Helpful Replyi7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x

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Jim Roseberry
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2017/03/21 16:35:30 (permalink)

i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x

Low latency performance comparison of the i7-6850k, Ryzen 1800x, and i7-7700k
 
6850k - six cores @ 4GHz
1800x - eight cores @ 4GHz
7700k - four cores @ 4.5GHz
 
Audio Interface:
RME Fireface UFX at a 48-sample ASIO buffer size 44.1k
 
Audio Stress Test
Running DAW Bench (Reaper version of the test with its multi-band compressor for load)... here are the maximum instances that each CPU could run completely glitch-free:
  • 6850k - 223 instances of the multi-band compressor (CPU load with transport running was 99%)
  • 7700k - 180 instances of the multi-band compressor (CPU load with transport running was 95%)
  • 1800x - 170 instances of the multi-band compressor (CPU load with transport running was 93%)
 
Generic Benchmarks
Floating Point Math
  • 1800x - 16126
  • 6850k - 12212
  • 7700k - 8816
Integer Math
  • 1800x - 43898
  • 6850k - 29468
  • 7700k - 21921
Single Thread
  • 7700k - 2641
  • 6850k - 2335
  • 1800x - 2104
 
If you just look at the generic CPU benchmarks, you'd expect the 1800x to smoke the 6850k.
This is why audio specific low-latency stress-testing is important.
 
For low-latency audio work, the i7-7700k ($300) is outperforming the 1800x ($500).
That kills the impetus to use the 1800x.
For working with heavy loads at low-latency, the i7-6850k ($500) is the best of the three.
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
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BobF
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/03/21 16:49:48 (permalink)
<sigh>
 
I just bought an i7-6700 and I already feel inadequate 

Bob  --
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#2
Jim Roseberry
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/03/21 17:13:08 (permalink)
7700k is but a small notch faster than the 6700k.
Cost difference is about $30... and that's about commensurate with the performance gain.  

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/03/21 17:17:35 (permalink)
BobF
<sigh>
 
I just bought an i7-6700 and I already feel inadequate 




My i7 4790 still works for me.  So does my FX6300.

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#4
Jim Roseberry
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/03/21 17:26:14 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby synkrotron 2017/04/23 09:24:21
Not suggesting everyone run out an buy a new CPU.  
 
There's just been a lot of interest with the Ryzen CPUs being recently released.
Lots of hype about their performance.
It's important to know the details.

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
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BobF
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/03/21 19:04:28 (permalink)
Just joking around, Jim.  I appreciate all of the info you post 'round these parts. 

Bob  --
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fireberd
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/03/21 22:13:33 (permalink)
I recently (December) built an i7 6700K system.  It should last me for many years.  I don't feel "inadequate".  its a 6700K but I don't really plan on overclocking it, happened to get the 6700K model for the price of the 6700. 

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bvideo
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/03/22 00:12:41 (permalink)
It would be interesting to find out why the 1800x system glitches at a lower CPU %. DPC compared with the 6850K? Too many registers to save/restore on interrupts? Reaper not optimized for 1800x?

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BobF
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/03/22 01:11:33 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby abacab 2017/03/22 01:29:27
fireberd
I recently (December) built an i7 6700K system.  It should last me for many years.  I don't feel "inadequate".  its a 6700K but I don't really plan on overclocking it, happened to get the 6700K model for the price of the 6700. 




Seriously, my i5-3350P wasn't choking on anything I do, so I figure the 6700 will carry me for a good long while.

Bob  --
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smallstonefan
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/03/22 11:29:39 (permalink)
Thanks Jim!
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Jim Roseberry
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/03/22 13:26:00 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby bvideo 2017/03/22 18:29:57
bvideo
It would be interesting to find out why the 1800x system glitches at a lower CPU %. DPC compared with the 6850K? Too many registers to save/restore on interrupts? Reaper not optimized for 1800x?



DPC Latency was low/consistent... so that's not the culprit.  
 
Reaper is not fully optimized for the 1800x (no DAW app currently is).
I doubt it would make that significant of a difference.
I chose to test with Reaper... as it makes very efficient use of multiple cores.
 
