WTF, what's with my timing?: SOLVED

Wicked,

Just a guess, but are you using and PDC plugins on your Master Bus, for example?
In another thread I mentioned that having certain PDC plugins on my Master Bus caused similar results.
One plugin that seems to need a lot of PDC is Perfect Space, but there are a few others that need higher buffers (in their settings) to function within Sonar.

ORIGINAL: ...wicked

So I have this project, it's got a drum loop groove-clipped, and a bunch 'o MIDI in there too. I tried to quantize a percussion track to get a tight layer and it's not in time. Latency is set at 2.9ms (ASIO4ALL).

So I said "grrr" forget it. I fired up a mic and recorded myself playing the part in on my little egg shaker. Mmm, sounds good.

Played it back, a little off!

Okay, so I used AudioSnap and quantized it and it holds together a LITTLE better but still weird.

What's with my audio and MIDI timing? I understand latency, and I think I understand PDC. If I'm recording in and sequencing MIDI this should be happening anyway, should it?

Just a little confused on the basic timing stability of my DAW.

Do you know what your IgnoreMIDIInTimeStamp= setting is (it's either in aud.ini or ttseq.ini)
?

ORIGINAL: ...wicked

Thanks Ba,

No, actually I tried investigating something similar and I'm only running a couple of Sonitus compressors, the Sonitus verb, and Waves Supertap. Everything else is dry right now. That's why I'm flummoxed. I mean hey I can understand a handful of ms of delay for conversion but gimme a break! On the upside, I learned how to quantize a clip with Audiosnap... but that's a small consolation for not being able to play something in and have it be where it's supposed to be.

...wicked: Was your timing off? Or was it ahead/behind? I have been complaning about this for years! We did some shaker stuff yesterday too. The weird thing is that is audio was ahead of where it should have been. These slight timing errors can turn a great song into an average one. The timing accuracies of tight music is way more accurate than many think. When a track is off like that you can use nudge to get it close, but it is VERY difficult to get it "in the pocket". I always look at the sound card when people post this stuff, thinking it might have something to do with it. I have a Layla 24 /WDM mode. I had a drummer in yesterday and he mentioned several times that the timing of the recording was not right. We had to shift most of them back a little. I have seen the recording +/- thing but how would I know how much and how do we test to see if it is always the same?

Max Arwood

I'm also having timing issues and thought it was b/c I'm too inebriated when recording but I have the same problems when sober. I have to do what dstrenz suggested or else my midi and audio tracks are out of synch.

If I use an old fashioned 4 track cassette recorder w/ a metronome recorded on track 1 to keep time to, I don't have any timing issues, so I know it's the DAW

Is there a way to tell what plugins need/use PDC?

Are there any settings in Sonar 7 that need to be adjusted in Options Menu, AUD.INI, TTSEQ.INI, CAKEWALK.INI, or XRayExclude.ini?

I know there are a ton of suggestions in the Readme.rft but there are so many I don't know where to start.

I have tried recording w/ a MOTU Express XT, Emagic MT4, PreSonus FirePod, FireBox, FireStudio Project, Line 6 Pod XT Live, Bass Pod XT Live and Pod X3 Live.

ORIGINAL: ba_midi
Do you know what your IgnoreMIDIInTimeStamp= setting is (it's either in aud.ini or ttseq.ini)
?

I'm so sorry, I totally missed this post.

What exactly does this little string do? Ignores my playing data timestamp?

Also, what clock synchronization setting do you have in Sonar (Options::Audio::Advanced Tab) Wicked?

ORIGINAL: Jose7822

Also, what clock synchronization setting do you have in Sonar (Options::Audio::Advanced Tab) Wicked?

Good point - he should be set to "AUDIO"

I'm not having general timing issues like you are, but one thing I noticed is that Sonar 7.0.2 on my system plays the audio metronome slightly behind the beat given by Stylus RMX's drum kick, but ONLY when recording. On playback, the metronome syncs perfectly.

