Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/18 14:23:44
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Bub,
I'm not sure what to offer than to get the system to a state where you know it worked. or try a different system as another environment to test from. If you have an image you can restore from I'd try it. If you have another machine you can install X1c on I'd try that too.
"The sky above the port was the color of television, tuned to a dead channel." WG SONAR Platinum | VS-700 | A-800 PRO | PCAL i7 with SSD running Windows 8 x64 | Samsung 27" LCD @ 1920x1080 | Blue Sky monitors with BMC | All kinds of other stuff
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Bub 
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/18 16:12:02
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Hi Brandon,
Ok, will do. I just wanted to hold off to see if you wanted me to send in any info before I wiped it all off.
It's no problem at all to restore from an image back to a fresh Win 7/X1 install. I originally wanted to do that anyway if you've been following my posts. There's something to be said for a fresh install from time to time. :)
I should be a beta tester ... it seems if there is a problem, I will run in to it. LOL!
Thanks again.
Bub
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Bub
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/20 00:00:41
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Well ... looks like I'm done. After a fresh install X1C still brings my DAW to a screeching halt. I did a restore from an image back to a fresh install of Windows 7 x64. I installed the latest audio card drivers and video card drivers. Then I installed X1 from the original CD's and then Guitar Rig Pro 4. Created a project with 1 track and Guitar Rig and turn Input Echo on and CPU usage was barely registering which is the way it normally works. Windows Task Manager reported 5% CPU usage. I installed the X1C patch ... loaded up a 1 track project with Guitar Rig and bam ... my CPU usage was back up to 30% and I have to jack up my buffers on my sound card to get my old projects to play ... and every one has every track frozen, so essentially I'm running 20 ~ 30 track projects with the Pro Channel and Boost 11 on the master bus and that's it. 8 months of tweaking and putting up with the tool bar disappearing, pro channel turning on and off by itself, projects getting corrupted, formatting, reformatting, reinstalling, and a plethora of other bugs all for nothing in X1C. At least in X1B I was able to work around 50% of the bugs. I'm wiping my system again and going back to 8.5 and not even installing X1. If there's another free update before they ditch X1 I'll look in to it, but as of now, I'm done.
post edited by Bub - 2011/08/20 00:48:33
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Freddie H
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/20 06:55:05
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Coreparking....have you disable it? You Should!
Other things that can couse your problems are XP tweaks on WINDOWS 7.. I would recommend you clean install WINDOWS 7 from scratch and add of 4GB more RAM, and not alter your system with XP tweaks will do the trick. I bet it will work just like a charm!  I know you hate me  but I don't hate you.  I'm sorry that the truth is not so popular.. Best Regards Freddie
post edited by Freddie H - 2011/08/20 07:00:45
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Zo
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/20 07:25:36
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Bud ..after the install of X1c , try deleting the aud.ini file to force sonar redo a audio profiling .....i'm pretty sure those low perf when echo engaged are pure audio driver performance issues ....if it doesn't help , try with another soundcard just to check ....(i know it works well before x1c, but i want to figure if x1c have an impact on driver or not ..)
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pwal
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/20 07:48:08
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i suspect x1 of doing unusual things with drivers - e.g., what were those earlier changes for roland kit that broke the lynx drivers?
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Rimshot
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/20 08:06:22
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Bub,
Sorry about the issues you are having. I started a new project, loaded GR4 on one track. Selected "Sultans of Pop" for my GR4 preset. I noted the CPU usage in the upper right corner of GR4 at 6% and when I click HI, it goes up to 11%. When you are reporting 30% CPU usage, what does your GR4 show in the upper right corner for CPU usage in both regular and HI settings?
