Why are mix controls on cloned instrument tracks linked?

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sharke
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2013/07/07 00:17:38 (permalink)

Why are mix controls on cloned instrument tracks linked?

I have cloned an instrument track. What I want is for them to be completely independent of each other. But what I find is that the mix controls (mute/solo/volume etc) on each track are linked. If I solo one, the other one solos. If I increase the volume on one, the volume is increased on the other. For the life of me I cannot understand why this would be the default behavior, and I can't find a way to stop it. 
 
And just to set the record straight, I am not talking about linked clips! I did a bit of forum searching and every time someone posts this same problem, the answer seems to be "you must have checked the box to link the clips when you cloned it. Just right click on the clips in question and select unlink." This is NOT what I'm talking about 
post edited by sharke - 2013/07/07 12:11:00

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    sharke
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 00:46:08 (permalink)
    The more I look around, the more I'm convinced this is a bug. The X2 documentation on cloning tracks doesn't mention anything about linking the mix controls. 

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    sharke
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 01:02:51 (permalink)
    And just to add: I just realized that it's not just the basic mix controls that are linked, it's EVERYTHING. So when you make changes to the ProChannel and all of your effects on the cloned track, the original is changed as well. The upshot of this is being that the carefully crafted bass sound that took me hours to get right today is now completely gone because I went off in a completely different direction with the cloned track not realizing that it was affecting the original. 
     
    Stupid stupid Sonar. Good God my relationship with this program is on extremely thin ice at the minute.

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    jb101
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 04:31:05 (permalink)
    I have only cloned audio tracks, and this certainly doesn't happen with them. Is it just simple instrument tracks?

    I'm not at my DAW, but will have a look later. Out of interest, can you change sounds on the two synths independently? Is I t only the mix controls?

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    jb101
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 04:31:01 (permalink)
    I have only cloned audio tracks, and this certainly doesn't happen with them. Is it just simple instrument tracks?

    I'm not at my DAW, but will have a look later. Out of interest, can you change sounds on the two synths independently? Is I t only the mix controls?

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    mondaydave
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 10:35:27 (permalink)
    Interesting one this because I have been suffering the same problem but I just put it down to my own stupidity and assumed I just wasn't doing something correctly.
     
    But on reading JB101's post I have tried this today and cloning works fine on audio tracks without linking all the controls such as pan,volume etc. 
     
    However when I clone an instrument track all of these controls are linked making it a royal pain in the arse and pointless in cloning the track as I cant treat it independently of the original.
    Is this how it should be or am I missing something?
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    Beepster
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 10:52:09 (permalink)
    Hmm... I can't remember for sure but when you clone tracks there might be an option in the Clone Tracks dialog to link them (that may just be for clips though). Are you getting that dialog? If not I'm not sure where to enable it... maybe the Track View menus (under Tracks or options?). You may be able to force the dialog open by selecting and cloning multiple tracks at once because I think Sonar needs to ask you about the track count. Not at my DAW but if you don't figure it out I'll check it out.
     
    Oh and I've never had this happen except when I somehow tried to link my clones (which sometimes I want) but for some reason only some of the parameters stay linked. It was annoying.
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    jb101
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 11:25:37 (permalink)
    There are options when you clone tracks, but I can't remember them all, and I'm not at my DAW.

    When you choose "clone track" a dialogue box gives you several options, but off the top of my head I can't think of one that would only effect S.I.T. I will look later if I have a chance.

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    sharke
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 11:31:52 (permalink)
    Yeah there is a dialog that comes up, but it says nothing about linking parameters and controls, only cloning or "copying" them. You can link clips between the two, but if you think about it there would be no point in having two cloned tracks if everything else was mirrored between the two. And yes, this is only the case on instrument tracks - audio tracks are not affected.

    EVERYTHING is linked between the two. If you change a patch on one track, it changes on the other. If you replace the synth on one track, it's replaced on the other. If you delete a plug on one track, it's deleted on the other etc. So if you clone an instrument track like I did hoping to get a basic starting point to experiment with a different mix direction, you're going to screw the original track and so there was absolutely no point making the clone in the first place.

    This is a huge bug and one that falls under the category of "how in the hell did Cakewalk miss that?" Anyways I submitted a bug report.

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    jb101
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 11:32:16 (permalink)
    Just had a quick look in manual. When cloning a S.I.T. a new MIDI track is created, and assigned to the same soft synth. So there you go.

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    Beepster
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 11:33:06 (permalink)
    From the PDF manual on page 1581-2. There is an option to link clips. Not sure if this links parameters as well but try the different options to see what happens.
     