FWIW, I think it's just down to the Ryzen architecture not being particularly well suited to processing multi-threaded applications at low-latency.  
Where low-latency isn't a factor (video rendering), Ryzen performs well.
 
Scan in the UK tested Ryzen and came to the exact same conclusion.
 
6850k craps out ~99% load.
7700k craps out ~95% load.
1800x craps out ~93% load.
 
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
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mettelus
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/03/22 16:04:28 (permalink)
The other things specific to Ryzen that stands out for me is power consumption. Single core performance of the 1800x is almost identical to my 2600K. Identical power consumption, although the 1800x has twice the core count. BIOS can play a lot into voltage on the CPU so makes me wonder how much of the variation stems beyond the Ryzen itself.

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Bhav
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/03/22 19:49:45 (permalink)
Get on my CPUs level!

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Bill Gabbert
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/04/23 08:30:19 (permalink)
I see Jim is a builder of Intel machines and so does have an agenda.
The math processing I would expect to be a direct Correlation to MIDI.
And in the real world there would be 6 or so VST's per  "real track".(Not blank)
and so a real world test, in a  (Better developed) studio IE -Pro Tools, Cakewalk, Cubase,of loaded audio tracks alternating with  MIDI tracks ... Might  revile 8 cores to be Superior to 6... and 4 cores @ 4.2 to much more quickly over heat.
 
However , I'm quite sure a Ryzen 1700x would be more than I would ever need.> (Around $360)
{and as a bonus , AMD boards  generally go for $100 less than Intel}
 
The down side is No Thunderbolt option , However RME is pro.
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/04/23 10:49:59 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ttoz 2018/06/30 11:03:34
I've found Jim to be a straight shooter on his many posts on here and his helping users.  I don't think he is on a "Intel only" mission.  If you don't agree with his test results do them yourself and report back. 

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Bill Gabbert
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/04/23 15:10:12 (permalink)
FireBerd
I have an (older) intel my self.
It’s Jim who says he is on the Intel Train. (See Jims link above)
Yes, I wish I had the resources to build 3 machines to test myself…So I like most rely on comprehensive test like the Benchmark scores collected from hundreds of persons  confirming the performance/Value of the Ryzen series processors. See>www   cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html
 
{I do not doubt Jims results- If anyone (Using "Reaper") feels the need to have a couple hundred tracks of nothing, with only 1 VST on each and NO MIDI...Intel is the way to go.}
post edited by Bill Gabbert - 2017/04/23 15:57:00
#16
InstrEd
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/04/23 16:10:52 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby ttoz 2018/06/30 11:03:55
Jim use to make AMD machine when they had a competitive product. Jim has no agenda.
The new Ryzen chips from AMD for a small home studio that uses the machine for video editing too would
probably be better then Intel machine.
The Ryzen chip performs very well, just not at super low ASIO buffer lsetting ike an Intel I-series chip does.
 

Instred
Chicagoland, IL 

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Jim Roseberry
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/04/23 16:50:01 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Mitch_I 2017/04/23 17:09:22
Bill Gabbert
FireBerd
I have an (older) intel my self.
It’s Jim who says he is on the Intel Train. (See Jims link above)
Yes, I wish I had the resources to build 3 machines to test myself…So I like most rely on comprehensive test like the Benchmark scores collected from hundreds of persons  confirming the performance/Value of the Ryzen series processors. See>www   cpubenchmark.net/high_end_cpus.html
 
{I do not doubt Jims results- If anyone (Using "Reaper") feels the need to have a couple hundred tracks of nothing, with only 1 VST on each and NO MIDI...Intel is the way to go.}




This is humerous...  
 
I've been building DAWs professionally for over 20 years.
We have no agenda... except to build the best possible DAWs for our clients.
We've used Athlon CPUs in the past (when they were out-performing Intel).
Had Ryzen 1800x performed superior to the latest Intel 7700k, 6850k, etc... we would have happily used them.
Had the 1800x lived up the the hype of performing nearly identical to the 6900k (at half the cost), it would have been great for our clients (and for business).  
For working with low-latency audio, based on audio specific stress-tests, this is not the case.
 
We use Intel CPUs... because (right now) they're the top performers.
If the 1800x lived up to the hype (for low-latency audio), why would we pump Intel at the cost of losing business? The short answer is... we wouldn't.
 
