A dejavu moment.

Rain

ba_midi

Jim, as rhetorical as it may be, there still are consequences to the types of issues a software has.

An example is this "on the fly" (or what has long been called gapless) workflow.   For some, not having a gapless workflow would be intolerable.  (I suspect most of the big pros, for example).   For others it has little impact.

The same can be said about serious hangs and crashes.   Some simply won't tolerate it (at least not on a regular basis) and others don't have the same demands.

Automation issues are another area where Sonar has lagged and is only now playing catch up.    For some it's ok 'as is' and others think it's not very dependable at all.

How all this translates into the "pick your poison" is very subjective as we all know (rhetorical statement) ;)

The odd thing is that you sort of develop reflexes after working w/ Sonar for so long - I'm constantly expecting an audio engine error of some kind when performing certain actions in Logic, like a chain reaction.

Typically it'll be: ok, either I stop playback, perform this or that action and start again, or I skip a step: do whatever I need, the system will stop by itself anyway and I'll restart. In Sonar, this used to be routine. In Logic, it's like there's 2 steps missing. 

I could live with it in Sonar, no prob. It has other strengths. But it's refreshing (almost disconcerting) to see that  it doesn't have to be this way.

It's interesting you say all that -- as I had quite a few ongoing conversations with a number of Sonar users when X1 came out  and the recurring theme is kind of a "pavlov's dog" thing.   Meaning -- the topmost thing mentioned was this "knee jerk / reflexive reaction" to the program.   Most "expect" it to hang/crash during a project and seem to just accept it (including me).   And this was not just about X1 but almost any version of Sonar.

I think I've learned most of the idiosyncrasies of Sonar (I'm still using 8.5.3) so I seem to be able to get a fairly smooth workflow going without the 'reflex' thing coming into play too often.

But it IS interesting how many I spoke to had the same sense / comment in that regard.

ba_midi

Well I did some recording this weekend and it was like flying a bombing mission deep into enemy territory, getting a big one hung up in the bomb bay, having two out of four engines shot out, one by flak, and one by fighter action. Fuel was leaking badly, my crew who thought they were on their last mission had just learned that the length of a tour had just extended from 25 to 30 missions and Charlie in the tail had taken on a bad bout of flying sickness. We made it back to base but with no landing gear and the remaining two engines cut on finals. I got the boys back home but the crate needed some bodywork done. Now that's how a mans DAW should work. It was exciting. :-)

Funny Jon

Sorry Billy, I went all Nicolas Cage there for a moment...

I have also been a Cakewalk user since the early days - Pro Audio 9 if I remember rightly and a Sonar Producer user since then..

I love the program and all of the instruments ( Thank you Rene - we miss your pure genius ) but I have to say that X1 Pro has been a bit of a pig...

It was a grand design that we were all excited by,but the many bugs have been a real burden in a professional environment..No crashes but plenty of crap that should have been sorted out in the Beta stages...

I reported some issues and the development team gets back to me and says "Yes - we have identified the problem" and then the case gets closed because there is no reported action...Then I check the issues that have been fixed in the updates and I can't see that the issues have been fixed at all :(

Like a few other Sonar users have said,for the first time since Cakewalk Pro Audio 9,I am starting to play around with Reaper...I don't want to learn another platform because I know Sonar so well,but X1 has been a turning point for me...

I hope that Cakewalk really does get X1 running smoothly and bug free because it has so much potential,but as it stands,it's back to 8.5.3 x64 for me and a little more time with Reaper 4.
 
Reaper is a surprisingly good platform with a very small install and it loads faster than a speeding bullet...That makes me think that the program is extremely well coded....

While Cakewalk is getting the engineers onto their DAW can they please bring back Rene to develop their virtual instruments...No offence to the other developers,but Rene was the genius who made it all happen and he would also be the real inspiration for the instrument line to move fowards :)   Amen

Well, if anything is to be learned from history...

10 years ago, Cakewalk came up w/ an entirely new flagship product, a total departure from the previous Pro Audio line. During those last 10 years, many new things were added, some issues and behaviors weren't the object of as much as attention. Cakewalk proved that they didn't want to be left out of the race and really delivered in terms of features. 

10 years and 9 (or 8 1/2) versions later, they once again re-invent the wheel and start afresh - hopefully making their product more appealing to potential customers but frustrating a few long-time users in the process.

During those same ten years, Pro Tools went from version 5 to 9. In spite of all the additions, it's actually amazing to see how consistent the GUI has remained and how they really only built and refined on top of what they had. 

Cubase went from SX1 to 6. Like PT, they built and streamlined.

Logic went from 5 to 9, like PT. In fact, 9 came out 2 years ago and still receives free updates (last one posted today). Logic carried A LOT of awkward legacy features, supported tons of different standards, and it must have been one heck of a job to streamline and make easier to use. But they did it. 

Things like the Environment, which were overly complex and nightmarish to a lot of users are still in there, available for advanced users and tweakers, but implemented so cleverly that you don't have to mess w/ them if you don't want to. 