    Clone Track(s) dialog
    The Track view Tracks > Clone Track(s) command opens the Clone dialog box. Use this command
    to copy a track or tracks to a new track or tracks. The Clone dialog box has the following fields:
    Selected Tracks
    This field lists the tracks that are currently selected.
    Clone Tracks
    • Clone Events. Check this check box if you want to copy the MIDI and audio clips in the selectedtrack(s).
    • Link to Original Clip(s). Check this check box if you want the clips in the new track(s) to
    become linked clips with the identical clips in the original track(s).
    • Clone Properties. Check this check box if you want to copy the properties of the highlighted
    track(s), such as the name, output, channel, etc.
    • Clone Effects. Check this check box if you want the new track(s) to use the same real-time
    effects that are patched into the original track.
    • Clone Sends. Check this check box if you want the new track(s) to use the same sends that are patched into the original track(s).
    • Repetitions. The number of tracks you want to create from the selected track(s).
    • Starting Track. The track at which
     
     
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    jb101
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 11:33:17 (permalink)
    It's not a bug, it is intended behaviour, which is why it's in the manual.

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    jb101
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 11:35:48 (permalink)
    My quote is from page 320 - copying tracks.
    post edited by jb101 - 2013/07/07 17:39:30

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    Beepster
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 11:42:36 (permalink)
    While there doesn't seem to be a Control Group option in the Clone dialog what is being described is actually Selection Group behavior I won't paste the entire manual entry (it's long) but it is on page 914 of the PDF manual. Check to see if somehow the track parameters got added to a Control Group.
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    jb101
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 11:55:51 (permalink)
    Beep, have you read my posts? When you clone a S.I.T. it only inserts a new MIDI track, linked to the same soft synth, so the effects are not exactly linked, they are the same effects.

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    sharke
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 12:07:57 (permalink)
    jb101
    My quote is from page 120 - cloning tracks.



    Just read it. That is ridiculous. I guess they could simply call any bug "intended behavior" by putting it in the manual 
     
    Let's take a look at their statement "When cloning an Instrument track, a new MIDI track is created and assigned to the same soft synth as the cloned instrument track." I just tried this, both in the project I'm working on and in a new blank project. In the project I'm working on, cloning an instrument track just creates another instrument track. In the blank project, cloning an instrument track creates another instrument track, plus an extra track that has the track icon Sonar gives to the audio part of the track when you split an instrument track. So I don't know what's going on there - cloning the instrument track gives different results in the new project than the project I'm working on. Also, in this new project, if I split one of the instrument tracks and then select "create instrument tracks" to rejoin them, I get the "Making an instrument track requires that a single audio and MIDI track are assigned to the same synth." So if you split them, you can't rejoin them. 
     
    Anyway, if it's just the case that cloning an instrument track "creates a new MIDI track" then why wrap that new MIDI track up in a "new" instrument track that really has its audio part linked to the parent track? What is the point of having a second set of mix controls that are linked? If the user only wanted to clone the MIDI part of the track, then surely they could simply split the instrument track, clone the MIDI part and then rejoin the original instrument track. The whole point of an instrument track is that you get a single unit which handles both audio and MIDI. So the expected behavior when you clone one of them is that you get a brand new instrument track that is identical to, but which performs independently from the parent track.
     
    So I guess Cakewalk's logic is that if someone wants to clone an instrument track, all they really want to do is to create a new MIDI track with the same clips in it, and have it output to the same synth instance. I'm guessing that this is not what they want at all, and if that's what they wanted then they wouldn't even bother with instrument tracks in the first place.  

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    scook
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 12:08:37 (permalink)
    Never saw the behavior before but I do not use simple instrument tracks. This looks like another good reason to avoid them. You could try splitting the track before cloning.
     
    When something unexpected happens and I want a complete do over without losing the current work, I save the current project in the project folder under another name. Usually the base of the name is the same as the current project with something added to note what happened. It might also be the case that I retrieve one of the copies of the project made by the versioning system to use as the current project.
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    Beepster
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 12:28:00 (permalink)
    Ah... yeah I don't use simple instrument tracks either so IDK. I figured wee were just talking about clones in general. Seems odd SITs would behave differently. Sorry if I added confusion.
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    scook
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 12:33:13 (permalink)
    SITs have always been different. Some people like them and use them. I did not see much value to them when they came out. Even though they have been improved upon in every version of SONAR since their release, they still exhibit strange behavior just like the subject of this thread. If they worked just like an audio+MIDI track that would be one thing but they don't. Why chance it?
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    jb101
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 12:37:47 (permalink)
    I only tend to use S.I.T. when I am sketching an idea out, and replace them with synth and MIDI tracks when I get going. I guess that's why I've not noticed this.

    Mostly I clone audio tracks, e.g. to process a bass part as separately as D.I. and through an amp sim.