Even if the 1800x performed identical to the 6850k (both $500 CPUs), that's not enough of a reason to go AMD.
You forgo Intel USB, Thunderbolt-3 with full "PCIe via Thunderbolt support, etc.
 
If the 1700x or 1800x is enough CPU for you... more power to you.
We're building professionally.  Clients want the best possible machine.
I'm on the "Intel Train" because it's the best performance choice for myself and our clients.
If you were paying someone to build your next DAW... and going with a $500 CPU, would you want the top-performer, or would you be OK with a CPU that's "good enough"?
 
The proof is in low-latency audio specific stress-tests.
If/when AMD is outperforming Intel (running heavy loads at a 32/48/64-sample ASIO buffer size), that's when we'll use AMD.  
 
 
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
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#18
Jim Roseberry
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/04/23 16:52:02 (permalink)
InstrEd
The Ryzen chip performs very well, just not at super low ASIO buffer lsetting ike an Intel I-series chip does.



Bingo!

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
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Jim Roseberry
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/04/23 17:40:57 (permalink)
I'll tell you what...
I'll assemble yet another Ryzen 1800x build... and I'll max out the RAM speed.
I'll report back with the numbers.  

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
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interpolated
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/04/23 18:30:16 (permalink)
Been amd for years. Wants to get back to Intel.

I have computer stuff.
 
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interpolated
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/04/23 18:53:19 (permalink)
OK.
 
A proper answer now then.
 
Interesting to see some DAW benchmarks rather than gaming or other productivity. Even though the track count and overall production advantages are there.  It all depends on how you work and how much pre-processing you do before mixing anyway.
 
If you work with DSP as well this will increase your workflow as well, so processor capabilities alone are not always going to be a main factor for everyone. I do miss Intel though, even though the pricing is higher I think I miss their consistency in products.
 
 

I have computer stuff.
 
https://soundcloud.com/sigmadelta
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loopyd
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/04/25 07:27:59 (permalink)
BobF
<sigh>
 
I just bought an i7-6700 and I already feel inadequate 




Don't.  Kabylake sucks.  Skylake has better support.  Just don't make the mistake of getting a Z270 chipset with your skylake.  Kabylake boards don't like having to backwards compat them (even though same form factor, support for LGA1151, backwards compatible support is never good).
 
That one mishandled number (bold and big for you), causes so much frustration for so many people.

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Jim Roseberry
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/04/26 12:49:46 (permalink)
loopyd
BobF
<sigh>
 
I just bought an i7-6700 and I already feel inadequate 




Don't.  Kabylake sucks.  Skylake has better support.  Just don't make the mistake of getting a Z270 chipset with your skylake.  Kabylake boards don't like having to backwards compat them (even though same form factor, support for LGA1151, backwards compatible support is never good).
 
That one mishandled number (bold and big for you), causes so much frustration for so many people.




Where do you get this information???
 
The 6700k isn't Kabylake... it's Skylake.
Great balance of cost/performance... and runs super quiet.
The 7700k is about $30 more... and is slightly faster running at 4.5GHz vs. 4.2GHz for the 6700k.
 
There is no problem with Kabylake or the Z270 chipset.
 
If you want to see problematic/flaky motherboards, build a Ryzen 1800x machine with X370 motherboard running 32GB of DDR4/3200.  That's a whole world of "flake-dome"... deserving of its own post.  
 
 
 

Best Regards,

Jim Roseberry
jim@studiocat.com
www.studiocat.com
#24
interpolated
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/04/26 13:13:10 (permalink)
I think a major part of the options when picking an Intel setup is when going for a workstation rather than a gaming rig where the cost is prohibitive.

Not wanting multigpu rig myself.

I have computer stuff.
 
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loopyd
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/04/26 19:36:29 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby glennstanton 2017/04/27 13:30:09
Jim Roseberry
loopyd
BobF
<sigh>
 
I just bought an i7-6700 and I already feel inadequate 




Don't.  Kabylake sucks.  Skylake has better support.  Just don't make the mistake of getting a Z270 chipset with your skylake.  Kabylake boards don't like having to backwards compat them (even though same form factor, support for LGA1151, backwards compatible support is never good).
 