I haven't done enough investigation to know whether this is an issue with the metronome during record, or if playback of the virtual instruments is different during record.

However, one thing I know is true:
If I record midi to the audio metronome, my midi shows as late in the prv (which of course it would if the metronome playback is indeed late). If I record midi to a kick track from Stylus RMX (with metronome off), my midi shows as on time in the prv.

Very annoying.
So, I don't use the Sonar metronome anymore as this completely negates its purpose in life.

You wouldn't, perhaps, be recording to the metronome?

- zevo

Another thing to consider is adjusting the timing of your recordings in Sonar by performing a loopback test and offsetting the buffers by a certain amount according to your measurements. Even with ASIO's auto latency compensation (introduced in S6, I believe), you still need to manually offset it to get sample accurate results. Not having sample accurate recordings becomes noticable as you start adding tracks to the project and then you end up with timing problems like this one. This could also be part of the problem.

.
. 
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UPDATE:  Sonar 8 and above now have a MUCH improved ASIO latency compensation that barely needs any offset.  So the 'ASIO only' method with the formula does NOT apply here anymore (only to Sonar 6 & 7). 
 
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Alright guys! These are the updated steps to get sample accurate recordings:


ASIO only (for Sonar v.6 and v.7 exclusively)


1- Download CEntrance to your HDD. This is a free utility used to calculate roundtrip latency: http://centrance.com/products/ltu/

2- Plug a cable from any analog Output of your audio interface to any analog Input of the same.

3- Run CEntrance and choose your ASIO driver and Sampling Rate. The Buffer Size/Latency should come up automatically (it doesn't matter what it is set to).

4- Hit the "Measure!" button. On the bottom you'll see your measurement results, write down the one shown in samples (we don't need the ms one). Also write down the Buffer Size/Latency used.

5- Open Sonar and navigate to Options::Audio::Advanced Tab. Write down the ASIO Reported Latency number found at the bottom right of the screen.

6- Now use the following formula:

(CEntrance roundtrip latency) - (ASIO Reported Latency) - (Buffer Size/Latency) = Manual Offset

7- Enter the result in the Manual Offset box found under Options::Audio::Advanced Tab in Sonar. Click "OK".


WDM and ASIO:


1- Plug a cable from any Output of your audio interface to any Input of the same (remember them).

2- In Sonar, insert SD2 (preferably a tight kit with no room sound) on a totally empty project and create one measure with 4 quarter-notes with the Snare or the Kick Drum (anything with a fast transient will work).

3- Make sure the timing is tight by Quantizing if needed and then Bounce to Track the SD2 synth track (Edit::Bounce to Track). For simplicity, bounce to a Mono track.

4- OK, now make sure the Audio/MIDI metronome is OFF and delete the SD2 track. All we need is the bounced mono track containing the Snare or Kick hits. This track needs to be in perfect timing since it will be our reference track.

5- Create an Audio track, set it's Input to the one you have the cable connected to and the SD2 Bounced Track Output set to the output you have the cable connected to. Start recording on this new track.

6- When finished, right-click on Sonar's time ruler and choose the option to display "Samples". You might wanna disable Snap to Grid as well.

7- Now you have to zoom in as far as possible (keeping both tracks visible) and compare the offset of the two tracks in samples. Look for the peaks of the waveforms, they'll look squarish so it makes a landmark easy to spot.

8- Once you've calculated the offset, insert this number in the box that says "Manual Offset" under Options::Audio::Advanced Tab (bottom of page).

9- Confirm that the timing offset is correct by re-recording the reference track and comparing it to this newly recorded one.

10- Make any adjustmenst until you're satisfied.


Important: Lower the volume on your speakers/headphones before performing this test. Also, make sure Input monitoring is NOT enabled in the Audio track. It is assumed that you have correctly Profiled your soundcard before the test (WDM only).


Once set, you don't have to change this number even if you change the Buffer Size/Latency. You do need to figure out the offset amount for each driver mode (ASIO/WDM) if you use them for recording though.

