Razorwit
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/08 16:12:23
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stevec
I think the real moral of the story here is that we should think twice about cloning.
I'll get my coat on the way out.... 
This made me literally laugh out loud. Well played, sir. Well played. Dean
Intel Core i7; 32GB RAM; Win10 Pro x64;RME HDSPe MADI FX; Orion 32 and Lynx Aurora 16; Mics and other stuff...
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jb101
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Beepster
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/08 16:24:51
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In response to this thread, I took TWENTY SECONDS to look it up in the manual, where it stated its intended behaviour.
Well I must have been having an off day yesterday because I was scouring the manual for Simple Instrument Tracks, Instrument Tracks, Clone, Clone tracks etc and even did some google searches with those terms and couldn't find anything relating to this. Granted I should have just referenced the page number you posted but for some reason I was on my own mission and didn't. As I said I do remember that entry and if I'm not mistaken it is part of the getting started tuts (again I still haven't looked because I already understand the "issue" now). Still it did not come up in all my scouring of indexes and the like so probably not quite as accessible for most.
Just saying it isn't really that surprising that this could elude some of us and really it seemed like an entirely different problem to begin with. I was approaching it from the angle that somehow the Linked Clips option had been set or a Control Group or whatever else was gumming up the works and was mistaken.
Seems we've all learned something here. Ain't nothin' wrong with that.
Cheers.
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jb101
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/08 16:47:20
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Beepster
In response to this thread, I took TWENTY SECONDS to look it up in the manual, where it stated its intended behaviour.
Well I must have been having an off day yesterday because I was scouring the manual for Simple Instrument Tracks, Instrument Tracks, Clone, Clone tracks etc and even did some google searches with those terms and couldn't find anything relating to this. Granted I should have just referenced the page number you posted but for some reason I was on my own mission and didn't. As I said I do remember that entry and if I'm not mistaken it is part of the getting started tuts (again I still haven't looked because I already understand the "issue" now). Still it did not come up in all my scouring of indexes and the like so probably not quite as accessible for most.
Just saying it isn't really that surprising that this could elude some of us and really it seemed like an entirely different problem to begin with. I was approaching it from the angle that somehow the Linked Clips option had been set or a Control Group or whatever else was gumming up the works and was mistaken.
Seems we've all learned something here. Ain't nothin' wrong with that.
Cheers.
I just skimmed through the table of contents at the beginning until I saw "Copy Tracks". I often find the Contents can often give one a broader search than the Index. It's in the chapter called "Arranging and editing", just after the tutorials.
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stevec
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/08 16:53:42
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Razorwit
stevec
I think the real moral of the story here is that we should think twice about cloning.
I'll get my coat on the way out....
This made me literally laugh out loud.
Well played, sir. Well played.
Dean
Glad I could help.  BTW, jb101... Dolly says hi. Dolly says hi.
SteveC https://soundcloud.com/steve-cocchi http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=39163 SONAR Platinum x64, Intel Q9300 (2.5Ghz), Asus P5N-D, Win7 x64 SP1, 8GB RAM, 1TB internal + ESATA + USB Backup HDDs, ATI Radeon HD5450 1GB RAM + dual ViewSonic VA2431wm Monitors; Focusrite 18i6 (ASIO); Komplete 9, Melodyne Studio 4, Ozone 7 Advanced, Rapture Pro, GPO5, Valhalla Plate, MJUC comp, MDynamic EQ, lots of other freebie VST plugins, synths and Kontakt libraries
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sharke
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/08 16:59:41
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I guess the lesson I've learned is "consult the manual instead of the online documentation, because that's likely to be incomplete (except when the manual is incomplete, in which case consult the online help)."
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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jb101
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/07/09 03:36:11
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I know what you're saying, Sharke, it's frustrating.
I frequently find myself consulting the Reference Guide and Scott's book. I have the PDF on my computer, my kindle and now my iPad (I downloaded it to my iPad yesterday to look this thread's issue up). In quiet moments (infrequent) I flick through it.
There are mistakes in it, but not as many as I have seen reported by some.