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    sharke
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 12:51:54 (permalink)
    Yeah it would seem that instrument tracks have not been implemented properly and there are problems. It's a shame though, because I certainly can see the point of them. When they work properly, it just makes sense to have both the MIDI and the audio part represented by one track. And it's certainly a lot tidier to work with. 

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    sharke
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 12:54:43 (permalink)
    jb101
    I only tend to use S.I.T. when I am sketching an idea out, and replace them with synth and MIDI tracks when I get going. I guess that's why I've not noticed this.

    Mostly I clone audio tracks, e.g. to process a bass part as separately as D.I. and through an amp sim.



    Have you ever tried putting the amp sim on a bus and mixing it into the D.I. track via a send? It means one less track to worry about in your track pane...

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    scook
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 12:58:24 (permalink)
    Yes, it would be nice if they worked at well and the audio+MIDI solution but they don't. As to what makes sense, that is a judgement call. For myself, cosmetics don't matter nearly as much as project stability.
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    scook
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 13:07:47 (permalink)
    sharke
     
    Have you ever tried putting the amp sim on a bus and mixing it into the D.I. track via a send? It means one less track to worry about in your track pane...



    Yeah but that just adds another track to the bus pane instead. At least the track pane has folders which allow one to group the tracks into a folder and collapse it. I have used both clones and sends sometime both at the same time, it may depend on sunspot activity as much as anything else as to what method gets used.
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    jb101
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 14:21:46 (permalink)
    scook
    sharke Have you ever tried putting the amp sim on a bus and mixing it into the D.I. track via a send? It means one less track to worry about in your track pane...


    Yeah but that just adds another track to the bus pane instead. At least the track pane has folders which allow one to group the tracks into a folder and collapse it. I have used both clones and sends sometime both at the same time, it may depend on sunspot activity as much as anything else as to what method gets used.


    As Scook said, I prefer to have two bass tracks in a folder, which are then routed to a bass bus, where I often add the 4K bus compressor, and maybe EQ to help blend them together.

    For me this ends up less cluttered and less confusing for simple brain.

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    Grem
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 14:37:14 (permalink)
    Back in the day:

    Simple instrument tracks were a feature added due to users requests about a simple way to add a ss, then route it to a midi track, then route it to an added audio track.

    It was meant to be different.

    It's not a bug.I don't believe it is anyway.

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    sharke
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 14:41:11 (permalink)
    Grem
    Back in the day:

    Simple instrument tracks were a feature added due to users requests about a simple way to add a ss, then route it to a midi track, then route it to an added audio track.

    It was meant to be different.

    It's not a bug.



    I understand that SIT's are "meant to be different" from audio tracks and MIDI tracks - they are different by definition. It's not clear why cloning should behave differently with them. An instrument track still represents the same thing as an audio track in the context of your mix, i.e. it's "another instrument part." Therefore I see no reason why anyone would have a different motive for cloning them. 

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    Beepster
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 14:49:16 (permalink)
    So have we figured out how to unlink the parameters though? I mean it doesn't really make any sense to have cloned SITs follow every change. All that would do is just make things louder and even if you did it just to have the same synth setup for a different performance within the project not being able to mix that new performance independently... well, that's just weird.
     
    IDK... maybe I'm missing something. I usually am.
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    sharke
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 14:52:29 (permalink)
    Beepster
    So have we figured out how to unlink the parameters though? I mean it doesn't really make any sense to have cloned SITs follow every change. All that would do is just make things louder and even if you did it just to have the same synth setup for a different performance within the project not being able to mix that new performance independently... well, that's just weird.
     
    IDK... maybe I'm missing something. I usually am.




    As far as I was able to establish last night, there is no way of unlinking the controls once you've cloned an instrument track. You're right, it doesn't make any sense when you take the reasons for cloning a track into consideration. 
     
    I guess I should have read the manual's entry on cloning instead of Cakewalk's online help document, which doesn't mention how instrument track cloning is different. 

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    jb101
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    Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked? 2013/07/07 15:03:41 (permalink)
    Beepster - "So have we figured out how to unlink the parameters though? I mean it doesn't really make any sense to have cloned SITs follow every change. All that would do is just make things louder and even if you did it just to have the same synth setup for a different performance within the project not being able to mix that new performance independently... well, that's just weird.

    IDK... maybe I'm missing something. I usually am."

    If you clone a S.I.T. It only creates a new MIDI track linked to ONE soft synth. There are no linked controls, as there is only one soft synth, that both the original track and the cloned track use.

    You cannot unlink the two "Audio tracks", as there is only one. Two MIDI tracks, if you will, both routed to ONE synth.

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