Alegria
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And here's where I'm coming from (cause I've been accused of liking/loving everything I ever commented on..., not in so many words though and certainly not directly). I listen when I'm in the mood to listen. I also focus on the positive, things that were well done, IMHO. And to this day, theirs no production that was so awful that I wasn't able to find something positive to say about it. And if that were the case, I would simply skip to the next one. I've never felt the need to offer false praise. It's always been spontaneous and genuine. I also usually comment on the mix only and how it translate in my listening environment, which is the same as the one I mix in (that's why I usually specify what I'm listening on). It's an environment I've come to trust with literally thousands of hours of use and some pretty solid hardware. I try very hard not to comment on the creative aspects of a song also, as I believe this is very personal and if theirs one area where it would be easy to offend (not intentionally of course), this is it. Its happened occasionally that I've found myself at odds with the majority of comments but, this certainly does not give anyone the right to assume that I've been lying through my teeth about it or that I have a hidden agenda as many have here (self promotion and all that sort of thing). A song is a glimpse into the composers soul, and some have literally poured all their emotions into the making of it. You'll never see me knock it down even if I was unable to find anything positive to say about it, after many listens. Expectations is what it's all about. If I was critiquing a pro, my expectations would be different and my comments would reflect this. But the majority of contributors in the "Songs" forum are not pros. even though the level of expertise and the results could fool you and me at times, I'm pretty sure that most don't have any aspirations beyond making the best with what they have and hopefully get a pat on the back and a well done (and this includes me). I was there to do exactly that, no more no less. But that's my unique vision on how to handle those murky waters, and everyone should be comfortable in doing this the way they see fit. Mutual respect and all that sort of thing. Bottom line is..., I may not like a particular genre but I can recognize the effort, the musicianship and evaluate the end result fairly accurately (mix-wise) without being an expert. That leaves a lot of wiggle room to find a positive comment and make somebody's day, IYKWIM. 
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jamesyoyo
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Alegria
Its happened occasionally that I've found myself at odds with the majority of comments but, this certainly does not give anyone the right to assume that I've been lying through my teeth about it or that I have a hidden agenda as many have here (self promotion and all that sort of thing).
I didn't assume anyone else is lying; it is simply MY thought process that if someone wants my opinion, then they will have it, not in a rude or dismissive way, but honestly. I hope they receive it with an open heart, but if they can't, so be it.
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Alegria
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I was not referring to you James, even though it may have seemed that way. I have no problems with a knowledgeable member offering technical advice as you do at times. And I certainly don't recall you being rude or dismissive about it either, at least publicly. Thank you for properly quoting and responding to me, as this seems to be a difficult thing to do for many members lately.
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foxwolfen
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jamesyoyo
Alegria
Its happened occasionally that I've found myself at odds with the majority of comments but, this certainly does not give anyone the right to assume that I've been lying through my teeth about it or that I have a hidden agenda as many have here (self promotion and all that sort of thing).
I didn't assume anyone else is lying; it is simply MY thought process that if someone wants my opinion, then they will have it, not in a rude or dismissive way, but honestly. I hope they receive it with an open heart, but if they can't, so be it.
+1 I think you often give excellent advice, even is it is sometime blunt. But then, so am I. I have learned more from you than most. I try to never lie to somebody. If I think the song has some significant problems in performance or production, but there is nothing I can contribute meaningfully, I try, like others to find something to say, even if its more just to let them know I listened. I think even that simple feedback can go a long way to lending moral support to somebody who is trying like me to learn or master the art of music and production.
A scientist knows more & more about less & less till he knows everything about nothing, while a philosopher knows less & less about more & more till he knows nothing about everything. Composers Forum
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FastBikerBoy
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jamesyoyo
Alegria
Its happened occasionally that I've found myself at odds with the majority of comments but, this certainly does not give anyone the right to assume that I've been lying through my teeth about it or that I have a hidden agenda as many have here (self promotion and all that sort of thing).
I didn't assume anyone else is lying; it is simply MY thought process that if someone wants my opinion, then they will have it, not in a rude or dismissive way, but honestly. I hope they receive it with an open heart, but if they can't, so be it.