Of course, one of the best resources I've found is this forum. I learn stuff on here daily.
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Surealtime
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned instrument tracks linked?
2013/07/12 02:41:16
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So why would you want a fully linked clone anyway? And has anyone figured out a fast way to make an independent copy of an SIT?
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MondoArt
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned instrument tracks linked?
2013/08/08 15:13:50
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I've had this experience as well, and wasn't sure why the controls were linked. The workaround I have used it to insert another instance of the soft synth as a SIT, then shift-ctrl drag the midi clip to the new track to create a copy. This way the 2 instances are independent. You can also ctrl-drag anything in the effect bin as well to copy them.
Neel Songwriter/Producer neelmodi.com Sonar Platinum | Intel i5 | Windows 10 Home | Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 | Akai Advance 61 | NI Komplete 10
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TimV
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned instrument tracks linked?
2013/08/08 15:44:28
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Are the original and clone sharing the same MIDI channel? If so, maybe having different MIDI channels would unlink them.
HP Pavilion Desktop Intel Core 2 Quad Processor 8GB RAM Windows 10 64-bit Cakewalk by Bandlab Sonar Platinum Sonar 8.5 Studio Edition Sonar X1 Studio Edition Sonar X2 Producer Sonar X3e Producer
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paulo
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/08/08 16:44:00
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Clone [klohn]
noun - a person or thing that duplicates and imitates another in appearance, function, performance, or style
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geetsifly
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned tracks linked?
2013/08/08 16:59:14
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Hey Guys,
I think the issue is that the clone does not go deep enough. I believe the controls are linked because both SITs are pointed to the same insrtument plugin instance after the cloning. This is not desireable behaviour for a clone. You would expect 2 instrument plugin instances running in the synth rack when you are done. The instrument defnitely should get cloned as well. I even tried making SITs where the instrument plugin was in the effect bin of the audio track before merging them and after the clone there was a new version of the plugin but midi on the clone was pointed to the original instance.
SITs are workable but have their quirks. FYI I just use them for sketching out new ideas... once I get serious in a project I inevitably split them.
George
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sharke
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned instrument tracks linked?
2013/08/08 16:59:20
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TimV
Are the original and clone sharing the same MIDI channel? If so, maybe having different MIDI channels would unlink them.
The clone is much deeper than that. All the mix controls are linked too.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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geetsifly
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned instrument tracks linked?
2013/08/08 17:06:52
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Yeah I found after the clone if you create a new instrument instance break up the new SIT into audio and midi and point to new plugin instance it seems to behaive after that.
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Danny Danzi
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned instrument tracks linked?
2013/08/08 18:32:11
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I gotta admit, I'm totally cornfused reading this. LOL! In my experience, if I clone one of these, everything should be linked because it is is linking to the same softsynth. If I change the SS in one of them, it breaks the link on my end and that's how I'd expect it to behave...unless I'm totally missing something else? Help! lol :)
I don't like SIT's though they are cool for quickie ideas. I remember using one and I kept having to reload a sample bank every time I loaded up a project for the first time. It was driving me absolutely nuts and still happens to this day at times. The samples sound distorted, buzzy, clipped, like a razor blade is cutting them to shreds. It seems to be an NI thing. (which is where most of my issues come from) Ed (Bapu) read a post of mine where I was complaining about this. Everyone else was sort of stumped as to how/why this was happening to me. As soon as Ed saw it he said "get rid of the instrument track, Danny. They have done weird things to my projects in the past."
As soon as I did and switched back to the old way (one midi, one audio) all my problems were gone. So I don't use them anymore.
-Danny
My Site Fractal Audio Endorsed Artist & Beta Tester
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sharke
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned instrument tracks linked?
2013/08/08 19:44:33
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Hi Danny,
I think the confusion was that I expected everything about a SIT to be cloned, just like everything about an audio track is cloned (including the plugins). For an instrument track, this would mean cloning the synth as well.
