to use it. I think the ability to use a program and one's ability at producing the subject matter of that program aren't necessarily interlinked. I know plenty of kids can leave me dead on a motogp computer game but give me a real racetrack and motorbike........

OTOH I do know plenty about how to use Sonar and X1 and so spend most of my time trying to help others get the best out of the program. If that makes me a bad person so be it. If we were all great at the same things it'd make this collection of forums a pretty poor place to visit.

I do get what you are saying about qualified to comment but again just because someone doesn't post in the songs forum it doesn't make them unqualified, any more than posting stuff makes someone qualified. IMHO there's some great posters on the songs forum - Danny Danzi, JamesYoYo, TMidi, Bob Oister are amongst a few that spring to mind. I wish I could produce stuff like that. I have heard a couple of things JohnT has done (by accident elsewhere IIRC) and his productions are really good as well, but AFAIK rarely if ever posts in the song forum. It's not compulsory is it?

As it's been mentioned there are a couple of posters that post with the greatest authority on everything yet whatever I've heard from them is even worse than my stuff. At least I know where I am in the audio world pecking order and it's in a completely different position to the "how to use X1" pecking order position.

Isn't that the point of these forums though? Bring your knowledge to the table to share, and leave what you do know behind for others to learn from? That's what I try to do as do many others, just it's not always the same knowledge being brought in or taken away.

BTW a big thanks to all those people that do share their audio production knowledge and help me get better, it is working even if it doesn't always sound like it.

MakeShift

I personally don't feel qualified to critique or offer advice.

When it comes to audio techniques I feel I don't know enough about what I'm doing myself to start advising others. I know that, can recognise that so try not to input into threads I know nothing/little about.

 
I have much the same feelings FBB.  I consider myself more of a songwriter that is just trying to learn my way around the Engineering side of things.  I visit the forum daily, absorb all of the great information that you all discuss, then when time allows, go back and try to apply the things I am learning.  I try to never take offense to any crit that I am given, because I am really trying to learn this stuff. 
 
I do find it interesting that a lot of folks at song forums don't post unless they have something corrective to say about the Engineering side of things.  From a songwriters perspective, some times it is just nice to hear that some one likes the song, or what parts in particular they like or don't like.  I think it overall helps a songwriter to know what and what is not clicking with other people.

Same here. I used to post a lot in the songs forum to comment on what I liked in a song but after some of the resident experts here implied that was a worthless thing to do, and if people couldn't offer "real" feedback, then they should keep their comments to themselves. Boy, I sure felt self-conscious after that. And after reading some of the comments about people chiming in when they don't know what they're talking about, now I feel self conscious about offering any advice at all. I think I'll just go back to lurking and let these experts handle it. The forum seemed to be doing just fine before I started posting here. I guess all this arguing and infighting has worn me down. Time to take a break and concentrate my energy somewhere else.

Chappel

MakeShift

I personally don't feel qualified to critique or offer advice.

When it comes to audio techniques I feel I don't know enough about what I'm doing myself to start advising others. I know that, can recognise that so try not to input into threads I know nothing/little about.

I have much the same feelings FBB.  I consider myself more of a songwriter that is just trying to learn my way around the Engineering side of things.  I visit the forum daily, absorb all of the great information that you all discuss, then when time allows, go back and try to apply the things I am learning.  I try to never take offense to any crit that I am given, because I am really trying to learn this stuff. 

I do find it interesting that a lot of folks at song forums don't post unless they have something corrective to say about the Engineering side of things.  From a songwriters perspective, some times it is just nice to hear that some one likes the song, or what parts in particular they like or don't like.  I think it overall helps a songwriter to know what and what is not clicking with other people.

Same here. I used to post a lot in the songs forum to comment on what I liked in a song but after some of the resident experts here implied that was a worthless thing to do, and if people couldn't offer "real" feedback, then they should keep their comments to themselves. Boy, I sure felt self-conscious after that. And after reading some of the comments about people chiming in when they don't know what they're talking about, now I feel self conscious about offering any advice at all. I think I'll just go back to lurking and let these experts handle it. The forum seemed to be doing just fine before I started posting here. I guess all this arguing and infighting has worn me down. Time to take a break and concentrate my energy somewhere else.

I've always found your contributions to be well intended, well structured, informative and usually spot on!
These forums would, in my opinion, be considerably less enriched without your contributions.


Stick to your principles man! Don't let a couple of cyber bullies have their way. 


Besides, don't we all have a duty to help people out? Isn't this really the point of human existence?

I feel everyone is qualified to critique. It just kinda depends on the level of detail your are qualified to give.