Rimshot Sonar Platinum 64 (Lifer), Studio One V3.5, Notion 6, Steinberg UR44, Zoom R24, Purrrfect Audio Pro Studio DAW (Case: Silent Mid Tower, Power Supply: 600w quiet, Haswell CPU: i7 4790k @ 4.4GHz (8 threads), RAM: 16GB DDR3/1600 , OS drive: 1TB HD, Audio drive: 1TB HD), Windows 10 x64 Anniversary, Equator D5 monitors, Faderport, FP8, Akai MPK261
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/20 10:00:45
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Well ... looks like I'm done. After a fresh install X1C still brings my DAW to a screeching halt. Hello Bub, I'm sorry that you are having so much frustration and trouble with your rig. From your description I'm certain that it has to do with the specific mix of hardware and software that your rig has. I will give you some background on what my hunches are, but before that I must request you to go slow with your generalizations and blanket assignment of blame to X1 for everything that goes wrong on your system. Not only is that unproductive in resolving the problem at hand, it isn't a useful way to troubleshoot. Just because you installed C and you observe problems doesn't necessarily mean the root issues reside in SONAR. There are many moving parts outside of SONAR which I hope to explain below. - You have indicated that you have a Core I5 machine. The core I5's use the SandyBridge chipset which use AVX instructions. SONAR has code optimized for this chipset and will use this code when AVX is detected. We have worked closely with Intel on this aspect. You can read more about our work in this area here on Intel's site http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/utilizing-intel-avx-with-cakewalk-sonar-x1/ The AVX instruction set has proven to be powerful for many daw centric operations. However its brand new technology and there have been some teething pains. For example there were some bugs in Microsoft's support for this. This is indeed one of the reasons that we shipped an updated redistributable in X1C - it resolved some of the issues people were having with fades and silent audio on Sandybridge systems. - There have also been some chipset design flaws with SandyBridge leading to product recalls. http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/31/intel-finds-sandy-bridge-chipset-design-flaw-shipments-stopped/ I believe that this has been sorted out in current generation I5 systems but you should verify that you don't have something from this period. I know that Dell was doing warranty replacements for this problem. If you have a system with this issue its very possible that the VS update could expose problems that were dormant before. - You report that installing C is causing performance to degrade in SONAR 8.5 as well. There are no Cakewalk shared components between X1 and 8.5 (besides the audio metronome) that would lead to reduced performance in this area. If you want to eliminate the audio metronome, simply turn it off from preferences. I was suspecting the VS2010 redistributable that X1C installs. However SONAR 8.5 doesn't use the Visual Studio 2010 libraries since it was built with an earlier version of the tools. Therefore it would seem to rule that out as a possibility. I'm not sure if Guitar Rig uses this though so it might still be a factor. I suggest you try this to further rule a few things out if you are willing to spend the time: Roll back to your original pre-X1 installation image. Ensure that 8.5 is working fine and you do not see excess load. Now install just the latest vs2010 redistributable from here: http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?displaylang=en&id=26999 Retest 8.5 and see if you still have problems. If you now notice the problem it would seem to indicate that something in the new redist is leading to the issue. Let us know your findings. If it does turn out to be Sandybridge related we may try and follow up with Intel with whom we have engineering contacts since some of these issues are outside our control and involve multiple companies. It would require your cooperation with our support staff to run tests as instructed so this is something only you can sign off on. Again I'm sorry that your experience with this has been bad. FWIW its definitely not the norm since there are many others running successful installations of SONAR (even with Sandybridge systems).
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John
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/20 10:19:43
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Noel may I suggest your post become a sticky. It explains so much that would apply to a lot of systems.
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JClosed
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/20 11:11:03
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Well - I had a post a while ago wherein I said a part of the problems could be explained by new hardware that hit the market after X1 was initially released. I was refering to the same SandyBridge chipset problems in early motherboards as Noel is refering to. I also suggested it could be related to a newer Intel compiler that is using the new architecture. Altough Noel does not say this compiler had to be adjusted, the naming of contacts with Intel seem to point in that direction. Of corse I was called a fanboy immediately, and it still was all Cakewalk's fault whatever I said..(just joking guys) Serious now.. What is interesting is that Noel said that several company's have been hit by this problems. If you take a short look at the Cubase forums (regarding Cubase 6) you can see this is (in my opinion) absolutely correct. Last june Steinberg brought out the third update (6.0.3), but still some problems seem to persist - especially some problems resembling problems mentioned here at this forum cached my eye. Also Cubase seem to have problems with his version of bitbridge, but I don't know if this is related. Older platforms (developed just before the new hardware became available and was introduced in the Intel compilers), or platforms that do not take advance of new hardware, would have less problems.. Anyway - this is just a side note... The above could explain I have almost no problems. My SandyBridge chipset (H67) motherboard is of a later make and has the hardware design flaw already corrected. The other computer I use is an somewhat older type that has a I3-540 (no SandyBridge type) processor and motherboard. I am really curious if Bub can pin-point his problems down to the new Intel design. This is interesting...
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Bub
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/20 20:02:15
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Well ... looks like I'm done. After a fresh install X1C still brings my DAW to a screeching halt. Hello Bub,
I'm sorry that you are having so much frustration and trouble with your rig.
