kevinwal
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/11 21:05:47
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bapu
IIRC Windows was originally based on a Xerox OS that Gates asked if he could use and Xerox said "sure".
I'm sorry to point out that I don't think you are remembering this correctly. It was Steve Jobs who visited the Xerox Palo Alto Research Center to see the work they had been doing with graphical user interfaces. It was there that he first saw a new device called a "mouse", which was used to drive an arrow on the screen to capture user intentions. Xerox did not just give away their IP during that visit, rather, they received options to purchase $1,000,000 in pre-IPO Apple stock.
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kevinwal
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/11 21:26:26
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☄ Helpfulby Jarsve 2015/06/12 06:55:16
bapu
Jarsve,
We will have to agree to disagree. I don't need to read about computing history. I'm 62 years old and I have been in IT since 1978. That is looooooong before Microsoft developed Windows but just about the time they got (think: stolen) DOS up and running on IBM computers.
I do hate to be a nit-pick, but again, this is incorrect. Microsoft licensed 86-DOS from a company called Seattle Computer Products and worked with SCP to produce PC-DOS 1.0 for the IBM PC. Ultimately Tim Paterson of SCP became a Microsoft employee. Microsoft also helped IBM develop the first PC BIOS. bapu
Guess what? back then (1978) there were other operating systems the least of which was Unix. If you go back even further in history you will find that before regions/countries were able to communicate and near light speed very similar "inventions" took place over thousands of years. How did that happen? People thought in vaccuums. It's not far fetched to say that if Bill Gates had died in car crash at age 14 someone else would have taken his place and the name may not even be Microsoft, it might be called SpringBoardComputing for all we know.
Based on that knowledge and understanding of history I say Microsoft is *not* the only outcome that enables us to be able to do what we do today. We would be here no matter what. Just some names would be different.
JMO.
BTW, I don't hate Microsoft.
I totally agree with this. I remember working on some accounting systems that ran (quite well) on CP/M on 8086 computers. Microsoft's technical contributions, while very significant, were evolutionary in nature rather than revolutionary. It should be recognized though that most PC's of the day booted right into MS-BASIC, arguably Microsoft's first operating system. :) Microsoft's most significant innovation by far was to foster the creation of an ecosystem of hardware developers on the one hand and software developers on the other hand to create an extremely flexible platform that allowed everyone involved to profit. This was decidedly new in computing since almost without exception most vendors of the day maintained a very tight grip on highly proprietary designs in hardware and software, seeking to control the entire computing stack. It's likely that only a software company with no skin in the hardware game could pull this strategy off, and Gates was determined that Microsoft would be the one to do it. Gates recognized right away that a hardware architecture with the muscle of IBM behind it, coupled with IBM's relative indifference to the PC compared to its bread and butter mainframe business could become a defacto hardware standard. Of particular significance was the availability of a PCI bus which allowed third party hardware innovation. He proposed to create a software architecture that would serve the same purpose for application developers, and further recognized that the network effect created by massive availability would drive Microsoft's success even in the face of the shiny pretty geegaws being produced by Apple. I don't hate Microsoft either. :)
post edited by kevinwal - 2015/06/11 21:32:35
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Doktor Avalanche 
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/11 21:34:09
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Jarsve
I have also a petition in the Insider Hub that they overhaul the WDM code. Feel free to like it there. From the MS threads I've read, you would think that's all they are doing...
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charlyg
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/11 21:38:43
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Doktor Avalanche
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/11 21:41:44
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charlyg
Dirty DOS!!!
Frig, if they can make Sonar and everything run in DOS and get rid of the GUI I'll buy it>denial.txt|more
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kevinwal
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/11 22:54:27
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☄ Helpfulby Jarsve 2015/06/12 06:56:10
Doktor Avalanche
Jarsve
I have also a petition in the Insider Hub that they overhaul the WDM code. Feel free to like it there.
From the MS threads I've read, you would think that's all they are doing...