That's very true. I was thinking more along the lines of technical advice rather than an opinion on a song.

There's also the time issue. I spend more time on these forums than is healthy anyway and I'd rather be helping out on the X1 forum than anywhere else. I take plenty from these forums in places that I perhaps don't comment in as much, such as this forum for example.

The X1 forum is where I give back a little where I can, hence the videos in my sig. I find that side of it i.e. how to do something in the software very easy. The part I struggle with is knowing when to apply it or what I need to do to put something right. Or sometimes even hearing what is wrong in isolation in the first place.

My last song I posted in the song forum was technically abysmal (and that's being generous) I'd got so involved in it that I could no longer hear how bad it was. It wasn't until I got some great advice on the song forum that I went back fixed it and when I A/B'd the mixes I could then hear how she-ite the first effort was. I thought people on the Song forum were very polite about the way they told me that. My point is I couldn't hear what was wrong until I listened to a 'good' better version. That's why I don't feel qualified to comment on the technical aspects of mixing and such like.

I like to think that my being aware of that and keeping quite is more helpful than giving crap advice.

the most accomplished individuals are not necessarily the best teachers

I actually think it's even more true to say that the best teachers usually aren't the most accomplished individuals. I'd put myself in that category, I think I can teach how to use X1 better than I can use it to achieve anything that's technically as good as some who struggle with the software.

That's almost universally true of most subjects and sports even. Who knows who Hank Haney is for example?

guitarmikeh

FastBikerBoy

the most accomplished individuals are not necessarily the best teachers

I actually think it's even more true to say that the best teachers usually aren't the most accomplished individuals. I'd put myself in that category, I think I can teach how to use X1 better than I can use it to achieve anything that's technically as good as some who struggle with the software.

That's almost universally true of most subjects and sports even. Who knows who Hank Haney is for example?

I think you maybe a litte too self deprecating. I just listened to your track. While not technically full of virtuosity, it has heart and soul. And that means a lot to me. I rather listen to that way more than 80's hair metal band music.
80's hair metal music makes me want to jam pencils in my ears. But that's just my opinion, and that's the point isn't it? My opinion is as valid as the next guy.

Thanks Mike. I didn't mean I think I'm complete rubbish. I'd give up if I thought that, just I'm fully aware that there are a lot of people a lot better at it than I am. I aim to get there one day but whether I do is another matter of course, won't stop me trying though.

I think the point I was trying to make is that nobody knows it all or are good/have natural talent at everything. What I lack in technical engineering ability I make up elsewhere hopefully. As I said earlier that seems  to me to be the point of the forums, bring what I do know and takeaway what I don't. Of course some think they just bring because they already know it all anyway. Those that don't think they need to still learn never will unfortunately. Again that's true in just about everything in life.

Some are stuck permanently in their early teens. i.e. think they know everything but in reality know very little.

Chappel

MakeShift

I personally don't feel qualified to critique or offer advice.

When it comes to audio techniques I feel I don't know enough about what I'm doing myself to start advising others. I know that, can recognise that so try not to input into threads I know nothing/little about.

I have much the same feelings FBB.  I consider myself more of a songwriter that is just trying to learn my way around the Engineering side of things.  I visit the forum daily, absorb all of the great information that you all discuss, then when time allows, go back and try to apply the things I am learning.  I try to never take offense to any crit that I am given, because I am really trying to learn this stuff. 

I do find it interesting that a lot of folks at song forums don't post unless they have something corrective to say about the Engineering side of things.  From a songwriters perspective, some times it is just nice to hear that some one likes the song, or what parts in particular they like or don't like.  I think it overall helps a songwriter to know what and what is not clicking with other people.

Same here. I used to post a lot in the songs forum to comment on what I liked in a song but after some of the resident experts here implied that was a worthless thing to do, and if people couldn't offer "real" feedback, then they should keep their comments to themselves. Boy, I sure felt self-conscious after that. And after reading some of the comments about people chiming in when they don't know what they're talking about, now I feel self conscious about offering any advice at all. I think I'll just go back to lurking and let these experts handle it. The forum seemed to be doing just fine before I started posting here. I guess all this arguing and infighting has worn me down. Time to take a break and concentrate my energy somewhere else.

Aww Chappel, don't feel like that brother. I don't think anyone meant it the way you may have taken it...or...I'd think it's safe to say the majority don't feel that way. I think it's nice to hear from everyone whether they are qualified or not. I mean...the thing to keep in mind there, it depends on what advice (if any) a person may be looking for. When I've shared my songs on the forum, I wasn't looking for advice...I was just sharing the song. That's not meant to say I don't welcome the advice I might receive, but when I post something, it's usually done enough to where I'm satisfied with it or I wouldn't post it at all.
 
