• SONAR
  • I posted a feature requst to return layers as well as lanes [Living With Lanes] (p.6)
2013/12/22 12:55:06
Keni
Anderton
Keni
What about when you need to have unequal splits? Say a note hangs over differently on one track than another... Currently it's a pain to fix...

 
What's frustrating to me is you keep thinking things can't be done when they can in fact be done. Use the scissors tool instead of the comping tool - alt-click on the Take and you can split it wherever you want. If you have notes hanging over on one track that aren't on another, you're going to have to do custom splits no matter what.
 
You can also move the split point laterally between two individual adjacent clips and nothing else if you want.
 
Comping wants to force many things to happen to happen to all Lanes even if I only want to change one... Slipping the start pouint for example will move the start of the clip on all Lanes instead of the single one I'm trying to adjust...

 
It doesn't have to. Just select only the clips you want to affect. I have no problem slip editing individual clips. I think you haven't worked enough with the new tools to understand that they are not necessarily forcing you to work in particular ways, they default to working in particular ways but you still have a lot of flexibility in how you can use them.
 
How about the sometimes handy tool of simply clicking on the lane and play auto-starts there... Have you tried to get it to play from before the first note? I continually find myself clicking to select the clip I want to hear then I must stop the auto playback and re-locate the the start of playback...

 
I'm not quite sure I understand the problem but unless you're comping, don't use auto-playback and just place the now time where you want to start playing.
 
Suffice it to say that we all work differently and I'm a bit displeased that Cakewalk has taken it upon themselves to change tools that worked for many... with something that doesn't work for many...

 
It's an area of the program that has changed, and once you learn what those changes are, you will find that on balance the changes allow for far more flexibility than was possible with layers. So far the things you've mentioned can be done, and easily. It's like the person who was disappointed because layers let him play back multiple tracks simultaneously through an individual FX bin and bus and he didn't want to have to give that up with the new Take Lane paradigm. But you can do that with the new Take Lanes.
 
I think the real issue is that it's annoying to have a workflow all figured out, and then have to modify it to accommodate something that's changed. The question then becomes whether the time lost learning the new workflow will be compensated for by offering a smoother user experience that will save time overall and make for more efficient operation in the future. In my Sound on Sound column on comping with X3, I mentioned the initial difficulty I had figuring out the new Take Lane paradigm. I really had a hard time wrapping my head around it at first. But I read all the online documentation and spent a couple days experimenting with different scenarios. After those two days were done, I would NEVER want to go back to how it was before.


Yes... I have found ways to do what I need... These issues I bring up aren't stopping me from doing my work, but making it much harder.

I have been and continue to explore the new facets... This is really my point. I have always found work arounds, but when the new changes slow me down even with knowing their existence...

For example... It is indeed infuriating to be forced to learn many new commands to accomplish what was once easy... A "simple" preferences toggle or if must be, manual toggle to enable a comping mode when it is desired becomes the issue for me... Why must I be forced to continually do extra work to accomplish simple tasks?

Would you be comfortable if smart grid was forced on you? I'm sure you would find ways to do what you need, but it's now slowing your workflow...

Please don't misunderstand my posts on this... I'm not arguing between the tool sets, only mentioning that these new tools should not be replacements... I'm guessing this is one that I would believe should be an on-the-fly toggle as well as a default choice... I know you will say they are not replacements, but they are indeed as I must go out of my way to accomplish what once were simple tasks... Of course learning the myriad of new commands helps, but does not replace the stream... I have learned many new commands for old tools since X1 was released... Daunting at times but now 8.5.3 is more confusing as I use X most of the time...

For me, this kind of forced workflow changes does not help most sides of workflow... It may help some, but only at cost to others..

I sense some anger in your words and I hope that's not the case. It's often hard to communicate through the forums and such as we must imagine we understand what each other are referring to and why... I know we are all interested in having the DAW that does what we all need... Reading what those needs are is a constant task for The Bakers and learning if how individual's deal with the software creation is no simple task...

I continue to endeavor to help in the design as much as possible even when those around me don't get my point...

Keni
2013/12/22 12:59:44
Keni
Anderton
Keni
What about when you need to have unequal splits? Say a note hangs over differently on one track than another... Currently it's a pain to fix...

