The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 06:17:56
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Brandon Ryan [Cakewalk
]
n0rd
SCorey
It's an effect whose UI doesn't behave like any other effects in Sonar.
+1.
Is PX64 GUI built-in? What about LP64? Perfect Space?
And what if they did implement all of Cake's plugins into X1 GUI? Would everyone be pleased then?
By virtue of that logic then the Sonitus EQ in Producer from SONAR 3-8.5 should have bothered folks too. It's an effect that doesn't behave like a plugin either.
You could extend the argument and say that a panner is the same thing. Why not use a panning plugin and an EQ plugin on every channel? I mean you don't really need pan (or EQ) on every track. Why not just add it when you need it? 
This is not an example of making an argument to move a conversation forward. It merely serves to show us that you are a clever person who enjoys a bit of humor. Cakewalk has a lousy panning feature but it works. If it didn't work, Cakewalk would probably... well let's not go there. The Channel Tool is an almost comedic solution to Cakewalks panning deficiencies. I am very very glad it is not embedded in SONAR. Cakewalk may be better served if someone within the organization attempts to appreciate the perspective of all of it's customers. Some of it's customers would simply like to remove Cakewalk's latest half baked efx. Some of us don't want buggy bloaty software embedded in our DAW. Can you please ask someone at Cakewalk to make ProChannel removable? It's a very simple issue from the point of view of a paying customer who doesn't want to be reminded he is paying for defective features. best regards, mike
post edited by mike_mccue - 2011/07/07 06:19:29
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mattox82
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 06:34:34
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Pretty amazing thread.
In nearly all reviews / 'pro' videos I've seen around the net, there is a chorus of positivity for ProChannel. If you don't like it, dont use it. There are a few people here pissed of with PC, but I wonder what percentage of the overall userbase that actually is?
They will eventually fix the bugs causing it to sometimes turn on/off. Maybe it will all be fixed in X1C!
I'm all for ProChannel being on each track / right in my face. The thing sounds killer, all my new dubstep tracks are coming out sounding clearer and phatter since I started using PC for all my EQ needs!
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John T
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 06:41:03
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This is really just trolling now.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 06:50:47
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One of the points I have been trying to make is that most of the people who have stood up and explained that they finally realized that ProChannel was switching on and off WERE happy ProChannel users saying positive things about what they heard.
It took many of the satisfied and happy users a few months or even more to find the time to observe and figure out there was a problem.
The logic behind my argument is that until each of us spends some time actually looking to see if there is a problem... and I mean quite a bit of time.. then reports that ProChannel is working fine on *your name here* system may be premature.
That's the nature of diagnostics.
Furthermore we can expect, statistically, that many people that have said they love ProChannel will not admit they have been listening and giving rave reviews to a EFX that may not even be turned on.
You are not going to see a lot of people stand up and say something to the effect that they have been fooled into thinking they liked what they did (or didn't) hear.
It's illogical to expect Cakewalk to be able to fix a problem that they haven't even recognized.
It's discouraging to see people report satisfaction with an EFX when, as I have demonstrated, none of us can not know for sure if it's even on and working.
There is simply no way to know for sure
One thing is for sure... the problem only shows up when you are looking at it.
It's very likely that it is being ignored by everyone else.
Once Cakewalk does find and fix the bug(s) it will be easier to understand who might have been susceptible and who was immune.
In the meantime... if you are not staring at you inspector and shuffling through your ProChannels... then you just don't know.
YUCK!
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John T
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 07:07:58
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mike_mccue
One of the points I have been trying to make is that most of the people who have stood up and explained that they finally realized that ProChannel was switching on and off WERE happy ProChannel users saying positive things about what they heard.
It took many of the satisfied and happy users a few months or even more to find the time to observe and figure out there was a problem.
You've claimed this a lot, yes. But it doesn't appear to be true. I know that in McCue Land when the King repeats something enough times it becomes fact, but out here in the real world, nobody cares about that. For my part, I first had this problem - of the two times it's happened - in something like February. I've been happy with the ProChannel not because I didn't notice this problem, because I did, immediately, but because it manifests very rarely. This entire argument, like most of your arguments, rests heavily on your on-going assumption that you are orders of magnitude smarter and more perceptive than everyone else here, and are capable of seeing things that they simply can't. This is both incorrect and rude. So, you know, trolling.
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John T
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 07:12:55
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mike_mccue
It's discouraging to see people report satisfaction with an EFX when, as I have demonstrated, none of us can not know for sure if it's even on and working.
There is simply no way to know for sure
One thing is for sure... the problem only shows up when you are looking at it.
