Beepster
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/07 15:05:40
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There seems to be very little info regarding SITs... or the info is very well hidden. Any searches through the index on Simple Instrument Tracks or Instrument Tracks or any of the other things I tried comes up with nothing except how to put one into the project and some vague general blurbs on basic usage. I'm starting to realize why they confused me so much when I first started out... the info just isn't there.
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Grem
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/07 15:10:00
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sharke
You're right, it doesn't make any sense when you take the reasons for cloning a track into consideration.
There maybe reasons/situations were this is the desired behavior. I don't clone SIT so I couldn't offer an explanation or example. But from being here in the beginning when simple instrument tracks first showed up, before I use them in my project, I consider first where is this project going. If the project I am starting on is a last phase project, I don't use SIT because I know at some point I will have to convert that SIT to a regular softsynth. So I start with all outputs and on and on, with the SS of choice. However if I just heard something in my head and want a quick scratch pad so to speak, I have no problem using SIT with it's limitations.
Grem
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Beepster
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/07 15:11:34
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Well the forum just completely ate my post. WTH? Anyway... the gist of it was it is next to impossible to find any in depth info on SITs in the manual.
@jb... If it's linked to the same synth the audio section of the clone should still remain independent ideally. I can understand the MIDI portion of it but why would the volume fader or MSR buttons not be independent? It's just bizarre.
Edit: And now my post appears. lol
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jb101
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/07 16:17:41
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Beepster
Well the forum just completely ate my post. WTH? Anyway... the gist of it was it is next to impossible to find any in depth info on SITs in the manual. @jb... If it's linked to the same synth the audio section of the clone should still remain independent ideally. I can understand the MIDI portion of it but why would the volume fader or MSR buttons not be independent? It's just bizarre. Edit: And now my post appears. lol
It is not linked to the same synth, it IS the same synth. It cannot remain independent. There is only one audio out, one synth. You can't have two volume or MRS for the same synth. If you look at the reference in my earlier post, it's in the manual under "copy tracks" (page 120). If you clone a S.I.T. It only clones the MIDI portion of the S.I.T., and the MIDI track is still linked to the original soft synth. It does not insert a separate synth.
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ampfixer
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/07 16:29:21
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Good explanation jb101. Only the midi data is duplicated and all controls are manipulating a single synth on a single audio channel. So there's no way to show it in the track pane without seeing the duplicate controls. Got it. Thanks.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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Beepster
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/07 16:29:27
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jb101
Beepster
Well the forum just completely ate my post. WTH? Anyway... the gist of it was it is next to impossible to find any in depth info on SITs in the manual. @jb... If it's linked to the same synth the audio section of the clone should still remain independent ideally. I can understand the MIDI portion of it but why would the volume fader or MSR buttons not be independent? It's just bizarre. Edit: And now my post appears. lol
It is not linked to the same synth, it IS the same synth. It cannot remain independent. There is only one audio out, one synth. You can't have two volume or MRS for the same synth.
If you look at the reference in my earlier post, it's in the manual under "copy tracks" (page 120). If you clone a S.I.T. It only clones the MIDI portion of the S.I.T., and the MIDI track is still linked to the original soft synth. It does not insert a separate synth.
So it's only cloning the MIDI section... not the audio portion. It's not truly "cloning" the SIT then. It's just treating it like a regular MIDI track... or at least that's the impression I'm getting. Meh. Weird issue.
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jb101
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/07 16:31:23
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It is clearly stated in the manual that this is how it works. It's not really an issue.
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Beepster
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/07 16:44:58
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I'm just saying that being used to dealing with audio tracks when I clone something the whole thing gets cloned including inserted VSTs. Then everything can be manipulated separately from the original. I've looked at SITs as single unit that is a mix of MIDI and audio so to me logic would state that cloning the SIT would clone both the MIDI and the audio as well as the synth or I guess another (incorrect) way I thought it might work if the synth wasn't being cloned that the audio portion would be cloned but point to the synth in the synth rack (and yes I realize now that's not how it works). It just doesn't fit the description of a clone to me. I wasn't using the word "issue" to mean bug. If that's the way it was designed then that's the way it was designed. It's still kind of weird and confusing.