They are doing a lot of work in the WDM and MIDI stacks so much of the short term latency benefits will be realized if you go with WDM. I think that's just the beginning. Pete Brown of the audio team at MS has posted about MS's new interest in evolving the audio stack and I suspect (and hope) that we'll see more some substantial work in the audio subsystem over the longer haul. We'll see but I'm optimistic.
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bapu
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/12 09:35:40
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kevinwal
bapu
IIRC Windows was originally based on a Xerox OS that Gates asked if he could use and Xerox said "sure".
I'm sorry to point out that I don't think you are remembering this correctly. It was Steve Jobs who visited the Xerox Palo Alto Research Center to see the work they had been doing with graphical user interfaces. It was there that he first saw a new device called a "mouse", which was used to drive an arrow on the screen to capture user intentions. Xerox did not just give away their IP during that visit, rather, they received options to purchase $1,000,000 in pre-IPO Apple stock.
IIRC also means I many not be remembering correctly.  Thanks for the correction.
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bapu
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/12 10:36:50
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kevinwal
bapu
Jarsve,
We will have to agree to disagree. I don't need to read about computing history. I'm 62 years old and I have been in IT since 1978. That is looooooong before Microsoft developed Windows but just about the time they got (think: stolen) DOS up and running on IBM computers.
I do hate to be a nit-pick, but again, this is incorrect. Microsoft licensed 86-DOS from a company called Seattle Computer Products and worked with SCP to produce PC-DOS 1.0 for the IBM PC. Ultimately Tim Paterson of SCP became a Microsoft employee. Microsoft also helped IBM develop the first PC BIOS.
However, in software sometime a deal is a steal, ya?
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kevinwal
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/12 20:58:34
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bapu
kevinwal
bapu
Jarsve,
We will have to agree to disagree. I don't need to read about computing history. I'm 62 years old and I have been in IT since 1978. That is looooooong before Microsoft developed Windows but just about the time they got (think: stolen) DOS up and running on IBM computers.
I do hate to be a nit-pick, but again, this is incorrect. Microsoft licensed 86-DOS from a company called Seattle Computer Products and worked with SCP to produce PC-DOS 1.0 for the IBM PC. Ultimately Tim Paterson of SCP became a Microsoft employee. Microsoft also helped IBM develop the first PC BIOS.
However, in software sometime a deal is a steal, ya?
Sure, in hindsight one might consider the deal MS got on 86-DOS a steal. But at the time? SPC was a dinky company and so was Microsoft. No one had even heard of either of these companies outside of a small circle of enthusiasts. Who knew what would happen? IBM could have yanked the project at any time and gone with C/PM instead. Ah, the good old days.
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charlyg
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/12 21:11:41
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I owned an Osbourne Executive. I upgraded it to 2 mb of ram and a 20 mb HD. It started out with 64k and a floppy! Oh, and I had ALL of the cp/m programs on the HD. But then again Wordstar was maybe 18k IIRC. SuperCalc might have hit 35k... Or my mind has a short.......... This is not a pic of MY Osbourne.... .jpg)
post edited by charlyg - 2015/06/12 21:18:45
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kevinwal
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/13 10:42:42
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bapu
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/13 19:04:54
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The first computer I ever programmed on.  In Fortran using the IMAGE 3000 database. I did custom mods to the ASK ManMan and FinMan software systems.
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fireberd
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/14 06:16:59
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My first home computer was a Commodore VIC 20. Even learned some Basic programming.
In late 60's/early 70's I worked as a Telemetry Processor programmer at NASA (Goddard Space Flight Center). The "Apollo" processor was machine language. Later they got a new system and it used a modified BAL programming language.