 
What's frustrating to me is you keep thinking things can't be done when they can in fact be done. Use the scissors tool instead of the comping tool - alt-click on the Take and you can split it wherever you want. If you have notes hanging over on one track that aren't on another, you're going to have to do custom splits no matter what.
 
You can also move the split point laterally between two individual adjacent clips and nothing else if you want.
 
Comping wants to force many things to happen to happen to all Lanes even if I only want to change one... Slipping the start pouint for example will move the start of the clip on all Lanes instead of the single one I'm trying to adjust...

 
It doesn't have to. Just select only the clips you want to affect. I have no problem slip editing individual clips. I think you haven't worked enough with the new tools to understand that they are not necessarily forcing you to work in particular ways, they default to working in particular ways but you still have a lot of flexibility in how you can use them.
 
How about the sometimes handy tool of simply clicking on the lane and play auto-starts there... Have you tried to get it to play from before the first note? I continually find myself clicking to select the clip I want to hear then I must stop the auto playback and re-locate the the start of playback...

 
I'm not quite sure I understand the problem but unless you're comping, don't use auto-playback and just place the now time where you want to start playing.
 
Suffice it to say that we all work differently and I'm a bit displeased that Cakewalk has taken it upon themselves to change tools that worked for many... with something that doesn't work for many...

 
It's an area of the program that has changed, and once you learn what those changes are, you will find that on balance the changes allow for far more flexibility than was possible with layers. So far the things you've mentioned can be done, and easily. It's like the person who was disappointed because layers let him play back multiple tracks simultaneously through an individual FX bin and bus and he didn't want to have to give that up with the new Take Lane paradigm. But you can do that with the new Take Lanes.
 
I think the real issue is that it's annoying to have a workflow all figured out, and then have to modify it to accommodate something that's changed. The question then becomes whether the time lost learning the new workflow will be compensated for by offering a smoother user experience that will save time overall and make for more efficient operation in the future. In my Sound on Sound column on comping with X3, I mentioned the initial difficulty I had figuring out the new Take Lane paradigm. I really had a hard time wrapping my head around it at first. But I read all the online documentation and spent a couple days experimenting with different scenarios. After those two days were done, I would NEVER want to go back to how it was before.


Yes... I have found ways to do what I need... These issues I bring up aren't stopping me from doing my work, but making it much harder.

I have been and continue to explore the new facets... This is really my point. I have always found work arounds, but when the new changes slow me down even with knowing their existence...

For example... It is indeed infuriating to be forced to learn many new commands to accomplish what was once easy... A "simple" preferences toggle or if must be, manual toggle to enable a comping mode when it is desired becomes the issue for me... Why must I be forced to continually do extra work to accomplish simple tasks?

Would you be comfortable if smart grid was forced on you? I'm sure you would find ways to do what you need, but it's now slowing your workflow...

Please don't misunderstand my posts on this... I'm not arguing between the tool sets, only mentioning that these new tools should not be replacements... I'm guessing this is one that I would believe should be an on-the-fly toggle as well as a default choice... I know you will say they are not replacements, but they are indeed as I must go out of my way to accomplish what once were simple tasks... Of course learning the myriad of new commands helps, but does not replace the stream... I have learned many new commands for old tools since X1 was released... Daunting at times but now 8.5.3 is more confusing as I use X most of the time...

For me, this kind of forced workflow changes does not help most sides of workflow... It may help some, but only at cost to others..

I sense some anger in your words and I hope that's not the case. It's often hard to communicate through the forums and such as we must imagine we understand what each other are referring to and why... I know we are all interested in having the DAW that does what we all need... Reading what those needs are is a constant task for The Bakers and learning if how individual's deal with the software creation is no simple task...

I continue to endeavor to help in the design as much as possible even when those around me don't get my point...

Keni


BTW... I will work harder at using the changed scenario as it is just as I have done with every iteration of Sonar and ProAudio etc. over the years...

Thanks for always being willing to share your knowledge and insights...