Thanks Noel. I do appreciate you taking the time to respond to me. And John is right, this would make a great sticky thread. I would ask you remove our interaction and just provide the pertinent information regarding Sandybridge and the recall. I'm being as careful as I can to word this right so nobody is offended and everyone is clear on what's been going on with my system. I think this is the first problem I've had with X1 that was beyond X1's control. I think it has something to do with the NET 2010 Redistributable because more than one program is being effected by this. That's just a hunch, I have nothing to back that with. I mentioned that previously in another thread. From your description I'm certain that it has to do with the specific mix of hardware and software that your rig has. I will give you some background on what my hunches are, but before that I must request you to go slow with your generalizations and blanket assignment of blame to X1 for everything that goes wrong on your system. Not only is that unproductive in resolving the problem at hand, it isn't a useful way to troubleshoot. Just because you installed C and you observe problems doesn't necessarily mean the root issues reside in SONAR. There are many moving parts outside of SONAR which I hope to explain below.
The main thing I want to get across is, all of the problems I have run in to prior to this have been addressed by patches or are being worked on for future releases. The point I'm making with that is, let's not be so quick to blame this on my DAW since 100% of the problems I've seen so far have been something in X1 and not anything to do with my PC. I did have a bad stick of RAM when I first built my DAW, but that was resolved over a year ago. In other words, when you say "frustration and trouble with your rig", I just want to make sure you and everyone reading this knows the problems I've had, have been confirmed problems with X1, and most have been fixed with patches, and the ones that weren't fixed, I've been told are being worked on. Besides this CPU thing, there is only a couple of things left that I can see that need to be addressed and X1 will be rock solid for what I use it for. So I hope that clears up where I'm coming from. - You have indicated that you have a Core I5 machine. The core I5's use the SandyBridge chipset which use AVX instructions. SONAR has code optimized for this chipset and will use this code when AVX is detected. We have worked closely with Intel on this aspect. You can read more about our work in this area here on Intel's site
http://software.intel.com/en-us/articles/utilizing-intel-avx-with-cakewalk-sonar-x1/
The AVX instruction set has proven to be powerful for many daw centric operations. However its brand new technology and there have been some teething pains. For example there were some bugs in Microsoft's support for this. This is indeed one of the reasons that we shipped an updated redistributable in X1C - it resolved some of the issues people were having with fades and silent audio on Sandybridge systems. - There have also been some chipset design flaws with SandyBridge leading to product recalls.
http://www.engadget.com/2011/01/31/intel-finds-sandy-bridge-chipset-design-flaw-shipments-stopped/
I believe that this has been sorted out in current generation I5 systems but you should verify that you don't have something from this period. I know that Dell was doing warranty replacements for this problem. If you have a system with this issue its very possible that the VS update could expose problems that were dormant before.
My i5 is a 750 made prior to Jan 2011. According to what I've read, Sandybridge CPU's were released Jan 2011 so I'm thinking mine is not a Sandybridge.
- You report that installing C is causing performance to degrade in SONAR 8.5 as well. There are no Cakewalk shared components between X1 and 8.5 (besides the audio metronome) that would lead to reduced performance in this area. If you want to eliminate the audio metronome, simply turn it off from preferences. I was suspecting the VS2010 redistributable that X1C installs. However SONAR 8.5 doesn't use the Visual Studio 2010 libraries since it was built with an earlier version of the tools. Therefore it would seem to rule that out as a possibility. I'm not sure if Guitar Rig uses this though so it might still be a factor.
I suggest you try this to further rule a few things out if you are willing to spend the time:
I have an image of my Windows 7 x64 installation with no updates at all and nothing but the OS. I'll try what you suggest below and get back to you. My ISP has been up and down (mostly down) for 3 days now so as soon as they get back up and running properly I'll do this and download the update.
Roll back to your original pre-X1 installation image.
Ensure that 8.5 is working fine and you do not see excess load.
Now install just the latest vs2010 redistributable from here:
http://www.microsoft.com/download/en/details.aspx?displaylang=en&id=26999
Retest 8.5 and see if you still have problems. If you now notice the problem it would seem to indicate that something in the new redist is leading to the issue.
Let us know your findings. If it does turn out to be Sandybridge related we may try and follow up with Intel with whom we have engineering contacts since some of these issues are outside our control and involve multiple companies. It would require your cooperation with our support staff to run tests as instructed so this is something only you can sign off on. Again I'm sorry that your experience with this has been bad. FWIW its definitely not the norm since there are many others running successful installations of SONAR (even with Sandybridge systems).
