Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk
What is your particular concern?

Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk
We try to keep up the best we can but it's possible we miss a post. What was your question?

Thank you, Seth and Andrew for responding.  I do mean this with all due respect.  Beepster is on the right track with my concern regarding the monthly payment option (see below).  In the event, for instance, membership is interrupted for lack of a monthly payment (maybe a lack of funds), the most important functionality of SONAR (save, save as, etc.) would be lost and so would new work for that missed period.  Even if the member would later continue payment (a month or so later), the 12-month calendar restarts.  This is when the prior investment would be lost.  Now, since many users have been waiting for fixes and feature improvement, like ACT, for instance, and such fixes never come then the value of that investment (over time) has become greatly diminished (despite any new features).  In this scenario a member is obligated to continue monthly payments in hope of such fix(es) being released or otherwise, lose hope and cut losses.    As clearly stated in my post referenced, we have been waiting for further development and have been putting our trust in the Bakers for quite a long time.  I am one of those user who will be upgrading in hopes of legacy features will be further developed (and fixed); which, I would prefer over new features.
 
If I may take this opportunity to suggest/request, how about, say, after three months of payments, no matter what happens to a membership there after, that member is guaranteed SONAR Artist to keep with full functionality.  That way the membership, although temporary, is not a complete loss and SONAR (Artist) remains fully functional.  I am taking this from a Professional or Platinum membership.
 
Kind regards,
 
Living Room Rocker

Beepster
I'm thinking maybe this...
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/3153847
 
but I'm not really following the reasoning based on the context because in that thread I pretty much described the best way for a skeptic to "protect" themselves. The month to month thing just is what it is and that's what it is... (an extra option). I don't see how it potentially "screws" anyone more than the old model...
Meh... what do I know. I'm just a Beep.

 
I guess you missed my point all together then, Beep.  Actually, your "best way," as I mentioned in a reply, opens up the possible scenario I described.

...wicked
Well, the repost of your concern didn't contain an actual question, and in this quote above you also fail to reiterate it. So, I suggest you remember the importance of staying on point and providing all the information needed to avoid the knuckling of you head, so to speak. (actually that's a reminder to look up the etymology of the word "knucklehead" for myself)
 
The rest of it...well the Bakers should be commended for handling this particular uproar. They all carried themselves with great decorum and tons of info. Though I have to admit I wish I was a fly on the wall at Cake HQ sometimes. :-)

Please reread my post and Beepster's link.  I was staying on point and that is why I didn't go off subject.  My request in this particular thread was to define "troll" and "knucklehead".  So I am confident I am not knuckling myself.  Just explaining myself in response to the OP and other post as concisely as I can.  Hence, I was vague on the (mentioned) point but explicit in my expression.


Kind regards,
 
Living Room Rocker

Living Room Rocker

Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk
What is your particular concern?

Andrew Rossa [Cakewalk
We try to keep up the best we can but it's possible we miss a post. What was your question?

Thank you, Seth and Andrew for responding.  I do mean this with all due respect.  Beepster is on the right track with my concern regarding the monthly payment option (see below).  In the event, for instance, membership is interrupted for lack of a monthly payment (maybe a lack of funds), the most important functionality of SONAR (save, save as, etc.) would be lost and so would new work for that missed period.  Even if the member would later continue payment (a month or so later), the 12-month calendar restarts.  This is when the prior investment would be lost.  Now, since many users have been waiting for fixes and feature improvement, like ACT, for instance, and such fixes never come then the value of that investment (over time) has become greatly diminished (despite any new features).  In this scenario a member is obligated to continue monthly payments in hope of such fix(es) being released or otherwise, lose hope and cut losses.    As clearly stated in my post referenced, we have been waiting for further development and have been putting our trust in the Bakers for quite a long time.  I am one of those user who will be upgrading in hopes of legacy features will be further developed (and fixed); which, I would prefer over new features.
 
If I may take this opportunity to suggest/request, how about, say, after three months of payments, no matter what happens to a membership there after, that member is guaranteed SONAR Artist to keep with full functionality.  That way the membership, although temporary, is not a complete loss and SONAR (Artist) remains fully functional.  I am taking this from a Professional or Platinum membership.
 
Kind regards,
 
Living Room Rocker
 

This probably hasn't been addressed directly before, because it is not in the plans. For example, if I stopped paying my car loan after 3 months, I wouldn't get to keep a lower version of the same model, that I'm not on the hook to pay for. If an Artist user subscribed for 3 months, he's paid $30, while a Platinum user would have paid $150. In this instance it's not really fair to the Platinum member as they paid 133% more for the same software. 
 
If someone is commercially using the software, in a mission critical setting, the tools should be built into the price they are charging customers. The user knows that SONAR will go into demo mode. The imperative is on them to secure their customers data. I would make sure stems, mixes, raw tracks, and maybe even OMF's were saved before I let my subscription lapse. If the customer wanted something else later, I'd charge them enough for another month of access.

