Virus TI latency issues in Sonar

I recently replaced my trusty Access Virus C with a Virus TI, which promises "total integration" with the host sequencer. In theory, this means that you should be able to control the Virus TI (manage patches, tweak individual sounds, get total setup recall etc) through USB with the supplied Virus Control VST-plugin. However, my experiences with this plugin in Sonar have been less than stellar, as I'm encountering some pretty grave latency issues with it.

Now, it may or may not be my specific setup that's causing the problems - though a number of other Virus TI users are reporting latecy problems as well - but the reply I got from Access support really caught me by surprise:
Apparently, they can't help out, as Sonar isn't on their list of supported sequencers - something I was totally unaware of when I purchased the synth. Instead, they recommend that I use the Virus TI as a regular synth, without the sequencer integration. That gets rid of the latency problems, but this is hardly how I intended to use it when I bought it in the first place.


This is quite sad, as the Virus TI is a great-sounding synth and the total integration element seemed extremely promising. Perhaps it works for other Sonar users and hopefully I'll get it to work in my setup as well at some point, but things don't look to good right now.

So to any Sonar users considering to purchase the Virus TI: Sonar isn't officially supported by Access yet, so for the time being, you're out of luck if you encounter any latency issues with the Virus Control plugin in Sonar.

You can read more about this on the thread: http://virusti.com/forum/index.php?s=1f773f811f91a33bebba3988b8a42bbd&act=ST&f=10&t=390&st=0&#entry3111

(Oh, and if anyone have any suggestions on how to solve the latency issue I'm describing in the Virusti.com-thread, I'd love to hear from you!)

- Asbjoern

Hey Asbjoern---

i dont have a TI, but am seriously considering getting one. a few things.

1.) have you tried using ASIO drivers, and lowering the bitrate from 24 to 16?

2.) the issue definitely follows with delay compensation. when you say the "midi data", you mean you use the notes are placed ahead of where you played them in?

how do other softsynths behave? you noted that albino is also sluggish. is it sluggish from another midi keyboard?

3.) how does freeze work? does it also play ahead or is that bug not fixed yet?

is there a way to turn off the audio io so that ONLY the VC is working and trigger it from another midi keyboard? if the midi out goes via usb then gets echoed back to the usb input to trigger the sounds, then this could be a problem.

i wonder if youve found anyone that is using it successfully with sonar 5?


---------shane

Read a review in one of the magazines (not sure if it was Keyboard), but the reviewer mentioned problems like the original poster mentioned here. So, it's not your setup that is the problem. There is also a problem with pops and crackles as well with the unit even when used in standalone mode. Now to hear it won't work with Sonar? Major bummer.

Hi Ceulis

I tried using the analogue outs in the Virus Control plugin, and yes, the recording latency is then fine. Problem is that playback timing is quite untight, and the rest of the plugins are still affected by the delay compensation that the Virus Control plugin adds (ie they sound sluggish). So this approach unfortunately doesn't work well in my setup - but thanks for the suggestion and your input, though!

One trick I heard was to use the USB-output for playback and the analogue outs when you want to record. I really don't think this is the way to go for several reasons. First of all, you have to decide whether you want to record or playback on a particular track (so you essentially have to change the settings each time you want to either playback or record).

Also what do you do when you want to record additional parts to a track which already has midi data on it? You can then either choose a) to have latency while you're recording (if you use USB output) - but stable playback of what's already in the track, or b) have no latency while you're recording (if you use analogue output), but the existing midi data on the track will have bad timing.

Another problem is that this still doesn't solve the latency added by the delay compensation required for the Virus Control-plugin to work.

And if you disable latency compensation for the Virus Control plugin, all midi data recorded for all softsynths sound ok while you're recording - but the actual midi data is positioned ahead of where you played it.

Oh well, this is quite a tough one to solve as things stand now - at least in Sonar.

- Asbjoern

Mystp,

Your post is right on. I think Access got their side of things right now in the lastest VirusTI OS, there's no crackles, and all the timing is great. BUT, due to the the high-latency it's unusable in Sonar with delay-compensation on.

I know exactly what you mean about the OTHER plugins also being delayed, I think it's horrible. Who cares that you can set the TI's outputs to non-USB if your other VSTs still have a 1/2 second latency. ;)



I use my TI in stand-alone MIDI mode, and am not happy about this...



-Ido

Idoben2: Correct, there have been no changes as far as TI Sonar-integration goes, even with the latest update - and that just plain sucks.

soundsubs: Yes, the 1.2.3 update is indeed an improvement for stand-alone usage, but nothing's changed as far as Sonar-integration is concerned.

I just got word back from Access regarding the Sonar issues, and they can't say anything about when the Virus Control (VC)-plugin will be functioning correctly in Sonar. They're currently working on ProTools and Digital Performer integration, apparently.