No biggie... well not to me anyway.
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Razorwit
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/07 16:51:14
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Hi folks,
I don't think it's working as the manual states (cloning only the MIDI track to the same synth)...at least not on my system. Here's what happens when I try it:
1. I create a project and create one S.I.T. That is the only track in the project. The synth that is associated with it shows up on both the track and the synth rack.
2. I clone the track
3. I end up with two new tracks, one MIDI and one synth output track. There is, as expected, no corresponding additional synth. So far this is mostly as the manual seems to state with the exception of the additional synth output that is created.
4. Here's the strange part. Now I have two synth output tracks (these are just audio tracks with their inputs set to the same output of the synth), and both of them are linked. Move the fader on one, and both move. Adjust the pan on one and the other one gets adjusted.
This is not the way things normally behave. If I insert a synth into the rack and create two tracks and assign the inputs to both of them to the same synth output they certainly aren't linked.
I understand that jb101 has been saying that cloning a S.I.T. only clones the MIDI track which is then routed to the same synth, but that's not how it working when I try it...
Dean
Intel Core i7; 32GB RAM; Win10 Pro x64;RME HDSPe MADI FX; Orion 32 and Lynx Aurora 16; Mics and other stuff...
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sharke
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/07 20:32:30
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jb101
It is clearly stated in the manual that this is how it works. It's not really an issue.
Of course it's an issue. With all due respect, the fact that it's stated in the manual does not mean that this is how it should work. It could well mean that they didn't have time to fix it before the release, and so they put that in there as a sneaky kind of "warning." There are a lot of things in Sonar that just plain don't work properly or don't work as expected. And it's all very well to say "I can't imagine why that would be the expected behavior but I guess someone knows." The thing is, instrument tracks were clearly designed to make using soft synths as simple as audio tracks, in that one track = one instrument. Let's say you're mixing a tune with live drums, live guitar, live vocals and a soft synth bass. The whole point of S.I.T.'s is to give that instrument track equal status with the audio tracks, and that's how it should be when you're mixing. It's the equivalent of mixing a real synth that's plugged into an audio track. The whole connection to the soft synth is hidden from view, so that you can treat it like an audio track. The MIDI data on the track is the musical part, i.e. the equivalent of the audio waveform. If you didn't want to treat that soft synth like an audio track, then you wouldn't create an instrument track in the first place. So it stands to reason that cloning an instrument track should be exactly like cloning an audio track, i.e. you end up with a completely new independent track that's identical as the first one, with the added step of creating a new instance of the synth the first one was connected to. In an ideal world (if Sonar was 100% finished) then the clone dialog would let you choose which way to do it, but I truly believe that the vast majority of users would need a cloned instrument track to be independent of the original. Think about it this way. If all you wanted was another MIDI track connected to the same synth that a S.I.T. is already connected to, then why wouldn't you just create a new MIDI track and output it to that synth? The audio is still going to come out of the S.I.T.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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sharke
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/07 20:40:47
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Razorwit
Hi folks,
I don't think it's working as the manual states (cloning only the MIDI track to the same synth)...at least not on my system. Here's what happens when I try it:
1. I create a project and create one S.I.T. That is the only track in the project. The synth that is associated with it shows up on both the track and the synth rack.
2. I clone the track
3. I end up with two new tracks, one MIDI and one synth output track. There is, as expected, no corresponding additional synth. So far this is mostly as the manual seems to state with the exception of the additional synth output that is created.
4. Here's the strange part. Now I have two synth output tracks (these are just audio tracks with their inputs set to the same output of the synth), and both of them are linked. Move the fader on one, and both move. Adjust the pan on one and the other one gets adjusted.
This is not the way things normally behave. If I insert a synth into the rack and create two tracks and assign the inputs to both of them to the same synth output they certainly aren't linked.