I mean let's say you have a normal split MIDI/audio pair connected to a synth. If you clone the audio track, you're going to have two audio tracks connected to the same synth. Now either you want this (let's say you're going to pan them left and right and EQ them differently or delay one side for instance), or you're looking to create a whole new clone of that synth with its associated audio and MIDI tracks. If the latter, then surely the most convenient method would be to package them as a SIT and then clone it, and then split both of the resultant SIT's into their constituent parts.
But that's not how cloning SIT's works in Sonar apparently. Perhaps the bottom line is, there should be a convenient method of cloning the synth itself.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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jb101
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned instrument tracks linked?
2013/08/08 20:47:07
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Danny Danzi
I gotta admit, I'm totally cornfused reading this. LOL! In my experience, if I clone one of these, everything should be linked because it is is linking to the same softsynth. If I change the SS in one of them, it breaks the link on my end and that's how I'd expect it to behave...unless I'm totally missing something else? Help! lol :)
I don't like SIT's though they are cool for quickie ideas. I remember using one and I kept having to reload a sample bank every time I loaded up a project for the first time. It was driving me absolutely nuts and still happens to this day at times. The samples sound distorted, buzzy, clipped, like a razor blade is cutting them to shreds. It seems to be an NI thing. (which is where most of my issues come from) Ed (Bapu) read a post of mine where I was complaining about this. Everyone else was sort of stumped as to how/why this was happening to me. As soon as Ed saw it he said "get rid of the instrument track, Danny. They have done weird things to my projects in the past."
As soon as I did and switched back to the old way (one midi, one audio) all my problems were gone. So I don't use them anymore.
-Danny
Like you, Danny, I do find SITs useful for "Quickie ideas", but I split them as soon as that idea turns into a song/ track. I used to use them all the time, but when I started having issues with them, went back to the "old way" of separate MIDI and audio tracks. It was John's response that summed it up for me.. SITs are just that: simple. They are great for jotting down an idea, but should be split when you decide that the idea is a "keep-er". I have now returned to using SITs when I am writing etc., but split them as soon as I realise that I will keep the idea.
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stevec
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned instrument tracks linked?
2013/08/09 01:16:13
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Funny how experiences can differ... I use SITs more often than the traditional split design, right up to project completion. For my uses they simply work, with the side benefit of taking up less screen real estate. I rarely ever need to split an existing SIT, and if I do, it's usually just to access multiple outs. Definitely a case of YMMV.
SteveC https://soundcloud.com/steve-cocchi http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=39163 SONAR Platinum x64, Intel Q9300 (2.5Ghz), Asus P5N-D, Win7 x64 SP1, 8GB RAM, 1TB internal + ESATA + USB Backup HDDs, ATI Radeon HD5450 1GB RAM + dual ViewSonic VA2431wm Monitors; Focusrite 18i6 (ASIO); Komplete 9, Melodyne Studio 4, Ozone 7 Advanced, Rapture Pro, GPO5, Valhalla Plate, MJUC comp, MDynamic EQ, lots of other freebie VST plugins, synths and Kontakt libraries
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jb101
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned instrument tracks linked?
2013/08/09 09:24:42
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@stevec - I used to use SITs like you all the time. The only issue I had with them was that the input gain knob doesn't seem to work. Most of my soft synths seem to output too hot, so being able to reduce the input gain is pretty important to me.
As you said, though, YMMV.
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sharke
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned instrument tracks linked?
2013/08/09 09:44:31
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Is there any DAW that doesn't have SIT's these days? Pro Tools has them, Reaper has them...can't speak for Cubase but I'm presuming they have them too. There's no reason why they should be problematic or work in unexpected ways, other than bad design and/or bugs.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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scook
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned instrument tracks linked?
2013/08/09 09:48:50
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jb101
The only issue I had with them was that the input gain knob doesn't seem to work.
For a SIT, the "Gain" knob is actual the velocity offset same as a MIDI track.
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MondoArt
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned instrument tracks linked?
2013/08/09 09:50:36
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Yes, most soft synths are pretty hot - I usually turn the fader down to -6 or -12 to start with.