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kevinwal
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/14 09:49:18
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This is the first computer I ever wrote code for, the Univac 1218 computer, a Navy data processing system. I was a computer operator on a US Navy ship and whiled away the long hours writing all kinds of fun programs. I went on to repair these things before I got out of the service. This isn't me, by the way. :)  By the way, this computer is an 18-bit computer (using octal readouts) and 4K wire core memory. It was awesome.
post edited by kevinwal - 2015/06/15 20:34:12
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kevinwal
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/14 09:54:00
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fireberd
My first home computer was a Commodore VIC 20. Even learned some Basic programming.
In late 60's/early 70's I worked as a Telemetry Processor programmer at NASA (Goddard Space Flight Center). The "Apollo" processor was machine language. Later they got a new system and it used a modified BAL programming language.
I loved old tech! It did so much with so little. I lived in Huntsville Alabama in the 90's and had lots of neighbors who worked on cool stuff like that. One of my neighbors also worked on telemetry for the shuttle program (I believe) at Marshall Space Flight Center. There were lots of NASA guys in my little neighborhood, amazing talent. I worked for Intergraph there on our proprietary Unix-based CAD systems and later on NT-based solutions.
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kevinwal
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/14 09:55:45
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bapu
The first computer I ever programmed on.
In Fortran using the IMAGE 3000 database. I did custom mods to the ASK ManMan and FinMan software systems.
Sweet! I used to work on a plotter system driven by one of those things, if memory serves, though I'm probably wrong. Didn't those guys use a Unix or Unix variant OS?
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bapu
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/14 10:48:07
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kevinwal
bapu
The first computer I ever programmed on.
In Fortran using the IMAGE 3000 database. I did custom mods to the ASK ManMan and FinMan software systems.
Sweet! I used to work on a plotter system driven by one of those things, if memory serves, though I'm probably wrong. Didn't those guys use a Unix or Unix variant OS?
If they did, they hid it well. But then again, since it was my first it all seemed special and unique.
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bapu
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/14 10:49:21
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BTW, that was 1978 for me on the HP-3000.
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cclarry
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/14 14:27:36
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First PC I ever programmed on... 
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ØSkald
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/14 16:25:09
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I didn't own a PC until 95. My family couldn't afford it and I was broke. I really envy you guys who started of in the 70s and 80s. Some friends of mine had commodore and sharp tho. And I was into computer and audio, music production, early on. I think it was 1990 or something I first thought of it and in 1992 I worked as a doorstep I a studio and learned some drums programming. Don't remember what the DAW was. But the owner was a prick, and I was a fool. Bad combination. And the work just lasted a year. So in 95 when I got hold of a PC, the first I did was installing a DAW. my first was Musicator 2. A Norwegian midi recording/ editing software. I remember that it was sometimes stuttering playback. Lol
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Alex B.
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/14 19:36:02
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My Cakewalk 3.1 doesn't support Windows 3.1.
And MS doesn't aswer me.
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kevinwal
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/15 20:21:37
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Alex B.
My Cakewalk 3.1 doesn't support Windows 3.1.
And MS doesn't aswer me.
It'll probably run fine on Windows 10. I did it! Back on topic! 
post edited by kevinwal - 2015/06/15 20:32:35
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/16 00:31:58
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First home computer was an Amiga 1000, Jan 1985. 256 k memory, two floppy drives, two button mouse, context menus, color, and stereo sound. One of the first time slicing OSs.
Too bad Commodore bought it and drowned it.
Just like Creative bought and killed EMU.
And so on,...
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silverfire
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/17 15:44:28
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Sycraft
No catch, MS wants to get everyone on Windows 10. They had some really bad press with Windows 8 (despite it actually being quite a good OS) and they don't want Windows 7 to turn in to another XP where people refuse to upgrade because they are convinced it is the last good OS ever. So they are trying to convince people to upgrade, and making the upgrade free makes it that much more tempting. They are hoping they can get the large majority of the Windows user base on to Windows 10 in a timely fashion.
We'll see if it works.