I always welcome production advice and usually ask for that more than comments on the song. The way I think is that (rightly or wrongly) I can write a pretty good song. Although I'm alway open to comments on that side as well but where I struggle is recording that song and mixing it as well as it can be done, that's what I want advice with. I've only posted a couple of songs but I've always found your posts helpful. I also respect your comments because I think your stuff sounds great (amongst several others on that forum) and my target is to get better. Everyone has to aspire to something or we just stagnate don't we? I haven't found anybody on there rude and TBH after my first attempt at my last song it would have been easy for people to be rude, because the mix was atrocious with way too much compression on everything. Isn't the whole point of posting in the songs forum to get a bit of honest feedback, no matter how negative some of that may be? I can't see the point of my bothering to post something just for everyone to say "wow that's great" when it isn't. In those circumstances I come away thinking that there's nothing needs doing so I don't learn anything. I also deep down know that people aren't being truthful because I can hear the differences between my mixes and others. I can handle someone saying "That's crap because this needs attention etc etc" I'd be peeved at a simple "That's crap" though. Why is it crap? That's what I want to know.
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notnat
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well, I read the whole thread... took almost all afternoon, off & on... what an eye-opener!
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Alegria
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"notnat"
what an eye-opener! Quite true. I've had a few of those not so long ago myself. I can relate.
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Philip
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John T
Feel free to arbitrarily have "little respect or love for" people for flimsy reasons. I imagine you'll reap what you sow. incidentally, I have no view on the qualities of your music, but your song explicitly equating atheists with chIld molestors is not winning me over, conceptually.
John, this was the violation of my privacy. Apparently you got hold of my url and misquoted my song Evo-Trash.
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John T
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Yes, already corrected myself earlier in the thread. It's not atheists you sing are like child abusers. It's anyone at all who thinks evolution is real. A truly charming bit of songwriting.
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John T
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That'll be a song publicly posted on your sound click page, by the way. Privacy my arse.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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The Band19 
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I just finished one I worked on for more than two months. "Time..." I can do one in two days? But sometimes they take two months. I can't say one is better (faster or slower?) It seems that each project has its own timeline.
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jacktheexcynic
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bandontherun19
I know that the guru's here? The mix-masters have knowledge, templates, practiced techniques? And I really look up to a lot of people here.
Then there are others who are really pretty good?
Then there are most people?
And then? There's me...
My goal is to rise to the level of "pretty good." But the time involved? The time is like a job? I put one up recently, it was "OK" I tweaked it quite a bit, it's better, but it's still OK.
I've taken some advice from some people I respect, and had to go back in and re-do some things... And listen, and redo some things, and listen, etc... It's taken a week, and I'm probably 1/2 way there? My problem previously (and still) is that I'm an artist 1st. I record, I track, and when I'm done? I do a quick mix, and try to improve it based on feedback. But what I want to do is put out a 1st mix where people listen and say, "hey that's pretty good!" I have a lot of the performance aspect down. I fight with the mix... But it seems like, if you slow down? If you listen to each track, and listen objectivly, and see what needs an envelop, what needs EQ, and what needs to be "re-recorded?"
I think this is what the people who are really good at it do. Like sniffing a carton of milk to see if it's off? They just have really well trained noses/ears. You can hide a bunch of "crap" in the mix, with compressors, and limiters, etc... But another thing that the people who do this "really well" do, is they separate the wheat from the chaff.. On the way in, before the mixing/mastering.
I still don't understand it "well." But I am trying hard... My next remix, I want a few folks in particular to stand up and take notice. But it takes "hours", "days", "weeks..." I think people who do it quickly are especially gifted.
i haven't read everything in this thread, just the last page. looks like it got interesting.  i'll save my comments on the songs forum for a different post, with the appropriate asbestos applied. i started recording my own music over 12 years ago, and sequencing in the mid 90's, and this is what i've found: you have limited time in your life, and varying degrees of talent in the areas related to recording music. spend your time on what you love to do. if you are an artist first, (and i found i am as well), then spend your time being creative, writing music, playing your instrument, singing, whatever. about 3 years ago, i stopped recording my songs and i started to actually play them, and experience them. i've been doing way more live playing (not my own songs, unfortunately) and i've gotten way better as a musician as a result. the other thing i've learned is that professional mixes sound amazing for two basic reasons: the first is that the people who mix and master them are usually talented and do it all day, every day, and so they can make paris hilton sound like diana ross in the same amount of time it takes us mortals to find a reverb that we're happy with. the second reason is that they have access to great sounding rooms and (almost always) great musicians, so instead of spending weeks trying to EQ/compress/gate/excite/expand/delay/reverb/etc. nasty room sound out of every live track, they are spending hours or days playing with stuff that already sounds good and getting it to sound better. so here's what i would say: if you don't want to be a mix engineer, don't spend more than 5-10% of your "music creation time" mixing. you can get some really good mix advice here, and that is a great thing. but don't let yourself get sucked into the vortex of endless tweaking and re-posting if what you really want to do is write and perform music. i learned this the hard way.