That one mishandled number (bold and big for you), causes so much frustration for so many people.




Where do you get this information???
 
The 6700k isn't Kabylake... it's Skylake.
Great balance of cost/performance... and runs super quiet.
The 7700k is about $30 more... and is slightly faster running at 4.5GHz vs. 4.2GHz for the 6700k.
 
There is no problem with Kabylake or the Z270 chipset.
 
If you want to see problematic/flaky motherboards, build a Ryzen 1800x machine with X370 motherboard running 32GB of DDR4/3200.  That's a whole world of "flake-dome"... deserving of its own post.  
 
 
 




You misinterpreted what I said.  I was being critical of a Kabylake's chipset support for a Skylake (backwards compatible support on a Kabylake board for a Skylake processor installed is spotty).  Was saying not to feel inadiquite about owning a Skylake.  Because all the kinks are not out of the Kabylake boards.  I've always recommended to stay one architecture behind and off the bleeding edge as far as reliability.  Which is why when someone talks about their Ryzen screwing up and unexplicably baking their mobo, BSODs and everything else, I get the runs from laughing.  I told the kids in PCMR choo choo stay off the hype train, you'll get burned.
 
I'm okay with my Skylake.  I can OC it to near 5 ghtz with a good liquid cooler.  Liquid nitrogeon and freeon coolers can get it higher.  But I'd rather not have to legally put a biohazard sticker on my machine.  Let alone deal with a condensor and an evaporator to prevent the humidity in the air liquifying and shorting things.  (guy on overclocking forums in foldathon pushed a skylake to 7 ghtz before it fried with a modded air conditioning loop)
 
My XSPC/Bitspower/Ek custom loop setup with a push/pull 360 radiator is more than well enough to bump a Skylake to 5.2 ghtz with no stability issues.  It sure will heat up a chilly room, though, the amount of heat coming off that radiator.
 
I type on an IBM model M, not a razor mechanical.  That should say something about my rock-solid-steady and reliable approach at building.  I tell everyone you get to close to that bleeding edge and you will be bleeding.  From the bank account.
post edited by loopyd - 2017/04/26 20:05:27

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Bill Gabbert
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/04/29 20:22:40 (permalink)
Jim: "I've been building DAWs professionally for over 20 years.
We have no agenda... except to build the best possible DAWs for our clients....would you want the top-performer, or would you be OK with a CPU that's "good enough"?
 
Although a "personal Budget System " the studio I'm upgrading is far superior to the pro system that you built 20 years ago. So do I need the "Best"? No,  20 years ago one needed the best , just to operate. Today one only needs a system that will do the job.
 
So pinching pennies.. What is the best VALUE that will do the job? That's the question the Average musician is asking. For the same money One gets an "RME card" with an AMD set up.... or a "Resident Audio TB" with Intel.
 
{And actually the "Recording Studio" is a thing of the past. In today's world ; If you don't have a Video to go with it ..It's not done....So rendering is a consideration} 
 
 
 
 
 
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/04/29 23:45:29 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby glennstanton 2017/05/02 14:08:26
Bill Gabbert
Jim: "I've been building DAWs professionally for over 20 years.
We have no agenda... except to build the best possible DAWs for our clients....would you want the top-performer, or would you be OK with a CPU that's "good enough"?
 
Although a "personal Budget System " the studio I'm upgrading is far superior to the pro system that you built 20 years ago. So do I need the "Best"? No,  20 years ago one needed the best , just to operate. Today one only needs a system that will do the job.
 
So pinching pennies.. What is the best VALUE that will do the job? That's the question the Average musician is asking. For the same money One gets an "RME card" with an AMD set up.... or a "Resident Audio TB" with Intel.
 