This. MS got bad press for nearly every big (non-incremental) OS launch. Vista had terrible press, despite it being pretty solid as time went on. (7 isn't ALL that different) 8 did horribly with the press, 8.1 curbed it a little. Combination of people needing time to adjust to new user interfaces, and Microsoft needing a bit of time to add polish. When you combine that with something you need to shell out a $100 or more for, there are high expectations, and a high tendency to be critical. (For good reason) With a free launch, there's little to lose, and reviewers and users alike will be more likely to go easy on it during the initial ramp-up. They'll get the type of traction they want with less negative press, and ultimately get all the paid sales that they are looking for anyways.
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interpolated
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/17 17:18:49
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I hate to be a nitpick.....generally speaking...
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Larry Jones
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/17 21:48:08
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silverfire
So they are trying to convince people to upgrade, and making the upgrade free makes it that much more tempting. They are hoping they can get the large majority of the Windows user base on to Windows 10 in a timely fashion.
It's an operating system. It's not optional software like a DAW or a word processor. If it's hard to learn or hard to use or buggy, it won't matter if it's free or they ship each one with a bag of cash. People will complain. Remember U2's iPhone "gift"?
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kevinwal
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/17 23:34:27
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Larry Jones
silverfire
So they are trying to convince people to upgrade, and making the upgrade free makes it that much more tempting. They are hoping they can get the large majority of the Windows user base on to Windows 10 in a timely fashion.
It's an operating system. It's not optional software like a DAW or a word processor. If it's hard to learn or hard to use or buggy, it won't matter if it's free or they ship each one with a bag of cash. People will complain. Remember U2's iPhone "gift"?
But it is optional. No one need upgrade. By the way, thanks for that link, Larry Jones! Best quote: "We are now scraping the bottom of the barrel of first world problems." I daresay that with a free Windows 10 in the offing we are poised to scrape ever deeper. In the new reality free is a symptom of corporate evil.
post edited by kevinwal - 2015/06/17 23:41:50
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Larry Jones
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/18 01:38:46
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kevinwal
Larry Jones
silverfire
So they are trying to convince people to upgrade, and making the upgrade free makes it that much more tempting. They are hoping they can get the large majority of the Windows user base on to Windows 10 in a timely fashion.
It's an operating system. It's not optional software like a DAW or a word processor. If it's hard to learn or hard to use or buggy, it won't matter if it's free or they ship each one with a bag of cash. People will complain. Remember U2's iPhone "gift"?
But it is optional. No one need upgrade. By the way, thanks for that link, Larry Jones! Best quote: "We are now scraping the bottom of the barrel of first world problems." I daresay that with a free Windows 10 in the offing we are poised to scrape ever deeper. In the new reality free is a symptom of corporate evil.
What I meant was you can't run your computer without an OS, so in that sense it's not optional. True, existing users need not jump in, but there will be many PC sales and they will all have Windows 10 preinstalled. And this may be a myth, but I think I have read or heard somewhere that you can't revert to your previous OS if you accept Microsoft's free offer. If that's true, it's kind of a pisser in and of itself. I'm sure we'll find good reasons to complain about the free OS.
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kevinwal
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/18 01:53:45
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No doubt. 
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vintagevibe
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Re: Windows 10 will be the last OS
2015/06/18 11:37:32
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silverfire
This. MS got bad press for nearly every big (non-incremental) OS launch. Vista had terrible press, despite it being pretty solid as time went on. (7 isn't ALL that different) 8 did horribly with the press, 8.1 curbed it a little. Combination of people needing time to adjust to new user interfaces, and Microsoft needing a bit of time to add polish. When you combine that with something you need to shell out a $100 or more for, there are high expectations, and a high tendency to be critical. (For good reason) With a free launch, there's little to lose, and reviewers and users alike will be more likely to go easy on it during the initial ramp-up. They'll get the type of traction they want with less negative press, and ultimately get all the paid sales that they are looking for anyways.
It's not just bad press it's unhappy customers. Vista was a nightmare at launch. 8.0 was designed as if everyone had a touch screen. Nobody had a clue as to what to do after it booted. 8.0 was bad design, not just bad press.
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