Neel Songwriter/Producer neelmodi.com Sonar Platinum | Intel i5 | Windows 10 Home | Focusrite Scarlett 2i4 | Akai Advance 61 | NI Komplete 10
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jb101
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned instrument tracks linked?
2013/08/09 09:54:25
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MondoArt
Yes, most soft synths are pretty hot - I usually turn the fader down to -6 or -12 to start with.
Problem with turning the fader down is that the signal is still hot going through the ProChannel. Using the input gain knob stops this. Also, the faders are "more sensitive" (sorry, can't think of a better way of describing it) nearer to zero.
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scook
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned instrument tracks linked?
2013/08/09 10:05:14
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jb101
MondoArt
Yes, most soft synths are pretty hot - I usually turn the fader down to -6 or -12 to start with.
Problem with turning the fader down is that the signal is still hot going through the ProChannel. Using the input gain knob stops this.
Also, the faders are "more sensitive" (sorry, can't think of a better way of describing it) nearer to zero.
If you want to adjust the audio input gain, you need to temporarily split the SIT to access to the audio track input gain adjustment.
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sharke
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned instrument tracks linked?
2013/08/09 10:39:48
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Most soft synths have a master output control though right? That's always the first thing I turn down. Might as well cool the signal right at the source.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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stevec
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned instrument tracks linked?
2013/08/09 14:03:35
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sharke
Most soft synths have a master output control though right? That's always the first thing I turn down. Might as well cool the signal right at the source.
Yup, that's what I do as well.
SteveC https://soundcloud.com/steve-cocchi http://www.soundclick.com/bands/pagemusic.cfm?bandID=39163 SONAR Platinum x64, Intel Q9300 (2.5Ghz), Asus P5N-D, Win7 x64 SP1, 8GB RAM, 1TB internal + ESATA + USB Backup HDDs, ATI Radeon HD5450 1GB RAM + dual ViewSonic VA2431wm Monitors; Focusrite 18i6 (ASIO); Komplete 9, Melodyne Studio 4, Ozone 7 Advanced, Rapture Pro, GPO5, Valhalla Plate, MJUC comp, MDynamic EQ, lots of other freebie VST plugins, synths and Kontakt libraries
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jb101
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned instrument tracks linked?
2013/08/09 18:26:58
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stevec
sharke
Most soft synths have a master output control though right? That's always the first thing I turn down. Might as well cool the signal right at the source.
Yup, that's what I do as well.
Not all, sadly. EZdrummer doesn't, I'm pretty sure. Does Dim Pro? Not at my DAW at moment.
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Paul P
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned instrument tracks linked?
2013/08/09 23:36:38
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jb101
Not all, sadly. EZdrummer doesn't, I'm pretty sure. Does Dim Pro? Not at my DAW at moment.
DimPro doesn't. Rapture, Z3ta+2 and SD3 do.
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sharke
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned instrument tracks linked?
2013/08/09 23:39:00
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Not including a master output control on a VSTi is just pure insanity!
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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brundlefly
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Re: Why are mix controls on cloned instrument tracks linked?
2013/08/10 02:22:58
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Paul P
jb101
Not all [softs synths have a master output control], sadly. EZdrummer doesn't, I'm pretty sure. Does Dim Pro? Not at my DAW at moment.
DimPro doesn't. Rapture, Z3ta+2 and SD3 do.
Dim Pro doesn't have a widget for Master Volume, but it responds to MIDI Volume (CC7), which is what the fader in the MIDI tab of a SIT's Inspector sends - same result. I'd imagine EZDrummer does, too. My main complaint about SITs is that the Input and Gain on the Audio tab are MIDI Input and Velocity Offset just as they are on the MIDI tab. They should be the corresponding audio controls. I filed this as a Bug some time back, but the Bakers replied that it's working as designed.  Regarding the cloning of a SIT, it's really never occurred to me to try it. In my view, it totally defeats the purpose of a SIT, and shouldn't even be allowed. There's no way to implement it that doesn't introduce some logical conundrum or yield results that will seem unintuitive to some users.
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