For example, we can listen to a song "as a listener" and say whether we like it or not. Yet, from an engineer stand point, there may be other things that can be offered. I try my best to accept something for what it is, not what I feel it should be unless the song I'm commenting on came from someone that I know for sure want's to hear my take. At the end of the day, all the production and techniques aside, the common listener (imho) has a bit more pull than the dude that may be a seasoned pro when it comes to this stuff. We've heard incredibly produced music that wasn't always a good song, ya know?
 
Most of us couldn't pick our own hit song if our lives depended on it anyway. LOL! I have a song on one of my albums that really did well with airplay and royalties. I would have NEVER in a million years thought it would have done as well as it did. It was a song I liked, but not one that I would have EVER thought would get play at all. The songs I would have picked as songs that might do well weren't the ones that were requested live or for radio. LOL! So who better to pick stuff like that? Right...the common listener that may not know anything about production, techniques or the like. 
 
The common listener is the buyer and they'll tell you when something may not be to their liking without commenting on the production aspect. But since this is mostly a forum that deals with how we use Sonar and quite a few are interested in making things sound good from a production stand-point, you're definitely going to get the production comments as well.
 
The problem there is when someone may not be qualified to comment on stuff like that. When we are learning, we need the most accurate comments possible in my opinion or it can send someone on a wild goose chase and they could waste loads of time.
 
For example, I've been into construction for a long time and know a decent amount about it. However, I've always been a helper/grunt worker in that field and would never even try to tell someone what they should do while building their house....and I've helped to build 4 houses from the foundation to the finished product and have done loads of remodeling. It's something I know a little "about" but not something I'd ever offer advice on in a major situation.
 
But never stop commenting man....and never feel self-conscious when giving your opinion. As long as the delivery is good and no one gets offended by "voice for the sake of a voice" type comments (which you've never done) I wouldn't worry about it.
 
The other side of the coin is the extent in which people want to improve their production. I would say the majority that post around here DO want to know how to improve things. But even there, the initial delivery is what needs focus. When I comment on something, I always give the positives in a tune as well as the negatives. Some of the negatives may be subjective and I try to keep those out, but if something sounds blatantly wrong like a kick drum lacking low end or a bass guitar with too much boom to it....or frequency masking etc...I try to always comment on stuff like that because in my opinion, that's no longer subjective to my ears even though it may have been the intent of the writer.
 
At any rate, definitely don't take a break and please don't stop sharing your opinion. There are some people you can help, some you listen to and appreciate...others, you just move on if the song doesn't do anything for you. But don't ever feel self-conscious or not qualified bro. We need more good guys like you taking part. :)
 
-Danny

one paragraph. whew thank you. I get blurry eyed when some blathers on and on and on.
talking about the songs forums and the critiques of said songs.

what would be the proper technique or procedure for review and comment.

first thread then down. but that would place older thread on top and newer threads on bottom??

or

should you review and comment on older threads first then work your way to the top? leaving the newer thread topside. 

I always wondered. 

I just listen to the ones that catch my interest, for whatever reason. Can't be doing with analyzing it too much, it's just a place I enjoy visiting.

Since a few members (no, I'm not going to name them) have lamely ignored the time I took to listen and then comment on their songs, I've just about stopped frequenting the songs forum. And I use to do quite a bit of listening and commenting. I still visit from time to time but rarely listen to any of the regular posters anymore and when I do..., I don't comment or keep it very light. It's my loss as I use to enjoy it tremendously but to tell you the truth, these members I'm referring to above can shove it where the sun don't shine..., and then twist it counterclockwise until they choke. There, I said it, proudly and publicly. 

"foxwolfen"
And like most things in life, we get back what we put into it.

Really? 

"jamesg1213
So..you're denying yourself the pleasure of doing something you enjoy

I'm not denying myself anything at all. The "Songs" forum is certainly not the only place where to have a listen. 

"jamesg1213"
 ... because of a perceived slight by unknown person(s)

It's not perceived, I can guarantee you that.

"jamesg1213"
... who will have no idea that they're supposed to be 'shoving it'.

Whether "THEY" have an idea or not of what they're suppose to do is really not my concern, but the therapeutic benefits have already been felt. Quite a load just came off my chest. 

Interesting choice of words James. 

I listen to songs and try...HAH!! ...to give some feedback..such as THAT is.


I am not a music critic by any means. Nor do I, hopefully, come off as one...if anything my so-called commentary should be seen as something from a hobbyist...