I don't think my i5 750 is a Sandybridge CPU. The info I could find said they were released Jan 2011 and my CPU is a lot older than that. Is there a way to run the X1C patch from a 'Run' box and add a switch to prevent the redistributable from installing? Thanks, Bub
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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timidi
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/20 20:25:10
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I think there is another DAW builder I have seen posting here but I cannot remember the name). ADK
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/20 23:53:22
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Try running astra32 and see if it reports Advanced Vector Extensions (AVX) support under instrucction set. That means its sandy bridge.
www.astra32.com
There is no way to install X1 without the redist and even if you could the application wouldnt launch.
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Bub
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/21 00:37:04
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Try running astra32 and see if it reports Advanced Vector Extensions (AVX) support under instrucction set. That means its sandy bridge.
www.astra32.com
Hi Noel, I just restored from an image that has nothing on it but Windows 7 and all updates as of January 26th, 2011. I just installed Astra32 and it says "Advanced Vector Extensions (AVX) not supported". I have to install my M-Audio Fast Track Ultra drivers, load 8.5, then do the redistributable update from the link you provided. Thanks, Bub
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/21 07:47:00
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Did you have Windows 7 SP1 installed? That is required to detect AVX support.
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Bub
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/21 17:51:38
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"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/22 00:04:48
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Apparently your cpu is a lynnfield not a sandybridge so it doesnt support AVX.
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jamesday
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/22 12:06:11
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Bub
I'm 100% certain SP1 was not installed in that image I restored from. Unfortunately my ISP is still down and I can't do any updates.
Here are links to the components of my PC:
Intel i5 750 Lynnfield
Gigabyte GA-P55M-UD2 LGA 1155 P55 Micro ATX
Kingston 2GB DDR3 1333 RAM
Western Digital Caviar Blue WD3200AAKS 320GB 7200 RPM 16MB Cache 3.0Gb/s
As soon as my ISP comes back up I'll update to SP1 and run Astra32 again just to be sure.
Thanks,
Bub
hey bub. sorry i'm so late chiming in here, but i'm experiencing the same problem wX1C and gr 4. increased cpu load and consistant spikes over 30% w/1 audio track and gr 4 as an effect. i also got a fatal error msg and a request to forward the crashlog to ni. i did that and am waiting for ni's tech reply. i'm not to knowledgeable about any of this stuff but if i can be of any help...thx.
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Bub
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/22 14:09:01
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Hi Jamesday,
Thanks for chiming in on this. I was starting to think I was going crazy. Please keep us posted as to what NI says.
Bub
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Jim Roseberry
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/22 14:14:52
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Thanks for chiming in on this. I was starting to think I was going crazy. Please keep us posted as to what NI says. Hi Bub, Do you experience the same CPU spikes when working at both 44.1k and 96k? The reason I ask, I remember an issue with Reaper 4 and the FTU8R when running at 96k. Glitches/etc... Wasn't down to lack of performance... just an issue between the audio interface/driver and Reaper... and it only happened when running at 96k. 88.2 worked just fine... (as did 44.1k, 48k, etc)
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jamesday
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/22 14:17:00
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Bub
Hi Jamesday,
Thanks for chiming in on this. I was starting to think I was going crazy. Please keep us posted as to what NI says.
Bub
hey bub. i sure will. last time i dealt w/ni tech support it took about 3 days to receive feedback. i'll let you know what they might have to say. edit/jim roseberry: i'm at 24/44.
post edited by jamesday - 2011/08/22 14:19:36
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Bub
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/22 14:35:24
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Apparently your cpu is a lynnfield not a sandybridge so it doesnt support AVX.
Yep. I'm seeing this problem now even when I do a system restore from a drive image with just Windows 7 x64 and 8.5.3 x64/Guitar Rig x64 (without SP1). So at this point I'm at a loss? Something is either not getting wiped out and overwritten when I'm doing the system restores from the drive images, or something got fried on my mobo. Thanks, Bub
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Bub
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/22 14:48:00
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Jim Roseberry
Thanks for chiming in on this. I was starting to think I was going crazy. Please keep us posted as to what NI says.
Hi Bub,
Do you experience the same CPU spikes when working at both 44.1k and 96k?
The reason I ask, I remember an issue with Reaper 4 and the FTU8R when running at 96k.
Glitches/etc...