So you're saying that your A1 Pro skills don't extend to being able to tell with your ears whether an EQ, compressor, or saturation stage is doing anything?
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Jonbouy
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 07:56:15
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There is a clear distinction between a making a feature available as an option and having it imposed. 12 pages of cant related to that indicates to me a fair amount of inflexibility on the part of the developers who could in fact quite easily implement a means of switching the whole PC thing off and please everyone. One then has to ask why it's appearance is enforced (whether it is used or not) rather than selectable by the end user. Why is there anyone here having any difficulty with understanding this seemingly simple concept? Surely perservering with the perverse tack of it's there because it is, is more likely suffering from a blind desire to troll rather than somebody that would like to see it's status as 'optional'. This thing bears no relation to having an eq built into a console strip or a pan control, this thing takes up some serious screen estate. Period.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2011/07/07 08:04:04
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John T
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 08:03:19
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Jonbouy
12 pages of cant related to that indicates to me a fair amount of inflexibility on the part of the developers who could in fact quite easily implement a means of switching the whole PC thing off and please everyone.
Well, no. There is a means of switching it off. There's an as-yet unidentified bug somewhere that is causing it to switch on at unexpected times. It seems, from people's reports that this is reasonably rare. Obviously, it's a bug that needs fixing. However, a means of switching it off is part of the design. This is a quality control issue for sure, but not a design issue.
One then has to ask why it's appearance is enforced (whether it is used or not) rather than selectable by the end user. . . this thing takes up some serious screen estate.
It is off and hidden by default, and displayed or not displayed by user choice.
Why is there anyone here having any difficulty with understanding this seemingly simple concept?
Everyone understands it. But as just described, it is simply incorrect. Every one of the objections in your post is counter-factual.
post edited by John T - 2011/07/07 08:14:39
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lfm
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 08:07:40
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Jonbouy
There is a clear distinction between a making a feature available as an option and having it imposed.
12 pages of cant related to that indicates to me a fair amount of inflexibility on the part of the developers who could in fact quite easily implement a means of switching the whole PC thing off and please everyone.
One then has to ask why it's appearance is enforced (whether it is used or not) rather than selectable by the end user.
Why is there anyone here having any difficulty with understanding this seemingly simple concept? Surely perservering with the perverse tack of it's there because it is, is more likely suffering from a blind desire to troll rather than somebody that would like to see it's status as 'optional'.
I can relate to that. When Project 5 had Dimension and it was very praised it came as a separate product. That is what I am hoping will happend to ProChannel - just a regular VST you load when you need it - in any host of your choice. You are keeping your options open that way. I will get X2 Studio when it arrives for that sake. The daw is just the recording tool. I prefer to have all processing tools aside.
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ProjectM
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 08:07:58
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Jonbouy
There is a clear distinction between a making a feature available as an option and having it imposed.
12 pages of cant related to that indicates to me a fair amount of inflexibility on the part of the developers who could in fact quite easily implement a means of switching the whole PC thing off and please everyone.
One then has to ask why it's appearance is enforced (whether it is used or not) rather than selectable by the end user.
Why is there anyone here having any difficulty with understanding this seemingly simple concept? Surely perservering with the perverse tack of it's there because it is, is more likely suffering from a blind desire to troll rather than somebody that would like to see it's status as 'optional'.
This thing bears no relation to having an eq built into a console strip or a pan control, this thing takes up some serious screen estate. Period.
Is it normal to be able to disable/hide/remove built in channel tools in other DAWs? I don't get this "imposed" idea at all. The first few months I didn't use the PC very much - because I forgot to do so.
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Jonbouy
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 08:13:34
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Well, here we go. It is imposed. As it's unlike the VX64 say which isn't there until you select to use it. So why not treat pro-channel the same as the VX64? Sure keep it as a default option as it stands but why not the option of a complete non-appearance if preferred? Why is that difficult to the point of needing 12 pages to discuss it?
post edited by Jonbouy - 2011/07/07 08:15:02
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John T
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 08:16:34
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Jonbouy
Well, here we go.
It is imposed unlike the VX64 say which isn't there until you select to use it.
We've just dealt with this. It's off and hidden by default. If you can interpret "off and hidden" as "imposed" then you're just plain barking mad.
So why not treat pro-channel the same as the VX64?
Sure keep it as a default option as it stands but why not the option of a complete non-appearance if preferred?
It's off and hidden by default. So yes, there is a complete non-appearance of it if preferred. In fact, there is a complete non-appearance of it even before you express a preference.
