Do you ever wonder why many "artists" don't seem to be aware of...

I think I just saw the penny drop on your realisation of this idea.

Me? I've known it all along...

mike_mccue


... the general themes revered, saved, and passed down by the worlds collective history of literature and the arts?



For example the often popular "tragic hero"?

Why do so many artists forge ahead and attempt to repeat the process when presumably every culture has an allegorical tale, supported by many illustrative works of visual and sometimes musical art, that explains how forcefully attempting to act as a hero often results in the predictable consequence of self destruction?




Maybe the scholars have already figured this out?

I'd sure like to know why. If I knew a good reason I'd be less likely to dismiss a perpetrator as just another ignorant artist.



best regards,
mike

In my opinion Mike, I think it just works. For example, sometimes (as I'm sure you know) it's really hard to be an innovator. No matter how skilled any of us may be, those that are creative or invent so to speak, usually have this certain something that other do not. I think when we sometimes repeat or use something that's been done before that we are just enjoying the moment really.
 
Other times, it's amazing what you can learn from just performing a cover in your image, ya know? Using themes that have already been done 1000 times with your own spin just sort of allows the vibe to pass. For example, there are quite a few mainstream artitsts that do the same old stuff for at least 6 songs out of their 10 song album. But the other 4 songs which the masses would consider "filler material" are actually the real band material and aren't usually as well received unless you're a die-hard fan.
 
I love Van Halen as many people know. One of their least favorite records is Fair Warning. It happens to be one of my favorites because it's NOT like any other VH album. But only 3 songs off that album really got any airplay and the only people that dig that album are die-hards like myself. According to the band, it was "a dark time for them" and they were rushed to do that record.
 
But I dunno man....in my experience, having fun with something even if it's been done before, can also be inspiring. For example, you know how when you do a cover tune, it's like almost a no-brainer because all the parts are already written? Yet, in that cover tune, you may learn a few progressions and new chords that you may not have used before. I think doing things that are easy can really help us to grow.
 
The same as the artist that tells the tragic hero story or the guy that constantly writes about wishing he had love yet always fails. Sooner or later, you sort of come into your own. I had an old girlfriend that used to say "you gotta kiss a lot of frogs to meet a prince."
 
I think the same can be said about writing songs or coming up with new themes. Sometimes you just go with the flow and do something that's been done before so you can put something out there. Just about all the time, you learn something from a song your write or a song you cover...so not all hope is lost. However, some people have a very difficult time leaving this mode and that's where it can become boring or "same old same old". Tough call really...but I just like to go with the flow. If I do something ground-breaking in the process, for sure I welcome it. If I just rehash some stuff and I can smile at the end of it still, well, I think that's still a good place to be, don't you? :)
 
-Danny

You know, as I was typing I kind athought I may have had this wrong. So sorry for that man. Totally understand what you mean now. You ask a great question...one in which I don't have an answer for. I never really thought about this until you mentioned it. I'm going to give it some serious thought and see what I come up with. :) Sorry again for misunderstanding.

-Danny

Hi Danny,
 I didn't consider your contribution a misunderstanding but rather I thought of it as an enrichment to the dialog.

Thanks.


best,
mike

Mike, I, um, hate to point this out to you, but Ernest Hemingway already said basically the same thing a long time ago:

There is no use writing anything that has been written before unless you can beat it. What a writer in our time has to do is write what hasn’t been written before or beat dead men at what they have done.

 

It's possible that Mr Hemingway was part of a generation that was having to learn ways to adjust to the rapidly changing expectations of an audience. Expectations that were influenced by the proliferation of easy access to content.

As I say, I am not speaking so much about the actual work product but rather the mindset of the artist.

Also, I happen to disagree with Mr. Hemmingway. I think any post modernist is comfortable with the idea that it's ok to repeat what has been done before. That's why I like process art... I can play the Blues a million times. Or I can paint a landscape. I can enjoy doing that simply for the experience of doing it, and that's ok... cause everything else is a figment of something that happens else where any way.

I don't want to splatter my personal take on art all over the forum.

My OP was meant to be more specific than that.

:-)


best regards,
mike

Starise


There is a theory that goes like this: Idols/heros fill a gap in ourselves that is like God status. The "hole" that exists must be filled one way or another. We look for people to fill it and there are plenty of people willing to fill it. If we choose to deny existence in a deity,we only have ourselves and our heros. Both fail.

This reminds me of some of Joseph Campbell's presentations.

Powerful stuff.

Although I don't advocate psychiatrists, there certainly is a psychological aspect that plays a role in all of this and just looking up some definitions, there maybe some answers all the "heroe's" within ....

grandiosity - An inflated appraisal of one's worth, power, knowledge, importance, or identity. When extreme, grandiosity may be of delusional proportions. 


delusion - A false belief based on incorrect inference about external reality that is firmly sustained despite what almost everyone else believes and despite what constitutes incontrovertible and obvious proof or evidence to the contrary. The belief is not one ordinarily accepted by other members of the person's culture or subculture (e.g., it is not an article of religious faith). When a false belief involves a value judgment, it is regarded as a delusion only when the judgment is so extreme as to defy credibility. Delusional conviction occurs on a continuum and can sometimes be inferred from an individual's behavior. It is often difficult to distinguish between a delusion and an overvalued idea (in which case the individual has an unreasonable belief or idea but does not hold it as firmly as is the case with a delusion). Delusions are subdivided according to their content. Some of the more common types are: bizarre; delusional jealousy; grandiose; delusion of reference; persecutory; somatic; thought broadcasting; thought insertion.

magical thinking - A conviction that thinking equates with doing. Occurs in dreams in children, in primitive peoples, and in patients under a variety of conditions. Characterized by lack of realistic relationship between cause and effect.

mike_mccue


I enjoy the process of "making" and prefer that over "displaying".
 

You'll get no chicks that way.


I gotta go with Bubba on this one. I believe everyone wants to be "the hero". They all just go about it differently.

See? You prolly don't want the chicks and to you, that makes you the hero of your art.

Mesh


 magical thinking - A conviction that thinking equates with doing. Occurs in dreams in children, in primitive peoples, and in patients under a variety of conditions. Characterized by lack of realistic relationship between cause and effect.

(The late) Steve Jobs attempted to treat his cancer this way. 'Nuff said.

mike_mccue

That's deep. 

The problem with your theory is that I Am a chick magnet... I'm hi Gauss baby.

You got any more theories?

:-)

Ya

mike_mccue



The OP merely asks why a subset of the arts community will often times take up the task of styling a contemporary dialog while seemingly unfamiliar with the well known idea that self styled heroes rarely are for long.

Because they can't be arsed to do it the other way?

mike_mccue


I'm thinking I should look "arse" up in the O.E.D. before I reply.

Don't be bothered with facts. They'll just clutter your mind and cover up the real you.

A legend in your own mind persona?

Thanks for adding to the conversation Mosh!

best,
mike