By all standards, Cakewalk move fast. All in all, they're doing a great job at integrating new features that users are asking, but the backdrop and the things that are less glamorous (i.e. a gapless audio engine) are often overlooked. And even if I see how the new GUI can be a step in the right direction, it's somehow sad that this had to be a total departure from Sonar which had all the potential to be streamlined (it seems, from an outsider's perspective at least.)  

It works for some - and lots of those things aren't crucial in many scenarios. But working w/ other apps for a while makes you realize that the little things don't necessarily have to be scarified and that a certain sense of continuity is actually nice. 

Rain


Well, if anything is to be learned from history...

10 years ago, Cakewalk came up w/ an entirely new flagship product, a total departure from the previous Pro Audio line. During those last 10 years, many new things were added, some issues and behaviors weren't the object of as much as attention. Cakewalk proved that they didn't want to be left out of the race and really delivered in terms of features. 

10 years and 9 (or 8 1/2) versions later, they once again re-invent the wheel and start afresh - hopefully making their product more appealing to potential customers but frustrating a few long-time users in the process.

During those same ten years, Pro Tools went from version 5 to 9. In spite of all the additions, it's actually amazing to see how consistent the GUI has remained and how they really only built and refined on top of what they had. 

Cubase went from SX1 to 6. Like PT, they built and streamlined.

Logic went from 5 to 9, like PT. In fact, 9 came out 2 years ago and still receives free updates (last one posted today). Logic carried A LOT of awkward legacy features, supported tons of different standards, and it must have been one heck of a job to streamline and make easier to use. But they did it. 

Things like the Environment, which were overly complex and nightmarish to a lot of users are still in there, available for advanced users and tweakers, but implemented so cleverly that you don't have to mess w/ them if you don't want to. 

By all standards, Cakewalk move fast. All in all, they're doing a great job at integrating new features that users are asking, but the backdrop and the things that are less glamorous (i.e. a gapless audio engine) are often overlooked. And even if I see how the new GUI can be a step in the right direction, it's somehow sad that this had to be a total departure from Sonar which had all the potential to be streamlined (it seems, from an outsider's perspective at least.)  

It works for some - and lots of those things aren't crucial in many scenarios. But working w/ other apps for a while makes you realize that the little things don't necessarily have to be scarified and that a certain sense of continuity is actually nice. 

Wow NAILED IT

Interesting thread and certainly a new (mixed) direction for a lot of users.

X1 here no longer plays well with older projects... thankfully 8.5.3 is installed still and continues to function well with those older projects. The new recording project is going into X1 and thankfully is going well with no crashes in front of the new 'biggest thing'... for me, X1 still promises and provided an improved workflow and my sincere hope is that the C release brings us all back into harmony. The other options simply aren't as appealing for those of us who have stayed with CW for some time.... there were reasons in the first place that are mostly still valid.

If Cake do indeed drop the ball I for one will be shocked as their track record doesn't support this.

Cheers all.

Skyline_UK


Thinking about the tenor of threads since X1's launch it seems to me that feelings here it have moved through various contradictory but very understandable stages, mostly mirroring my own:
(1) Shock and awe - at the initial scale of re-design to emulate some competitors' look and feel and thereby attract their fans.  Recording magazines' reviews seem to be gushingly in favour and predicted Sonar would now achieve a higher place in the pecking order.  Ok, can't be bad then.
(2) Initial clunkiness - big frustrations at bugs and doctrinaire changes from 8.5 that actually made some features harder to find and use.
(3) CW start fixing bugs - ok, no acts of contrition about the rushed launch but CW pretty good at fixing things, give them a chance.
(4) Frustration mounting - try out other DAWs just in case, I join many in dipping in to Presonus's Studio One.  (Me: Found S1 unsuitable for heavy MIDI users.)
(5) The "Maybe it's me" stage - buy Scott's  'Sonar X1 Power' book and the Groove 3 DVD.  Get down to some serious studying.
(6) Something's still wrong - lots of X1 now make sense and the GUI is certainly a lot tidier than 8.5, even though docking is not as useful as CW think, but many things still take longer and leave you wondering 'why?'
(7) Fixes too slow - it's getting on for a year now and not a lot's happening.  Hot Fixes dry up.  Seems like sorting things out is taking some heavy lifting as far as computer code is concerned.
(8) CW staff showing frustration - natives getting very restless on the forums, maybe CW feel like shouting at us now: "You WILL get it, just try HARDER darn it!!!"
(9) Hang in there - CW have an excellent track record with us long standing users and I really, really want to stay with X1.  The bakers will sort things out and we'll all look back on this one day and laugh. Let's see what X1c brings.
(10) You know, I think I need to have a lifeboat ready just in case - I buy Reaper, start learning it.
 
   

Ha!  That's a pretty funny take ;)   Might even be true.

One other period I saw happen:
- Users who loved X1 even WITH the bugs and defended like it was the greatest thing since slice bread start to bring up their own "issues" slowly but surely, yet still beat the crap out of others for being negative.

;)

- Users who loved X1 even WITH the bugs and defended like it was the greatest thing since slice bread start to bring up their own "issues" slowly but surely, yet still beat the crap out of others for being negative.