I understand that jb101 has been saying that cloning a S.I.T. only clones the MIDI track which is then routed to the same synth, but that's not how it working when I try it...
Dean
This is the behavior I see when I start a new project and clone a S.I.T. The funny thing is that when I clone a S.I.T. in a large project that I'm currently working on, I don't get this extra MIDI track at all. I just get one extra instrument track (that's linked in every way to the first). This is what I mean:  
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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ampfixer
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/08 00:45:37
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So the only thing being cloned is the input data to the soft synth. Even though track 27 and track 28 look separate tracks, they're really the same on the left of the pane. The data on the right of the pane can be adjusted for both tracks, while the controls on the left of the pane are linked. Might be useful if you wanted to split midi drums over multiple tracks while feeding a common drum synth.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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sharke
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/08 00:49:16
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ampfixer
So the only thing being cloned is the input data to the soft synth. Even though track 27 and track 28 look separate tracks, they're really the same on the left of the pane. The data on the right of the pane can be adjusted for both tracks, while the controls on the left of the pane are linked. Might be useful if you wanted to split midi drums over multiple tracks while feeding a common drum synth.
But surely if you wanted to have multiple MIDI tracks feeding the same drum synth, you'd just insert extra MIDI tracks and output them to that synth. There's no need to clone anything at all.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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ampfixer
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/08 04:29:23
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Hey, I'm not trying to defend anything. I just wanted to know if I truly understood the problem.
Regards, John I want to make it clear that I am an Eedjit. I have no direct, or indirect, knowledge of business, the music industry, forum threads or the meaning of life. I know about amps. WIN 10 Pro X64, I7-3770k 16 gigs, ASUS Z77 pro, AMD 7950 3 gig, Steinberg UR44, A-Pro 500, Sonar Platinum, KRK Rokit 6
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John
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/08 05:40:05
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The way I look at it is I think you are asking too much from simple instruments tracks. They were meant for quick and very easy usage. I have noticed lots of posts complaining about them because people want them to act as if they were regular MIDI and audio tracks. Clearly they are not. If one needs to do editing or any extra things using them it would be far better to use MIDI and separate audio tracks that have all the power people are looking for.
The key word is simple. When something is simplified it often means you lose power.
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jb101
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/08 06:26:11
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John
The way I look at it is I think you are asking too much from simple instruments tracks. They were meant for quick and very easy usage. I have noticed lots of posts complaining about them because people want them to act as if they were regular MIDI and audio tracks. Clearly they are not. If one needs to do editing or any extra things using them it would be far better to use MIDI and separate audio tracks that have all the power people are looking for. The key word is simple. When something is simplified it often means you lose power.
I think I agree with your sentiments, John. The only thing that seems to confuse the issue is that the cloned track looks like a S.I.T., when, in fact, it is more like a MIDI track. I can see why people would want it to work differently, but it is what it is. As I stated before, I use S.I.T. when I am initially sketching out an idea, but split them into Audio and MIDI tracks when I want to work on them. They are handy, but, as you say, they are simple. A little like me..
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John
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/08 07:03:52
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JB you are anything but simple. You and I agree most of the time if not all of the time. I knew you would see that post as I meant it to be. I thank you for that. Your method is the right method when using SITs One big reason CW allowed us to split them was just in case we needed to do further work on them.
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thebiglongy
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/08 09:43:40
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Sharke, did you say the options you have are for Clone and Copy?
If this is so, then wouldn't it be a copy of the track you would want, rather than a clone?
I, without reading the manual, would assume that a 'clone' would be a copy but with linked parametres, where as a 'copy' would be a copy of the track and everything associated, but without linking.
Clone = Linked
Copy = Unlinked (independant)
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thebiglongy
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/08 09:46:23
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sharke
But surely if you wanted to have multiple MIDI tracks feeding the same drum synth, you'd just insert extra MIDI tracks and output them to that synth. There's no need to clone anything at all.
