Danny - thanks so much for the extra crits!  I appreciate it!  I will certainly check out those areas you and mark mentioned on the drums. I think I probably screwed them up when I laid in the new bass track.  I'm working on that now.  and I've probably never gotten the voal levels quite right, but I will adjust them again.   On the bass, yeah I hear it, but I might leave that.  it kind of adds some tension there and doesn't really bother me. 

phew!  it seems it's never "done" eh?  thanks for the help.  I'll be working on changes again.

Charlie - I'm not sure you were really wrong, I think these changes we're making now are mostly just "tweaks" - at least that's my opinion!  for whatever that's worth! LOL!  I will absolutly check out the drums - I probably buried them when I laid Ed's bass in.  yep!  it's such a delicate balance game!  very glad it catches you and very glad you like it!  thanks so much!

Bub - Ed's can take it!  he has big moobs shoulders! 

Strumster - I appreciate your stoppin' by for a listen!  thanks so much for the kind words and I'll pass along your praise to the others who don't read these forums (Steve & Yvonne).  thanks again!

From Steve Rohlfing: 

bass dropped out at 1:36
could use a de-esser on BGV's at 2:14
acoustic guitar out of time at 2:46
3:55 - just can't keep that acoustic player on task, can you?  (he's the acoustic player!)

Steve - I'll just dock his pay!   - thanks for those crits - I'm working on those areas as well.

I'll be working on a new mix trying to straighten out some of the things mentioned above.  thanks again everyone!

Beagle


From Steve Rohlfing: 

bass dropped out at 1:36 

Hmmmmm. I just checked my raw bass track @ 1:36. All notes seem solid to me.


Maybe a masking issue?

Just had to come back and hear Ed play.  Sweet!  Glad I did.  Nice!  :)

What are you singing at :41?  (right before 'you')  Oh, wait, 3rd time thru...I got it!   I wonder if you shouldn't enunciate that 't' in 'to' (in 'cry to you') a little more when singing it there? (like I'm a singing expert...oh well.  lol)  

There, how's that for picky? 

Anyway, sounds really good to me....I know it's great to have a song done!  Great job!  How many more have you got lined up?  

That's really nice Reece.

Well Reece, you know I love ya.  I hear the bass just fine and Ed is playing a nice part.  The problem is the tone.  When I first started playing bass instead of guitar I had one Bassman cabinet.  This is what that sounded like, imho.  I moved up to dual showman stacks and then to big vox amps.  They gave me a beefier bass.  That's the best way I can explain what I'm hearing.  The whole song is really good.  Rich on sax is ALWAYS a plus.  I've listened about 5 times to make sure I'm hearing the same thing each time.  I think your voice sounds GREAT but might be a bit loud.  Love the bgv.  I think a "bassier" bass tone and a bit back on the vocal will make me happy.  That's all we're worried about, right?  LOL.  It's a very good song and well played!  Oh, I went back and forth ferom M-Audio BX8a monitors to Sennheiser Pro phones.  I got the same thing from both.  I know I'm late to the party, sorry!   Is it just me on the bass tone?

evadianepug


Is it just me on the bass tone?

Warren, I think bass tones are always going to be a bit subjective. Ed isn't crazy about the bass tones I get and I'm usually not crazy about the ones he gets...yet we both like the notes we play....sorta. LOL!
 
The bass could have had a deeper or richer tone going on...but it may have been like Ed said...it may have lost impact. I actually wouldn't mind hearing a bit more 60 hz out of the kick drum on this which would round out the low end nicely.
 
Another way to look at it is, I made a comment on your tune that was recently revived. Most of the people in that thread complimented you on the bass tone. Though I love the bass tone you used also, there's definitely some subby's going on that I wouldn't have left in if I were mixing it. That's honestly not meant to be a dig on you...I just hear a bit of a rumble on my end that I'd curb, that's all.
 
That said, leaving rumbles or a bit of sub in a bass or deciding to take them out isn't right or wrong...just a matter of personal preference which also depends on how our monitors and rooms are set up too, ya know? :) So it's obvious you're feeling a little more low end on the bass after hearing your tune and I can see why you may have questioned the tone here.
 
But to answer your question, imho, this bass tone didn't hit me as needing any work other than *possibly* some of the subjective note choices I mentioned. It was nice to hear a little percussiveness in the bass that wasn't too clicky or clacky...but that's just me. :)
 
Most of us older guys like a little more low end to our basses...but Ed's been working on so many different styles, he's conforming to a little less "ooom" low end and a bit of percussiveness which is what quite a bit of the more modern stuff is calling for. Especially in the CHB where deep bass sounds can clash with super gain guitar sounds like mad if you're not careful. :)
 
Rich: now that you've joined us...most awesome sax part man! Loaded with expression, taste and tone! :)
 
-Danny

bapu - Thanks so much!  I really appreciate your contribution on this project, I believe your bass brought this sound to a new level.

Rich - glad to see you here, my friend!  thanks so much for your contribution on this song, it's really great work and the song would not be the same without it!  I hope we can work together again sometime!

Warren - thanks so much for the listen and the comments!  I appreciate it very much!  I will revisit the vocals again.  I'm not promising I'll change the volume on them, but I will check it!  I don't want them to overpower the instruments, but this genre is not one to have the vocals sit low in the mix, either.  they don't need to be overpowering, but they do need to be dominant in the mix. 