This test doesn't apply to playback, only recording.



HTH 
  
  
  

  
  
 

Cheers to Jose for the detailed instructions!
Cheers to you for solving your problem :)

ORIGINAL: ...wicked

ORIGINAL: Jose7822
Anyways, if you've never done a loopback test this is how to do it:

Well well, this appears to have solved the problem!!

359 samples later things are starting to get a little more synced up. Thanks so much Jose!

ORIGINAL: Jose7822

ORIGINAL: ...wicked

Um... that sounds great. What's that mean in English?

I guess this is what I get for switching from WDM to ASIO4ALL? New settings to deal with.

Alright . It's actually pretty easy to do, it just sounds complicated. FYI, this also applies to WDM drivers but with ASIO the timing offset is less due to Sonar's ASIO Latency Compensation feature which is different from PDC (Plugin Delay Compensation). The first applies to recording only while the second applies to both playback and recording (i.e. for those plugins with look-ahead features, convo reverbs, etc).

Anyways, if you've never done a loopback test this is how to do it:


1- Plug a cable from any Output of your audio interface to any Input of the same (remember them).

2- In Sonar, insert SD2 on an empty project (with just a Master Bus in it) and create one measure with 4 quarter-notes using the Snare or the Kick Drum (anything with a fast transient will work).

3- Make sure everything is tight by Quantizing if needed and then Bounce to Track the SD2 synth track (Edit::Bounce to Track). For simplicity, bounce to a Mono track.

4- OK, now make sure the Audio/MIDI metronome is OFF and delete the SD2 track. All we need is the bounced mono track containing the Snare or Kick hits. This track needs to be in perfect timing since it will be our reference track.

5- Create an Audio track, set the Input to the one you have the cable connected to and the Master Bus' Output set to the output you have the cable connected to. Start recording on this new track.

6- When finished, right-click on Sonar's time ruler and choose the option to display "Samples".

7- Now you have to zoom in as far as possible (keeping both tracks visible) and compare the offset of the two tracks in samples. The waveforms will look squarish so it makes a landmark easy to spot.

8- Once you've calculated the offset, insert this number in the box that says "Manual Offset" under Options::Audio::Advanced Tab (bottom of page).

9- Confirm that the timing offset is correct by re-recording the reference track and comparing it to this newly recorded one.

10- Make any adjustmenst until you're satisfied.


It is a long process to explain but it goes by quick once you do it, so don't be intimidated. Hope this helps!

I did something similar to this and I got really weird results. I recorded the metronome to an audio track and I realized that the track was offset by a different amount of samples depending on how long I recorded the audio metronome for. I also noticed that the offset was different between the different beats in each measure. This was especially true when I was at a different tempo than 100. I have to admit that I am not at all confident with how Sonar places the recorded audio.

From my experience with Sonar, the audio metronome does not playback right in the pocket. Thus recorded tracks do not match up with the grid properly.

All of these problems leave me usually nudging the newly recorded tracks until it feels right. Although Sonar added the offset, I don't think they have completely solved the timing issues. I can even hear the timing issues on some of other Sonar users projects. It is definitely something everybody should be aware of and something that Sonar should look farther into.

All the information in this post should be put in a post at the top of this forum, so everyone can read it and it's easy to find. The Loopback Test instructions are perfect and should be put in the Sonar Manual near the top or in the help file under Getting Started. The only thing I would add to it would be to make sure you turn down your volume almost all the way and make sure input monitoring isn't on in Sonar or your Audio cards software, so there are no feedback issues.

The Audio Metronome timing problems need to be fixed b/c now I know why I was having so many problems w/ my recordings.

Are there any issues in general like this with just recording audio tracks into sonar with rme fireface 400? and recording guitar into sonar with vsts
playing?

Yeah, what a difference 359 samples make!

I just hope I don't now start finding ALL my old project are mangled and need retroactive timing help.