This is true, it would be easier to create another midi track, but then you would also have to add in the midi/audio fx you used on the other track which would lead to more cpu usage.
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sharke
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/08 11:14:01
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John
The way I look at it is I think you are asking too much from simple instruments tracks. They were meant for quick and very easy usage. I have noticed lots of posts complaining about them because people want them to act as if they were regular MIDI and audio tracks. Clearly they are not. If one needs to do editing or any extra things using them it would be far better to use MIDI and separate audio tracks that have all the power people are looking for. The key word is simple. When something is simplified it often means you lose power.
I guess if they really were "simple" then they would work as expected, and cloning them would result in nothing more than a clone of the track i.e. another instrument track with the same settings.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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sharke
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/08 11:15:41
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thebiglongy
Sharke, did you say the options you have are for Clone and Copy?
If this is so, then wouldn't it be a copy of the track you would want, rather than a clone?
I, without reading the manual, would assume that a 'clone' would be a copy but with linked parametres, where as a 'copy' would be a copy of the track and everything associated, but without linking.
Clone = Linked
Copy = Unlinked (independant)
In the context of audio tracks, "clone" means "copy," and in fact Cake seems to use the words interchangeably in their online help documents. There is no separate option for "copy track," no.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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sharke
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/08 11:17:49
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thebiglongy
sharke But surely if you wanted to have multiple MIDI tracks feeding the same drum synth, you'd just insert extra MIDI tracks and output them to that synth. There's no need to clone anything at all.
This is true, it would be easier to create another midi track, but then you would also have to add in the midi/audio fx you used on the other track which would lead to more cpu usage.
You wouldn't have to add extra audio fx - the output of the synth would be to the audio track of the original SIT and so pass through the fx you already have loaded, right?
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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stevec
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/08 14:28:55
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Personally, I am certainly glad SITs exist since I tend to use them way more often than the traditional method. Other than drums I never seem to need multiple outs for other synths/instruments, and more often than not (by far) I don't need the extra parameter control offered by the split design. That said, I've also never cloned a SIT before. So if I wanted to duplicate an existing part with a different sound (or even a variation of the original) I just add another SIT and copy the MIDI data over. Life's too short. 
SteveC https://soundcloud.com/steve-cocchi http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=39163 SONAR Platinum x64, Intel Q9300 (2.5Ghz), Asus P5N-D, Win7 x64 SP1, 8GB RAM, 1TB internal + ESATA + USB Backup HDDs, ATI Radeon HD5450 1GB RAM + dual ViewSonic VA2431wm Monitors; Focusrite 18i6 (ASIO); Komplete 9, Melodyne Studio 4, Ozone 7 Advanced, Rapture Pro, GPO5, Valhalla Plate, MJUC comp, MDynamic EQ, lots of other freebie VST plugins, synths and Kontakt libraries
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lawp
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/08 14:30:13
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this is exactly the kind of thread where a cake rep could clear up the confusion...
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jb101
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/08 14:34:57
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I'm not sure what confusion there is. It does exactly what it says it does in the manual.
It doesn't work the way some would wish. Perhaps put in a feature request?
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lawp
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/08 14:38:24
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maybe it's misnomer, as it's not "cloning" but just "copying a part of" the source SIT? (& should also be shown as a midi track icon not an instrument track?)
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Beepster
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/08 14:57:45
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jb101
I'm not sure what confusion there is. It does exactly what it says it does in the manual.
It doesn't work the way some would wish. Perhaps put in a feature request?