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Jonbouy
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 08:18:59
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Is it normal to be able to disable/hide/remove built in channel tools in other DAWs? I am unaware of another product aside from Propellerheads Record that incorporates such a feature. It's excusable there because it is a totally proprietary system which excludes the use of VST's. I fear this is the way Cakewalk would like to go long-term too TBH, as that is what 'fixed' ultimately means.
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John T
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 08:22:32
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How you guys get through a day, I'll never work out. Everything seems pregnant with terrifying portent for some of you.
Just to help you relax - because I fear you're going to make yourselves ill - here's how it's going to pan out. Cakewalk are going to carry on making a DAW, and if they suddenly start really sucking at it, you can stop buying it.
Honestly, no need for fear. IT'S GOING TO BE OKAY.
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Jonbouy
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 08:22:35
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It's off and hidden by default. So yes, there is a complete non-appearance of it if preferred. In fact, there is a complete non-appearance of it even before you express a preference. No it's there and using up some resources however minimal from the get go, the VX64 is NOT! It apppears on a tab in the default template!
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John T
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 08:23:58
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Jonbouy
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 08:25:16
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John T
How you guys get through a day, I'll never work out. Everything seems pregnant with terrifying portent for some of you.
Just to help you relax - because I fear you're going to make yourselves ill - here's how it's going to pan out. Cakewalk are going to carry on making a DAW, and if they suddenly start really sucking at it, you can stop buying it.
Honestly, no need for fear. IT'S GOING TO BE OKAY.
Don't patronise me. My comments are perfectly valid and sane and I shan't be losing sleep over any of this. So why your persistent need to dismiss a POV that is indifferent to yours?
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John T
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 08:26:41
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Jonbouy
It's off and hidden by default. So yes, there is a complete non-appearance of it if preferred. In fact, there is a complete non-appearance of it even before you express a preference.
No it's there and using up some resources however minimal from the get go, the VX64 is NOT!
Cakewalk have said it takes up no resources when off. I think Brandon says so in this very thread. I'm happy to assume they're not lying.
It apppears on a tab in the default template!
Yes. There are buttons you can press to make it visible and active. You seem to be saying you'll only be happy with a custom version for you in which the option to switch it on isn't even present. I would imagine that's not a high priority for development. Possibly because it's completely and utterly pointless.
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John T
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 08:28:04
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Jonbouy
John T
How you guys get through a day, I'll never work out. Everything seems pregnant with terrifying portent for some of you.
Just to help you relax - because I fear you're going to make yourselves ill - here's how it's going to pan out. Cakewalk are going to carry on making a DAW, and if they suddenly start really sucking at it, you can stop buying it.
Honestly, no need for fear. IT'S GOING TO BE OKAY.
Don't patronise me. My comments are perfectly valid
We've been through them, one by one, in detail. They aren't valid. Sorry about that like, but they're not.
So why your persistent need to dismiss a POV that is indifferent to yours?
I assume you mean "different". I don't mind different points of view at all. I'm simply pointing out that yours is factually incorrect.
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Jonbouy
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 08:31:52
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How can something that's not there turn itself 'on' by mistake.
Let me put this more simply, I'd prefer the option of being able to elect to load it as a VST rather than have it integrated (which it is).
btw JohnT I did mean indifferent.
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Beagle
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 08:33:06
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mike_mccue
One of the points I have been trying to make is that most of the people who have stood up and explained that they finally realized that ProChannel was switching on and off WERE happy ProChannel users saying positive things about what they heard.
It took many of the satisfied and happy users a few months or even more to find the time to observe and figure out there was a problem.
I'm sorry Mike, but that's simply not true for everyone. I don't know the difference in your system and mine or Bub's system and mine, but I have been using PC extensively in the last few projects I've been working on and liking it more and more as I use it. since this thread started I've been scrutenizing PC to make sure each instance on each track is behaving the way it should. i.e. the ones that I've been using are staying ON and the settings have not arbitrarily changed, and also checking the ones I haven't used to make sure they stay OFF. I also have been verifying that the ones I am using are actually doing their job (and not doing what is happening to Bub where it's not actually affecting the track signal at all until he touches the tube saturation). I've even been using PC both with and without the tube saturation and have seen no problems at all. so to say that "(most of the people)...finally realized that ProChannel was switching on and off..." is quite an exaggeration, IMO. It does apparently apply to some people - but let's not say that "most people" are not smart enough to realize if they are having problems with it or not, which is what it seems to me that you're elluding to. Also, I am not saying that you and Bub and others are not having the problems that you're describing. I'm simply saying that there are some of us who do NOT have these problems and you seem to be lumping all of us in the same boat without statistics to back up your claim.