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jacktheexcynic
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so i read the rest of the thread, took awhile... i'll make a couple comments: yep/put up or shut up i will respectfully disagree on the point some have made (and some, more than others) about the need for someone's work to qualify them to comment or post with authority, for these reasons: 1. a long time ago, when i used to comment in the songs forum, i know for a fact that my observations were helpful to some. in fact there was one person who specifically asked me to critique their song, even though their mixes were better than mine ever got. this bit of anecdotal evidence brings me to my next point. 2. mixing your own stuff can often lead to disaster. most people here mix their own music. for some, the endless tweaking and knob fiddling can take a decent mix and turn it into mush, because they are trying to get every bit of their precious into the forefront. hence the trainwreck of EQ/FX/compression choices when a more objective person could dispassionately find one good thing about each track and make it shine, in about 2 hours time. it is very easy to critique something that isn't yours. 3. "print" quality has a lot to do with mix quality. some of us have better rooms than others to record in, and so a less experienced/talented/knowledgeable person can achieve pretty good results in a great sounding room in far less time than a pro stuck with "bedroom-reverb" on every single take. 4. some people are really good at teaching vs. doing, and some can do both but aren't allowed to share because of copyright. i've learned a lot of great theory from yep's posts, still have some of them saved in a word file. i vaguely remember his response to one request for something he'd worked on was "listen to the radio, you might hear it". now this is the internet, so that could have been complete BS. but i never got the BS feeling from yep. so to sum up, kind of, my theory is this: yep is not god, but he knows what he's talking about and is worth reading/learning from. reading this thread, i would say the same about danny. different people, different approaches, both very useful. i think yep was completely uninterested in the songs forum because (and i say this with no malice) he honestly would not know where to start when it came to technical critiques. there were plenty of times when i felt that way, and i'm not very good at mixing. maybe it's a personality flaw. some people can learn and explain things well and not necessarily be that good at doing them, but they understand the underlying principles. i've followed the advice of many on this forum, including yep, and in most cases i got better at mixing because of it. i then turned around and offered those same critiques, plus some i learned on my own, many of which never made it into my own mixes. the songs forum when i first started posting in the songs forum, there were a lot of serious hobbyist/pros there and i considered myself lucky when a couple of them took the time to tear my mix to shreds. i learned quite a bit, but i asked for it, and took things in stride. not all comments were helpful but the ones that were i took advantage of. at that time the focus was on song critiques. i haven't been there in a while but when i left it had definitely turned a big corner into more of a song swap-meet. nothing wrong with that, but the vibe was (and sounds like it still is) a lot more "moral support" than "technical critique". again, perhaps a personality flaw on my part but that's not really for me. so what i would say about it is this: if you want an honest critique, you should ask for it, and prepare yourself for unflattering responses. and for those offering the critiques - spend your time only if you know the person actually wants more than an "atta-boy". i could say more but danny already covered it in his first post in this thread 
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The Band19
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Honest and good critiques with recommendations are better than any good job comments? (for me at least) The good job comments are fun? Everyone enjoys them, but the people with the really good ears, who can give good advice to improve your project, they are the golden juice in which we would all like to shower. Occasionally, someone posts something that you can only listen to and say "wow..." That does happen?
More often with some than others.
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jamesyoyo
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re: songs forum
After a few years, you kinda know what to expect from a lot of folks, both in style and quality.
If they are level 5, let's say, and you know the best they can get to is say a level 7, why critique them like they are at a level 20? Hence, then it is more of an encouraging, moral support kind of post.
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trimph1
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I know when I post my piece(s) I'll be expecting a critique... 
The space you have will always be exceeded in direct proportion to the amount of stuff you have...Thornton's Postulate. Bushpianos
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Janet
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Made it through half the posts so far...thanks again Danny for some great advice and wisdom. And I, for one, can attest to the fact that your instructional videos are absolutely superb. Also that I think I'd learn more looking over your shoulder for 2 days than I have the last 4 1/2 (gasp!) years. Still can't figure out how to get my husband to go along with the idea though....lol (nor do I have the time for it these days anyway...) But thank you. And while we're at it, thanks to all you others who have helped me tremendously. Whether you gave detailed help or just 'atta girl'...whatever...like James Y said...you get to know what to expect from a lot of folks. It works.