So to sum up: The TI is working well in stand-alone mode with the latest firmware update. However, the VC plugin (a *major* selling point for the TI) is practically useless in Sonar as it stands, and there's no word on when this will be addressed - so bear that in mind if you're a Sonar user and you are considering the TI.

- Asbjoern

ido: Good to hear - hope you get a positive response from them!

For what it's worth, I spoke to Ron Kuper about it a while back, and he said that he'd talked to Access about the issues. Doesn't seem like anything's come of it yet, but let's hope Cake and Access can work out a solution.
It'd seem somewhat silly to ignore the potential TI sales to the fairly large Sonar user base, after all.

- Asbjoern

Hi Alex

that sounds good - let us know if you need help with testing etc!

- Asbjoern

Folks,

I wanted to assert that in my experience, the Virus TI is working great with Sonar. I am here to share a way of working that can help answer questions raised in this thread and dramatically improve the experience of using Sonar and the Virus TI.

And yes I created many of the presets for the TI, but I'm here as a legitimate Sonar user and not some kind of Access stooge.

The thread begins with a complaint about latency. The latency that's being described is inherent to the design of the TI as a plugin reliant on DSP which is never fewer than 2 hops away via USB. And please, let's not steer this towards a discussion of why firewire or USB 2.0 would be better in this regard, as it is covered well elsewhere: when the TI was being developed, these didn't fit its pricing model.

This "limitation" of inherent latencey is also the source of the Virus' ability to provide the benefits of both hardware and software at the same time, and with the correct techniques described below, I don't t find it limiting at all.

One or more writers then note that the TI is virtually latency-free when using the Virus' analog outs and Virus Control. This is correct.

In response, however, another adds that while this provides great "standalone" results, it seems to not work well in the context of playback against other plugins. This is also correct, in that you can't send delay compensated instructions to the hardware and then monitor with the source of the delay dramatically reduced by a routing shortcut; it makes the rest of the mix feel late!

Between these ideas lies the answer, a hybrid approach as follows: when a user wants to record the TI and hear their performance, they should monitor the current multitimbral part via the analog outs. When they want to hear the synth played back with perfect timing, they should switch back to and monitor via the USB outs.

And, because of an update which was released subsequently to this thread's beginning, this no longer requires ANY menu mousing. In the most recent version of Virus Control, notice the small "D" icon each PART of the multitimbral
stack. This button provides a ONE CLICK shortcut to instantaneously enable the selected part for Direct Monitoring at the analog outs (whilst recording). When the D is switched off, the part reverts to the selected outputs, presumably a delay compensated USB 1+2 pair.

And yes, as the later authors note, certain other small problems are entirely solved with the latest OS (currently 1.23).

I am in fact right now working on a Sonar 5 track which uses the TI for bass, pads, and synth hits against a bed of stylus RMX, DFHS, RMIV, Kontakt, and a suite of guitar related sims and fx. The TI recording perfomance and playback timing of this setup seems just right for me (a 25-year semi-professional musician) and the direct monitoring output option is a godsend when instances of too many other CPU intensive plugins force my overall ASIO latency to an unbearable 256ms. In fact, I often record on the Virus even those parts I wish to be played back in Kontakt or some other instrument... A hidden "bonus" of the TI.

Hope this helps, If this post doesn't seem straightforward enough for you, I would be glad to help answer any specific questions here. I may also put together a tutorial covering this and other TI Power User tips.

-m@

Bottom line for me as it stands is that while TI and Sonar integration has been improved, I'm still not finding it usable for any other scenarios than where the TI-VST is used as the sole plugin, which is, to be honest, extremely rare.

An interesting read. I'm a TI Polar owner and your experiences parallel mine, for the most part. In order to be able to use my TI to it's full potential and functionality I ended up using Cubase. There were just too many issues with how Sonar hosted VST instruments and Cubase hosted the TI VST with no problems.

Another Polar/Sonar 6PE user here experiencing similar issues. mystp - thanks for the heads up regarding the OS2 - I didn't get any notice from Access that this was released. I'd like to know if Cakewalk and Access are coordinating an effort to resolve some of these problems.

Well, we can always hope. I've asked Alex Westner what came of the testing they did when they got hold of a TI back in September - but have yet to hear back from him. Hopefully they'll work out a solution so the TI with Virus Control can get to work properly in Sonar.

- Asbjoern

CakeWalk,
Do you have any information regarding this? I'm getting my TI tomorrow.....

That stinks! Well, I'll see what I can do anyway. I should be getting my TI tonight.

I'll post my results in a few days......

ORIGINAL: cryophonik

however, if you want to sequence Virus parts and bounce them to an audio track, you'll have to go the MIDI/audio track, rather than the TI for now.

I don't understand this. Can you be more specific? I apologize, this is my first hardware setup. I've been all software until now.

I can't figure out how to record audio from the TI now. Keep in mind, I'm connected via USB exclusively.