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ProjectM
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 08:33:35
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Jonbouy
Well, here we go.
It is imposed. As it's unlike the VX64 say which isn't there until you select to use it.
So why not treat pro-channel the same as the VX64?
Got it. Some people are just really hung up in it being there. Well diffrent people and so forth I guess 
Sure keep it as a default option as it stands but why not the option of a complete non-appearance if preferred?
Well, I won't argue with you there. That may be a good idea - although IMO a bit of an overkill as it's not visible unless you want it to. But I'm sure it would please many. Time for a Feature request perhaps?
Why is that difficult to the point of needing 12 pages to discuss it?
He he, good question. Some people just doesn't give up until every one agrees with them and others want certain answers. When it comes down to it, Cakewalk makes the final desicion. If they choose not to do anything about PC's implementation then I am sure that it is based on their analysis of general user experience
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John T
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 08:38:06
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Jonbouy
How can something that's not there turn itself 'on' by mistake.
It's a bug. Nobody disagrees that it's a bug.
Let me put this more simply, I'd prefer the option of being able to elect to load it as a VST rather than have it integrated (which it is).
Well, I think a little knowledge is a dangerous thing here. VSTs when not loaded don't use any CPU. The ProChannel when not activated doesn't use any CPU. For you, there seems to be a distinction that matters here. You're going to have to accept that not many people are going to care about this non-distinction, I think.
btw JohnT I did mean indifferent.
Right. Well, the answer's the same. It's not the "indifference" I'm arguing against, it's the "wrongness".
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ProjectM
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 08:40:01
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Jonbouy
Is it normal to be able to disable/hide/remove built in channel tools in other DAWs?
I am unaware of another product aside from Propellerheads Record that incorporates such a feature.
It's excusable there because it is a totally proprietary system which excludes the use of VST's.
I fear this is the way Cakewalk would like to go long-term too TBH, as that is what 'fixed' ultimately means.
Record is one, but I am also thinking about the built in EQ in for example Cubase and Nuendo and as far as I know, Studio One? That Record can't use VSTs is a good argument. But how about the others?
(Sonar Platinum - Win10 x64) - iMac and 13" MacBook - Logic Pro X ++ - UA Apollo Twin DUO - NI Maschine MKII - NI Komplete Kontrol S61 - Novation Nocturne - KRK Rokit 6 SoundcloudNegative Vibe Records
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Jonbouy
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 08:40:32
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There is no wrong in expressing a preference.
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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John T
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 08:44:38
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Jonbouy
There is no wrong in expressing a preference.
Indeed no. However, the complaints you make don't hold up. You don't like it using resources when off - it doesn't. You don't like it being forced on the user - it isn't You don't like it being shown by default - it isn't I could go on. I'm sure you get the point.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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Jonbouy
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 08:46:17
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John T
Jonbouy
There is no wrong in expressing a preference.
Indeed no. However, the complaints you make don't hold up.
You don't like it using resources when off - it doesn't.
You don't like it being forced on the user - it isn't
You don't like it being shown by default - it isn't
I could go on. I'm sure you get the point.
John T I got the point WRT yourself long ago...
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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John T
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 08:46:36
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This forum is too lightly moderated. A 12 page thread of people angrily demanding that an optional feature be removed belongs in the bin.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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John T
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 08:48:19
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Jonbouy
John T
Jonbouy
There is no wrong in expressing a preference.
Indeed no. However, the complaints you make don't hold up.
You don't like it using resources when off - it doesn't.
You don't like it being forced on the user - it isn't
You don't like it being shown by default - it isn't
I could go on. I'm sure you get the point.
John T I got the point WRT yourself long ago...
Yes, very good. It wouldn't hurt to actually say "You know what, I was wrong about this", but you carry on. If you want to get annoyed about non-existent problems, you go right ahead.
http://johntatlockaudio.com/Self-build PC // 16GB RAM // i7 3770k @ 3.5 Ghz // Nofan 0dB cooler // ASUS P8-Z77 V Pro motherboard // Intel x-25m SSD System Drive // Seagate RAID Array Audio Drive // Windows 10 64 bit // Sonar Platinum (64 bit) // Sonar VS-700 // M-Audio Keystation Pro 88 // KRK RP-6 Monitors // and a bunch of other stuff
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Jonbouy
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Re:Why was it so important to shove Pro Channel into it's own hidden bus?
2011/07/07 08:53:15
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 WOW!
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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