I think I'm starting to see where my confusion is. The whole point of my thread was to illustrate how the new model cannot be worse than the old model unless you REALLY go out of your way to MAKE it worse.
 
I think LRR is expecting it to be BETTER than the old model (which it is IMO) except how HE thinks it should be better. That's a big difference. I was merely addressing the specific concerns of those who thought they were being forced to pay in advance for unreleased features. Not digging down into all the infinite scenarios of the month to month users.
 
I personally would not go month to month in any scenario other than to maybe do a month trial to see if the current version was baked to my liking before going all in on a year's membership.

Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk
If an Artist user subscribed for 3 months, he's paid $30, while a Platinum user would have paid $150. In this instance it's not really fair to the Platinum member as they paid 133% more for the same software.

Have I misunderstood something here? They are 'not' the same software so why would you say this?

Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk

Living Room Rocker
If I may take this opportunity to suggest/request, how about, say, after three months of payments, no matter what happens to a membership there after, that member is guaranteed SONAR Artist to keep with full functionality.  That way the membership, although temporary, is not a complete loss and SONAR (Artist) remains fully functional.  I am taking this from a Professional or Platinum membership.

This probably hasn't been addressed directly before, because it is not in the plans. For example, if I stopped paying my car loan after 3 months, I wouldn't get to keep a lower version of the same model, that I'm not on the hook to pay for. If an Artist user subscribed for 3 months, he's paid $30, while a Platinum user would have paid $150. In this instance it's not really fair to the Platinum member as they paid 133% more for the same software. 
 
If someone is commercially using the software, in a mission critical setting, the tools should be built into the price they are charging customers. The user knows that SONAR will go into demo mode. The imperative is on them to secure their customers data. I would make sure stems, mixes, raw tracks, and maybe even OMF's were saved before I let my subscription lapse. If the customer wanted something else later, I'd charge them enough for another month of access.

Thanks, Seth.  Nonetheless, we are not talking "loan" here, but membership.  Further, in the 3-month example, the Platinum member would have already enjoyed SONAR in that time.  As for the Artist member, I don't know of a comparable consolation.  But that is just what I am referring to, a consolation as opposed to a loss (even for the Platinum member in this scenario).
 
To your other point, I work with musician starting out and/or starving, if you will.  These musicians do not have income from paying customers as a studio or engineer might from clients.  I've been trying to convenience people like this to buy and use SONAR.  Not just for their own benefit, recording on their own, but for mine so that once they need my help it will be easier for me to step in and not have to convert or transfer the recordings.  Now that there is a perceivable means to obtain SONAR at an affordable price, this is making it a bit of a hurdle in the pitch.  I know that musicians, like many I work with, don't have the funds to throw at new ideas particularly when it is not directly connected to writing and/or playing music for them.
 
I really hope you understand where I am coming from and consider these potential users.
 
Kind regards,
 
Living Room Rocker
 
P.S. On another note, I am disappointed in my fellow members on this forum.  These attacks on me are unwarranted and should be individually addressed by the monitors, as expected.  Okay, I got that off my chest.

I think people are just getting hung up on the "membership" name.  I'm sure most people are thinking of this like joining a fitness club.  I either pay a month at a time, and quit when I want, or I pay for a whole year at a lower price.
 
As Seth pointed out, this is like financing a car.  You are buying a product and services for a years time.  You either pay upfront or in monthly installments where you will pay more.  You don't own the product until you've made 12 payments.
 

Basically if you are paying for less than 12  months IT IS RENTAL!
Otherwise it's yours.
 
Membership? \ subscription? ... Forget the terminology...

If someone is using Sonar commercially, as was suggested, the price of the gig should include the subscription money (if a pro would even use the subscription rather than the prepay option). I agree about the lawsuits and fists on the nose but it is really up to the engineer's professionalism to have a working DAW when this is a steady source of income.

If this is not a commercial venture but a hobby or part time venture, then what is really at stake? No 20 bucks this month to use the DAW means you do something else this month. Buy back in next month. If this is really a big priority I believe the 20 bucks can be found.

The whole thing seems very fair to me. There are more payment options than there ever were before and the "subscription" is way more generous than what comparable deals from large software companies tend to offer. Except for Waves, which is quite similar, and gets a lot of flak on this forum, ironically.

Living Room Rocker
P.S. On another note, I am disappointed in my fellow members on this forum.  These attacks on me are unwarranted and should be individually addressed by the monitors, as expected.  Okay, I got that off my chest.

Wait... are you including me in that statement?

P.S. On another note, I am disappointed in my fellow members on this forum.  These attacks on me are unwarranted and should be individually addressed by the monitors, as expected.  Okay, I got that off my chest.

 LRR point out where you have been attacked and I will deal with it. 