{And actually the "Recording Studio" is a thing of the past. In today's world ; If you don't have a Video to go with it ..It's not done....So rendering is a consideration} 




 Recommended minimum system specifications for a newer daw:
 
Intel i5 processor (Quad Core, sixth generation, 2015 second-quarter release or newer, minimum base clock:  3 ghtz, speedstep and smartcache optional.) -> https://ark.intel.com/products/family/88393/6th-Generation-Intel-Core-i5-Processors
If you want the cheap server setup, consider a 2013-2014 release Xeon (Generation E3 or newer) (much much cheaper than the newer Xeon chips and i5, i7, up to 44 threads (Oct core+, limited base clock) -> http://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/products/processors/xeon/e5-processors.html  thats the e5 line, but browse around for older on ebay.
Integrated graphcs controller capable of 1920x800 or any basic widescreen aspect ratio (16x9) in true color (32 bit color graphics mdoe) - most updated DAWs utilize widescreen format space quite nicely, gives you more room for your consules, racks, plugins, and libraries.
At least 16 GB DDR3, PC2300  or better, DIMM module RAM (I've seen ECC (error checking) RAM from servers used, works fine for a Xeon setup)  Large amount needed for project loading and fast sample processing.
Soundcard with either gameport to MIDI (old SBLive or Yamaha), or native MIDI-in/out, optical in/out, 3.5mm or 5mm in/out (headphones, mics, mixer in), PCIe card (I recommend Sound Blaster Z series), you can do without,
Powered USB hub for USB serial interfaces on hardware
No SSD needed, seagate or wd 5 tb drives are fine, seagate over wd, their mechanical drives suffer corruption a lot less than the newer, faster wd blacks.
If you want the rendering these specs change drastically.  You'll be looking at the NVidia Quadro line for that, and a samsung m.2 ssd, but a GTX 1060 is enough to get 4K rendering at reasonable speeds.  GTX line is more for gamers, Quadro for transcoding, number crunching and rendering, but you can squeeze by with a cheap newer GTX just fine (go a few generations back, before 1080, half the price).
 
If you're doing the server thing obviously some 3m thermal transfer tape and some block heatsinks to replace the junk thats there.  most server boards that support the old and good xeons are second hand ebay lucky finds.  and expect to have to mod a case for a server board to fit.  (unconventional full atx and power supply).
 
The server deal lets you skip the quadro and gtx because you can use all those extra threads as rendering threads.  You can slide in a budget of $650 for a "good enough" daw setup with lucky searches on ebay for old xeon chips and server mobos.
 
Otherwise, if you're not the build-savvy type, Dell XPS machines works just fine.

In therapy for SSH-shell second-hand-managed VPS-induced PTSD.
Courtesy BlueHost
 
#28
Bill Gabbert
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/04/30 08:22:18 (permalink)
Loopyd- 
  A  Soundblaster card for a DAW ?...Basically any audio interface would be a better alternative.(Behringer U-PHORIA UM2 @ $15 ebay. or a used us144 has midi @ $20) 
 Mechanical hard drives? Unreliable ,noisy & hot. SSD's are fast , silent & reliable and at all time low prices or Used, dirt cheap (One could have a 2TB external mechanical; for backup and past projects)
 
 
  But to the value  of the Rizen 5/7  (I have a Intel i5 that can do Alright with only a few tracks and a few VSTs... but will start glitching,with larger projects) So even a Ryzen 5 1600 6core has 30% more computing power at only $200 with heat sink (eBay ,New 5/1/17) and the new boards (With all the new features) can be had at Only $85. ( an old Intel at $175 ; plus an old board at $125 and a heat sink at 25....for under-preforming, old technology ...that can't up grade ... makes no sense.)
 
{A GTX 750 is plenty; as rendering is preformed primarily by the CPU}
( Can keep old DDR3 but have option to go with DDR4)
 
post edited by Bill Gabbert - 2017/05/01 19:20:40
#29
interpolated
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Re: i7-6850k vs. i7-7700k vs. Ryzen 1800x 2017/04/30 09:54:49 (permalink)
Offtopic: GPGPU functions don't really get used by many software packages other than where transcoding or rendering of computed objects is supported by the program itself. CUDA usually has support although even Adobe switched to OpenCL for their Photoshop packages to help with rendering on large resolutions and applying larger filter techniques. For a while only Nvidia was supported.
 
I suppose the key for any audio production software environment is fast reactive driver time, reasonable GPU for larger displays and fast processor. The SATA hard-drive is still going to be a faithful go to even if it's just for making archive back-ups.
 
You may as well go for the latest technology if it is a viable option. Having reasonably old technology myself I think this is a key issue is getting up to date. 
 

I have computer stuff.
 
https://soundcloud.com/sigmadelta
#30
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