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Danny Danzi
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Janetthanks again Danny for some great advice and wisdom. And I, for one, can attest to the fact that your instructional videos are absolutely superb. Also that I think I'd learn more looking over your shoulder for 2 days than I have the last 4 1/2 (gasp!) years. Still can't figure out how to get my husband to go along with the idea though....lol (nor do I have the time for it these days anyway...) But thank you. You're soo sweet...thanks Janet! :) Yeah, we gotta soften him up or something. Maybe for a weekend I can be the "community Danny" and spend a day with him then a day with you. If I can tire him out doing some fishing, hunting or whatever he's into, he'll be passed out when we work on the recording stuff and won't mind. LOL! I can hear him now..."Janet, we ain't havin that strange hair-ball hang at the house and that's final!" LMAO! But we seem to be doing ok from afar with this stuff considering how in depth it can get. Yeah, if you could just watch me do things or I tell you how to do things while working together, you'd get it. It's like...you know when someone drives you to a far away place several times....and no matter how many times you go, you're not quite sure until YOU actually drive it yourself? That's kinda how this stuff works believe it or not. Once you literally do it, you never forget. I have a bud that's been fixing up my house since the last hurricane hit here. In return, I'm recording his entire album and showing him how to use Sonar while we do it. So I show him what to do then I sit him at the console and then tell him what to do. He's learned so much in a month of recording his album at one day per week...it's just crazy. If I could spend a day or two with you, you'd be fine. Maybe someday...maybe we can start the "bribe hubby fund" and pay him off to let us hang for a day. Heck, tell him I'll sit in a straight jacket with a bite mask on my face or something if that will help. Hahahahaha! :) I miss you...in a musical way of course. :) Hope all is well in your world. -Danny
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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Janet
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1. I think it might take more than a day of hunting and fishing. lol 2. True...sessions from afar would do me a world of good too. If I ever get into this again, I'll bother you again. 3. What a lucky builder friend. :) 4. A bite mask?
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Danny Danzi
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4. A bite mask?
 LOL! :) Goes with the straight jacket. :)
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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Janet
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Yikes!
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Bristol_Jonesey
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jamesyoyo
re: songs forum
After a few years, you kinda know what to expect from a lot of folks, both in style and quality.
If they are level 5, let's say, and you know the best they can get to is say a level 7, why critique them like they are at a level 20? Hence, then it is more of an encouraging, moral support kind of post.
There's a level five? 
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Beagle
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Bristol_Jonesey
jamesyoyo
re: songs forum
After a few years, you kinda know what to expect from a lot of folks, both in style and quality.
If they are level 5, let's say, and you know the best they can get to is say a level 7, why critique them like they are at a level 20? Hence, then it is more of an encouraging, moral support kind of post.
There's a level five?
nothing you need to worry about yet, Jonsey! "sounds good" is all you need to hear right now...
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Rus W
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Beagle
Bristol_Jonesey
jamesyoyo
re: songs forum
After a few years, you kinda know what to expect from a lot of folks, both in style and quality.
If they are level 5, let's say, and you know the best they can get to is say a level 7, why critique them like they are at a level 20? Hence, then it is more of an encouraging, moral support kind of post.
There's a level five?
nothing you need to worry about yet, Jonsey!
"sounds good" is all you need to hear right now...
Indeed, Beagle; however, I think the reason for such high-toned critique is maybe the listener's palette is quite up there, but even if that I do think critiques should be somewhat down to earth. And it's partly the fault of the person asking -- or not asking/detailing the kind of critique wanted. "I did this arrangement and I would like one's opinion on it. Keep in mind, that this isn't to outdo/show up anybody." Then of course, you ask about the specifics whether it be in composition and all it encompasses or production and all of it intricacies. I would hate for that disclaimer to be written every-time one is done. Again, you have to be specific in what you want in a given critique. And not all critiques are hurtful; many here are very constructive and helpful. While it is helpful to compare yourself - don't take it literally, but as a guide. To draw a straight line using a ruler, you wouldn't draw on the ruler, would you? Same goes with production/ All the how, why, why nots and numbers - though important things to pay attention to they're just guidelines. Sort of like theory. You learn the ins-and-outs to go out more than in, so-to speak. However, you also learn that you're ITB more than you realize, too. All in all, be specific about what it is you're going for - no matter what "level" you are. As far as the topic goes: it takes time to craft, nurture/nourish anything - whether it's something simple or complex. If you're heart's in it, the time put into will reveal itself. I'm still working on a track from a year or so ago. I don't think it says much (I may be exhibiting modesty, here), but I put alot of time into it for it to not say anything.
iBM (Color of Music) MCS (Digital Orchestration) "The Amateur works until he (or she) gets it right. The professional works until he (or she) can't get it wrong." - Julie Andrews
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Beagle
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Rus - it was just a joke at Bristol Jonsey's expense...