Wasn't down to lack of performance... just an issue between the audio interface/driver and Reaper... and it only happened when running at 96k. 88.2 worked just fine... (as did 44.1k, 48k, etc)
Hi Jim, It's higher now across all the sampling rates but it is much worse at 96k, that's as high as my FTU goes. It's most noticeable with Guitar Rig, but it's happening on large projects with all wav's and a few effects on the master bus. I've been using 96k for a while now but after the C update, when I open up my older projects now, the CPU is spiking to 50% ~ 60% and causing pops and clicks that didn't happen before. Something could have got fried (HDD, CPU, Mobo) and it was just coincidence that I noticed it when I did the X1C update. I don't know. I'm kind of at a loss on this one.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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Rimshot
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/22 15:38:32
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Hi Bub, Any response you can give to my inquiry at http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=2369195 ? I can't duplicate the high CPU usage you are having. What does your GR4 state with CPU usage with normal and HI settings?
Rimshot Sonar Platinum 64 (Lifer), Studio One V3.5, Notion 6, Steinberg UR44, Zoom R24, Purrrfect Audio Pro Studio DAW (Case: Silent Mid Tower, Power Supply: 600w quiet, Haswell CPU: i7 4790k @ 4.4GHz (8 threads), RAM: 16GB DDR3/1600 , OS drive: 1TB HD, Audio drive: 1TB HD), Windows 10 x64 Anniversary, Equator D5 monitors, Faderport, FP8, Akai MPK261
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Rimshot
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/22 15:38:38
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Hi Bub, Any response you can give to my inquiry at http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.ashx?m=2369195 ? I can't duplicate the high CPU usage you are having. What does your GR4 state with CPU usage with normal and HI settings?
Rimshot Sonar Platinum 64 (Lifer), Studio One V3.5, Notion 6, Steinberg UR44, Zoom R24, Purrrfect Audio Pro Studio DAW (Case: Silent Mid Tower, Power Supply: 600w quiet, Haswell CPU: i7 4790k @ 4.4GHz (8 threads), RAM: 16GB DDR3/1600 , OS drive: 1TB HD, Audio drive: 1TB HD), Windows 10 x64 Anniversary, Equator D5 monitors, Faderport, FP8, Akai MPK261
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jbow
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/22 16:38:53
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Hello Bub, I'm sorry that you are having so much frustration and trouble with your rig. From your description I'm certain that it has to do with the specific mix of hardware and software that your rig has. I will give you some background on what my hunches are, but before that I must request you to go slow with your generalizations and blanket assignment of blame to X1 for everything that goes wrong on your system. Not only is that unproductive in resolving the problem at hand, it isn't a useful way to troubleshoot. Just because you installed C and you observe problems doesn't necessarily mean the root issues reside in SONAR. There are many moving parts outside of SONAR which I hope to explain below. Noel, IMO, this is a shining example of great customer support. I can tell from your post that you really care about getting this problem fixed for Bub, I am sure everyone sees it and it sticks out like a red rose in a briar patch. Really good customer service, even that which struggles and takes some time and sorting out cannot help but shine these days. We are used to talking to "Peggy" when we call CS for so many companies. You guys really shine. I wonder if you could remotely access Bub's machine with something Go To My PC and see exactly what is going on... or maybe one of the guys on the tech team will be in Bub's neighborhood one day. Nothing would surprise me right now re: your CS efforts to fix this. It seems to me that you have taken a real interest in knowing what is going on, and it seems to me that it really bothers you that you haven't been able to get it fixed. Perhaps as I read the rest of the thread I will find that it has been solved. I hope so. I get the idea that it is a bur under your saddle and yu need to get it fixed as much as Bub wants to get it fixed. I am impressed. Julien
Sonar Platinum Studiocat Pro 16G RAM (some bells and whistles) HP Pavilion dm4 1165-dx (i5)-8G RAM Octa-Capture KRK Rokit-8s MIDI keyboards... Control Pad mics. I HATE THIS CMPUTER KEYBARD!
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Bub
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/22 16:58:01
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Please Jbow ... lets keep this thread negative. CRAP! Now I remember why I hate using Internet Explorer 8! All my formatting options in the reply box are missing on the forum here.
There's supposed to be a smiley behind my comment.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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John
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/22 17:02:49
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Now I know why I don't watch Jersey Shores. 
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Bub
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/22 17:14:14
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LOL!
John, that's funny on more levels than you'll ever know.
"I pulled the head off Elvis, filled Fred up to his pelvis, yaba daba do, the King is gone, and so are you."
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John
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Re:X1c CRAZY !
2011/08/22 17:20:43
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Bub
LOL!
John, that's funny on more levels than you'll ever know.
Thats why I do like you BUb. You can get jokes.
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