I'll address your bass issue below.  thanks again for the listen and comments!  I always appreciate everyone's comments (even if I don't agree - I still appreciate them!)

Danny - I will revisit the kick again, but I'm almost at a loss on that.  I've tweaked it each time you've mentioned it and the last time I bumped 80Hz from your comments, I had boosted the 80Hz so much at that point that I had to put an extra compressor on the kick alone because it was hitting over 0dB.  I understand and realize that sonar's 64bit engine allows internal overs without allowing clipping until you hit the converters going out, but I don't like it.  I prefer to keep all of my tracks and buses out of the red so that I don't have to compensate in other ares.

so I'll look at the kick some more, but at this point it might just be "what you hear is what you get."  thanks for all of your help, I do appreciate it very much!

Bapu, Danny & Warren - RE:  Bass tone
Ed sent me both his processed track and his raw track.  I put both tracks into the project and did comparisons from those inputs.  It seemed to me that if I used the processed track, I'd be trying to add processing on top of processing to get the sound to come out right.  but since I had the raw track I thought it would be better to sculpt the sound from the raw instead of trying to rework the processed.

To my ears on my system the bass tone sounds fine.  I will caveat that with the reality that I do not have a subwoofer for my studio.  I do have 8" monitors (behringer truths) and they do a decent job on pushing some bass air, but they still don't have the low end response that a good sub does.

so I could be missing some elements of my mixing by not having a sub.  at this time, I simply can't afford a sub of the quality that I want and I refuse to buy one that's not minimally acceptable.  what's the point in having a "sub-par" sub?   that might even HURT my mixes in the low end instead of help them.

But it seems to me, at this point, that these tweaks we're suggesting here are very subjective and are more "fine tuning" to each person's taste than it is correcting things in a mix which are incorrect and poor for the song. 

So I will revisit the vocal levels, the kick low end, and the bass low end based on your comments here because I want you to understand that I always value your opinions.  I'm sincere about that.  I hope you continue to comment even if I decide "enough is enough." 

I'm sure I know, but I'll let the guys give it a try first.  

Reece
So I will revisit the vocal levels, the kick low end, and the bass low end based on your comments here because I want you to understand that I always value your opinions. I'm sincere about that. I hope you continue to comment even if I decide "enough is enough."

You rule Reece, don't ever change brother. :) Everyone knows how sincere you always are...I'll always be here for ya man.

Reece
Ok guys - I guess I'm gonna eat crow! I think I found the problem that you guys were complaining about and I can hear a huge difference now in the low end. both the kick and the bass came alive when I fixed this problem.

give it another listen, please and let me know what you think and then I'll tell you what I did to solve the low end problem on kick and bass!

LOL See, we told ya! :) Yeah this is definitely better. Don't shoot me, but I think the bass is a bit hot and has also picked up a bit of distortion that it could probably lose...but that's just me as I'm usually not a man that likes much drive on a bass. But the kick and bass are definitely talking to each other better now. Hats improved and audible now too. The bass could stand a bit of lower mids removed in my opinion to help give it a less boxy sound...maybe a little more clack at about 2.5k...but you're really getting close on this now and it will all pretty much be subjective. Nice job on the changes and I appreciate your hard work on this applying the fixes. :)

-Danny

I would scoop out around 350hz on the bass (maybe even lower) and then notch it out wherever the low end of the kick is. And find the clicky part of the kick and boost that.

Overall, this is much better sounding than the last version I heard. But the low end is just overwhelming things now.

This improves with each iteration.
 
As to comments about Bass I have to say I am not totally convinced that it is all down to the mix.  I have noticed that certain tracks get quite badly squished by Soundcloud.  I have found that the least effected tracks are those I convert to MP3 128Kbs Unicode, these seem the least troubled by this problem. 

Perhaps a listen to the original wave would be helpful?

Good work anyway to all those involved.

Beagle 

so I checked it this morning from this system and yeah, the bass is boomy now.  I go from one extreme to another. 

 

Remember carburetors, Reece? And adjusting the idle air screw? Turn the screw clockwise 'till the engine stumbles, then counterclockwise 'till it stumbles, then set it in the middle and she purrs like a kitten. Sometimes this process reminds me of that.
Yeah, the bass is a bit much right now, but you are doing a fine job of dialing this project in.
Threads like this are my favorite songs forum threads, because we get to see detailed and specific suggestions, and hear them applied.
I know I have learned a lot from discussions like this one.
This is a compelling song, and I have really enjoyed listening to it get polished.

Trying to listen, Soundcloud isn't playing nice at the moment. Grrr.

Got it going now. For some reason I had to open up the link in IE.

This is an excellent mix in my opinion. Love the organ!

The only thing that kind of catches my attention is the hi-hat should be a bit back more in some spots, and the splash should be a bit more forward, especially going in to the lead.

But it could be my ears. I've been plugged up lately, that's why I haven't been at the DAW.

I'd like to hear this in a hi-q MP3.

Box.net is free ya know. ;)

Also, probably a personal preference but not the lead Vox seems a bit to far back (again..... for me).