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Rus W
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^ Yeah, yeah, Beags!  Seriously, some do fall into that trap!
iBM (Color of Music) MCS (Digital Orchestration) "The Amateur works until he (or she) gets it right. The professional works until he (or she) can't get it wrong." - Julie Andrews
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The Band19
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I have lots of time to play the guitar, and work on ideas, because my DAW is DAoWn... And may not be recoverable :-( It's bad, (really bad) but in a way? It's good, because I can just sit and enjoy playing, and working on some old ideas; instead of being tied to a project that you're fighting with (trying to track) or tweaking the mix and trying this and trying that, the production, etc... It's somewhat liberating? No DAW, no expectations, no headaches :-) I'm jonesing for it? But I must admit that it's fun just "playing the instrument" and enjoying music. Time well spent.
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LpMike75
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Neat thread with alot of good thoughts. I know these forums have helped me improve a huge amount. Of course, guys like James and Danny have helped lots of us in their posts. James has helped me a ton, even going out of his way to remix one of my songs. Danny has provided me with personal advice on a song which helped alot, plus his countless in depth posts. I am very grateful to have these very talented guys here, who are willing to share their knowledge. On the flip side, I also have gained lots of insight and knowledge from lots of other people on these forums. Music is so subjective, I believe everyone who listens can have a valid opinion. If the bass doesnt "sound quite right". I'de like to hear that from anyone. I'll grant you. James and Danny can probably tell you "why" and help you fix it, but it doesnt negate the first listeners opinion or feedback. I have a tendancy to post positive things when I critique. If something in the mix bothers me I try and make a suggestion the best I can, but otherwise I look for something positive to say about it. If someone is posting that they are going to be releasing an album and needs a close listen to any problems, then I guess that requires looking for problems, but in most cases people are posting for fun and want people to hear their songs so we try and find good in it. Personally, I want harsh critisism because I always want to improve, but not everyone is like that.
post edited by LpMike75 - 2012/07/15 23:51:00
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Kalle Rantaaho
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LpMike75
Neat thread with alot of good thoughts.
Personally, I want harsh critisism because I always want to improve, but not everyone is like that.
I prefer edgy criticism to " yeah...it's sort of OK" as well. It doesn't push me out of balance at all if it focuses on the work in question. I've been more or less involved in acting since I was a kid, also I've had a workshop where I manufactured leather goods of my own design, and of course...a few years gigging with our band. So I've gotten used to opinion-based criticism since I was 8-9 year old. If someone says "yeah...sorry.. but that doesn't play any strings in me...I don't like it" I don't feel offended. I know many, many people who just can not handle those situations.
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Beagle
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- Location: Fort Worth, TX
- Status: offline
LpMike75
. Personally, I want harsh critisism because I always want to improve, but not everyone is like that.
Personally I appreciate honest criticism, but not "harsh." I will always accept and evaluate any constructive honest criticism, even if the person is pointing out flaws in my voice or my playing. what I do not appreciate are "harsh" criticisms. here is an example of what I'm talking about - this was a direct quote from someone posting a criticism on the songs forum. With all the storms and rolling ships, I feel like I am getting sea sick Ah! So that's why I felt like puking when I listened to to the song.  there is absolutely no reason to be an a$$ when critiquing. this is what I consider a harsh response and it is not helpful in any way and it's completley uncalled for. the person who gives responses like this should just stay off of the forum because they're not contributing anything constructive - they are only dumping their filth on others. in contrast, here is a critique of a song of mine which I thought was excellent: Liked the song a lot. I hear what folks are saying at 2:45, but nothing that can't be fixed.
The overall mix sounds a bit muddy to me. It feels like there could be a bit more high in a certain range, but I can't put my finger on which one. It could be an effect of Soundclouds conversion though, that's happened on a few things I posted on there, that's why I stopped using them and went to Box.net.
Something isn't right with the bass at 19 seconds and the timing of the bass in general seems off to me, or there is a quick attack on a compressor dipping the volume a tad too much perhaps? It sounds maybe like you were trying to get the kick and bass to play nice together?
There's a lot going on in this song and it sounds like it was a bear to mix. All in all I really liked the mix, the song, and all the performances. he stated what he thought needed to be fixed in the mix, he asked questions and he told me what he liked about the song and mix. THAT is the way we should be critiquing each other.
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