 
 
Living Room Rocker
 
P.S. On another note, I am disappointed in my fellow members on this forum.  These attacks on me are unwarranted and should be individually addressed by the monitors, as expected.  Okay, I got that off my chest.


Living Room Rocker, I sure hope my talking about Knuckleheads wasn't taken as talking about you. I have no problem at all when a member in good standing is trying to work some things out or get some questions answered. Truthfully I kind of tune the whole discussion out cuz I didn't have any answers and it seemed like you a few others were able to handle it. I always considered you one of the good guys and still do. My whole issue in this thread was people who have not been here before , coming in asking a few odd questions and not even waiting around to get an answer. I'm sure you will get your concern answered. If I could add anything to help, I would be glad to do that.
 

Living Room Rocker
P.S. On another note, I am disappointed in my fellow members on this forum.  These attacks on me are unwarranted and should be individually addressed by the monitors, as expected.  Okay, I got that off my chest.

 
Quote? I scanned the whole thread..

BassDaddy
 
 
Living Room Rocker
 
P.S. On another note, I am disappointed in my fellow members on this forum.  These attacks on me are unwarranted and should be individually addressed by the monitors, as expected.  Okay, I got that off my chest.

Living Room Rocker, I sure hope my talking about Knuckleheads wasn't taken as talking about you. I have no problem at all when a member in good standing is trying to work some things out or get some questions answered. Truthfully I kind of tune the whole discussion out cuz I didn't have any answers and it seemed like you a few others were able to handle it. I always considered you one of the good guys and still do. My whole issue in this thread was people who have not been here before , coming in asking a few odd questions and not even waiting around to get an answer. I'm sure you will get your concern answered. If I could add anything to help, I would be glad to do that.
 

You didn't attack anyone. Nor did Beepster or as far as I can tell no one else attacked LRR. 
 
However, if some one did and I missed it please let me know who and where on this thread. 
 
 

Hey, Beep and Randy, within your own post I hope you see just how I felt when I made my initial post (which still has not been addressed as posted).  Nonetheless, Beep, I do appreciate our discussion and, in particularly, that you had my back.  That was really swell of you.  I apologies for this late response, but I really had to get back to work and I rarely spend much time on forums as it is.  Just as you did, I hope others consider who the person is when responding and singling she/he out (rather than "ganging up"). 
 
So I hope addressed everyone even if I have not replied personally to each one here.
 
Kind regards,
 
Living Room Rocker

Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk]
...
Yes, I definitely get the angle that you're coming from. I had to use free tools or my friends DAWS for a long time, until I had the cash to grab SONAR 6. Another option for your new musicians would be Music Creator. It's feature set is very close to SONAR's. Timing a purchase with a STEAM sale could net you a full DAW for under $20. It's sort of the forgotten step-child to SONAR, but it's really good. 

 
Thank you so much, Seth.  I sincerely appreciate your understanding. 
 
For all others:  My personal aim was not that SONAR was more attainable for me, personally, but to "sell," if you will, SONAR Pro or Plat to my clients so that we can share projects and ideas much easier.  For that reasion I was excited when Gobbler was integrated into SONAR (previously I used dropbox).  I have some of my client using SONAR Pro and it is working out well.  But for those who are struggling it does require more time to work with them (which I do not charge since they already have tight budgets if at all). 
 
See, I travel up and down California since I do have clients in San Diego (even in Arizona) and the SF area.  Fortunately, I have commercial work which sustains me.  When I work with struggling/budding musicians, I don't just give them a rate and then watch them leave when a session is done.  I believe in the independent artist so I give as much as I can to them so they can develop not only as an artist, but to be more independent with the ability to do more on their own.  Since SONAR is my primary DAW software, I teach how they can work with it to capture and work on their ideas.  In this instance, they win, I win and Cakewalk has another customer.  Yeah, sure Music Creator (which I have passed out to my client before) and Artist can cover the basses, but I cannot share what I have done within their projects while they are on another program.  If they have Pro or Platinum (now), then they can look into the project deeper and learn how it works.  Remember, my clients don't all live or work in my immediate area so I hope I can cut back on travel time. 
 
Considering the 12 month term or SONAR reverts to demo mode is where my pitch falls a little short because if they can't maintain monthly payments, they lose that money with nothing for it. This is what discourages them from biting.  If there was some kind of consolation like maybe the lesser version after a number of months (like three as I suggested), or a plugin, then not all is lost and my client still has something.  Goodwill remains between Cakewalk and the new customer and I am excited because I can work at a deeper level with them.  Again, a win win win. 
 
Never expecting the Bakers to chime in, discussion with follow users does prove beneficial.  Now that Seth has come to the discussion, I am grateful.  If Cakewalk might consider this, it could make a big difference for many others.
Kind regards,
 
Living Room Rocker
 
P.S.  Keep in mind, this has been an on going conversation which has developed further along the way.  Also, sorry, Randy.  I didn't mean to take your thread off topic.