I actually remembered the little blurb you are referring to after reading your posts but it did seemed to be shoehorned in and for those who find SITs confusing enough as it is and/or those who haven't been as diligent in their manual deciphering... it is indeed confusing. The thing is when folks are thinking about cloning a track they are used to cloning an audio track or a MIDI track which does exactly as the function name implies. The entirety of said track is copied and becomes its own independent entity. With SITs that is apparently not the case and those reading this thread are now aware of that. A brief snippet in the nearly 2000 page manual won't trump what most of us have associated the term "cloning" to mean through endless usage of the feature in regards to more traditional tracks. Not to be rude but frankly I'm confused as to how you are confused about why people are confused. ;-) That said, and perhaps I am missing something here because I don't really use the things, it still doesn't make sense that if there is a separate fader and whatnot available on the clone that they be perpetually linked aside from the fact that Cake did not code SITs with this eventuality in mind. And really it doesn't seem all that illogical to me that people might expect that type of behavior. So no... it's not a bug and yes I'm sure that it was just something tossed in there for those that requested it (which is great) but considering how cloning works on other types of tracks it isn't all that far fetched that folks would be confused by this behavior. As someone who wandered into this program completely new to MIDI the whole idea of SITs actually made my learning curve WAY more difficult because it was a complete wild card and many of the tuts used them. It was only after coming to the forum with my ass in my hand that I learned they were kind of a frivolous addition and that to truly learn how to use MIDI in the traditional sense I should completely ignore SITs. Now that I know more I can see the benefit of them for simple sketching or easy set up but man oh man did they ever make things twisted at the start. So yes... they are indeed a big hunk of confusing when already trying to deal with the already confusing subject of MIDI. Sorry if that's confusing.
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jb101
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/08 16:01:34
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Beepster
jb101
I'm not sure what confusion there is. It does exactly what it says it does in the manual.
It doesn't work the way some would wish. Perhaps put in a feature request?
I actually remembered the little blurb you are referring to after reading your posts but it did seemed to be shoehorned in and for those who find SITs confusing enough as it is and/or those who haven't been as diligent in their manual deciphering... it is indeed confusing. The thing is when folks are thinking about cloning a track they are used to cloning an audio track or a MIDI track which does exactly as the function name implies. The entirety of said track is copied and becomes its own independent entity. With SITs that is apparently not the case and those reading this thread are now aware of that. A brief snippet in the nearly 2000 page manual won't trump what most of us have associated the term "cloning" to mean through endless usage of the feature in regards to more traditional tracks. Not to be rude but frankly I'm confused as to how you are confused about why people are confused. ;-) That said, and perhaps I am missing something here because I don't really use the things, it still doesn't make sense that if there is a separate fader and whatnot available on the clone that they be perpetually linked aside from the fact that Cake did not code SITs with this eventuality in mind. And really it doesn't seem all that illogical to me that people might expect that type of behavior. So no... it's not a bug and yes I'm sure that it was just something tossed in there for those that requested it (which is great) but considering how cloning works on other types of tracks it isn't all that far fetched that folks would be confused by this behavior. As someone who wandered into this program completely new to MIDI the whole idea of SITs actually made my learning curve WAY more difficult because it was a complete wild card and many of the tuts used them. It was only after coming to the forum with my ass in my hand that I learned they were kind of a frivolous addition and that to truly learn how to use MIDI in the traditional sense I should completely ignore SITs. Now that I know more I can see the benefit of them for simple sketching or easy set up but man oh man did they ever make things twisted at the start. So yes... they are indeed a big hunk of confusing when already trying to deal with the already confusing subject of MIDI. Sorry if that's confusing.
I did not know S.I.T.s behaved like this either, as I do not use them like this. In response to this thread, I took TWENTY SECONDS to look it up in the manual, where it stated its intended behaviour. This I did not find confusing. Some people didn't seem to be reading my posts, or found it hard to understand that it is not two sets of controls that are linked, but one set of controls duplicated. Some still don't seem to have understood this. This I found confusing.. As I stated, I can understand why people might think it would behave differently, or might want it to, but S.I.T.s are what they are. I found/find many things confusing about DAW software - I guess that's why they provide manuals.
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stevec
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/08 16:04:34
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I think the real moral of the story here is that we should think twice about cloning. I'll get my coat on the way out.... 
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Barczar
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/08 16:12:12
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I ran into the same problem with a Strings SIT and wanted to have two tracks panned left and right. I found the pan knobs linked. So instead I found I could freeze the track and bounce to a new split mono track. That did the trick.
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