 
For some, X1 is (overall) working pretty well.
That doesn't mean it's perfect... or can't be significantly improved.  
 
In all seriousness, when I look at the alternatives (for a main DAW), I don't see any single app that fills all my needs.
You name it... and it has some serious limitation/s
 
Here's a very brief list:
-ProTools 9 (x86, no offline bounce, no per-clip realtime processing)
-Studio One Pro (lack of more esoteric MIDI, no per-clip realtime processing)
-Cubase 6 (no per-clip realtime processing)
-Live (x86, lack of advanced editing/mixing tools)
-Reaper 4 (lack of more esoteric MIDI)
-Samplitude (x86, combersome UI, cost)
 
All these tools have some incredible features... and some major head-scratchers.
If I had to move to another DAW application, I suppose it would be Cubase 6.
All in all... I still much prefer X1... and I'm glad I'm not in a situation where a switch is necessary.

ba_midi

Rain


Well, if anything is to be learned from history...

10 years ago, Cakewalk came up w/ an entirely new flagship product, a total departure from the previous Pro Audio line. During those last 10 years, many new things were added, some issues and behaviors weren't the object of as much as attention. Cakewalk proved that they didn't want to be left out of the race and really delivered in terms of features. 

10 years and 9 (or 8 1/2) versions later, they once again re-invent the wheel and start afresh - hopefully making their product more appealing to potential customers but frustrating a few long-time users in the process.

During those same ten years, Pro Tools went from version 5 to 9. In spite of all the additions, it's actually amazing to see how consistent the GUI has remained and how they really only built and refined on top of what they had. 

Cubase went from SX1 to 6. Like PT, they built and streamlined.

Logic went from 5 to 9, like PT. In fact, 9 came out 2 years ago and still receives free updates (last one posted today). Logic carried A LOT of awkward legacy features, supported tons of different standards, and it must have been one heck of a job to streamline and make easier to use. But they did it. 

Things like the Environment, which were overly complex and nightmarish to a lot of users are still in there, available for advanced users and tweakers, but implemented so cleverly that you don't have to mess w/ them if you don't want to. 

By all standards, Cakewalk move fast. All in all, they're doing a great job at integrating new features that users are asking, but the backdrop and the things that are less glamorous (i.e. a gapless audio engine) are often overlooked. And even if I see how the new GUI can be a step in the right direction, it's somehow sad that this had to be a total departure from Sonar which had all the potential to be streamlined (it seems, from an outsider's perspective at least.)  

It works for some - and lots of those things aren't crucial in many scenarios. But working w/ other apps for a while makes you realize that the little things don't necessarily have to be scarified and that a certain sense of continuity is actually nice. 

I agree - well put, and a good 'overview'.

I would only add that X1 is *NOT* a new/fresh app like Sonar was 10 years ago.   Prior to Sonar, from what I hear and recall, it was almost a DOS type app fit into a Windows environment.

But X1 is still a GREAT DEAL of the 8.x and prior version code.  I'm sure of that.  And perhaps a real "this is totally fresh" App (even if not called Sonar) would have been better (cleaner, less old code to stumble on, etc).

I also believe there's probably still so many mine fields (old bugs) left in there that probably just got band-aids in order to function.

It's also my belief that CW either doesn't have (or chooses not to use) the resources to fix all this stuff so they have to dole out fixes (that management should have never let out of beta).

At any rate, like many have stated here -- I, too, have turned to other DAWS for the first time in 7 years.   That wasn't my fault.

Agreed. That's a paradox I guess. It has the disadvantages of both old and new software. In that sense, as you point out, it might have been an opportunity to just drop the old code.  



Where others seem to be telling potential buyers "here's why you should join us", Cakewalk's strategy seems to be "here's where we all should meet".

Yeah, I know, sorry, disappointed and angry, and hurt and rejected and all that. Day in day out, someone's striking up the violins around here. Sadly not for the purposes of actually making music.

Anybody else bored of it? I'm really bored of it.

I've given up arguing about it. I feel bad for those it ain't working for but it's working here and I'm busy making music, except for when I'm chipping in trying to help on threads obviously.

It's hard sorting through the threads to find those with problems that want them fixed though. Lots of chaff so to speak.

I think we should destroy the people twisting your arms to join these threads immediately!

That thing about how you've been using other DAWS: just as interesting now as it was in Springtime, and all the other times in between. Can't wait for the next time, it's like a movie you can watch again and again.

While I was one of the early "detractors" of X1 the more I use it the more I find to like about it.  And I have no doubt that it will continue to improve...as all other incarnations of Sonar have.  And, believe it or not, I too think it's past time for much of the wailing and moaning and gnashing of teeth to subside.  Cake will provide what Cake provides and it's up to each of us to make of it what we will.  And I'm making plenty of music with it, quirks and all :-)  But I would remind folks that when you read in any given thread what you consider to be tedious lamentations or hand wringing about this or that in X1...there is no one compelling you to respond but your ownselves.  Just a thought, mind.