Keni
2013/12/22 13:16:26
Keni
Sorry for the weird multi posts... iPad posting issues... I was still editing and it continued to display my message in edit mode... Please excuse the confusion... This is a hard enuf conversation for me to begin with! ;-)
2013/12/22 13:33:41
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Take lanes are a massive superset of layers. See my post in this thread for more details:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/2954933
 
Layers as they stood in earlier versions are not coming back, that's for sure. It was a limited and incomplete set of tools for dealing with comping. Most of the issues you report are completely possible to do within the take lanes tools. If there are specific things you cannot do they, make specific cases for them and if they are not possible and common enough workflows the take lanes tools can potentially be enhanced in the future.
 
2013/12/22 14:29:48
brian brock
Can't you see that by allowing a simple, stupid workflow without pretensions about what the user is supposed to do, you actually create more power for countless unforeseen uses which by their very nature are not likely to be common individually, but in aggregate are quite common?
 
Would it be possible (or is it already possible) to have an edit mode which allows one simply to grab clips and move them around without having to keep track of which tool is doing what at each time? 
 
The simple laborious method that you pooh-pooh away in your linked post has value in its very simplicity. 
2013/12/22 15:27:58
nargile
Keni
I know I'm crazy, but there are so many issues with Lanes that don't work for me.
 
Id be happy to have layers with all it's bugs and no more development if need be...
 
Please... Maybe if enough people make this issue in the system as well as here in the forums it will be taken more seriously...
 
Honestly I don't believe they will do this, but maybe enough polite requests will get something done to make this important tool work for both camps...
 
I'm so tired of struggling with a system that does not work for me after so many years of a tool that worked well...
 
Keni
 



Keni, you are not crazy, I feel like you, I'd be happy to have layers back, yes with its bugs and all that because the day layers var introduced I liked it and got used to its workflow and since then I have many layers in every track (songs)
 
now, today, layers is gone and take lanes is in and my biggest problem is the forced workflow on take lanes (click on lower part of midi/audio clip to mute the rest take lanes) is very very hard to get used to, and even to this date Im still struggling with I accidentaly click on lower parts of midi/audio clips...  
 
Im really thinkig of stop using take lanes and go back to old method, have no lanes and have only 1 track and no take lanes just to keep away from this destructive default forced "comp" mode or whatever it is called...  (click on lowerpart midi/audio clips)
 
 
I really hope this default forced "comp mode" (Click midi/audio clip to isolate (clip promote)) will have an on/off switch option, I really hope it will be fixed in X3e patch 
(and don't tell me that its switchable by changing  recording mode to sound on sound, thats just a recording mode)
 
besides how lanes work, here is I post I made about how they make tracks cluttered and here is an idea to make them easy to see what is a track and what is take lanes...
 
sonar X3d take lanes visual suggestion
http://forum.cakewalk.com/sonar-X3d-take-lanes-visual-suggestion-m2954545.aspx
 
 
and here is the default comp mode Im having trouble with "(click on lower part of midi/audio clip to mute the rest take lanes)"
sonar x3 producer mouse click on midi/audio clip promote bug??
http://forum.cakewalk.com/sonar-x3-producer-mouse-click-on-midiaudio-clip-promote-bug-m2903303.aspx
 
 
thanks
 
 
2013/12/22 15:39:27
Keni
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Take lanes are a massive superset of layers. See my post in this thread for more details:
http://forum.cakewalk.com/FindPost/2954933
 
Layers as they stood in earlier versions are not coming back, that's for sure. It was a limited and incomplete set of tools for dealing with comping. Most of the issues you report are completely possible to do within the take lanes tools. If there are specific things you cannot do they, make specific cases for them and if they are not possible and common enough workflows the take lanes tools can potentially be enhanced in the future.
 


Thanks Noel...

I'm off to read the thread you just supplied ASAP...

Keni
2013/12/22 16:01:34
mettelus
Egads... I am not sure what to say, but feel that "trying" to understand may be "right out."
 
First, the "smart tool" can be easily over-ridden... right click on the "edit" tool and choose your poison for your task. As the smart tool offers more functionality, that is a good default... I am very confused as to why watching the cursor "being an issue" only applies to "take lanes" and nothing else? I don't see any posts of "Damn it, I just faded out my clip!!! Fix this!!"
 
Second, the "take lanes" visual solution is already in place (in the form of track colors)... your suggestion, does not show any differentiation in the clips on the right. Track colors work on both sides of the fence.
 
Lastly, the CTRL-clicking with the comp tool active does toggle comping. Whether a user chooses this or not is up to them.
 
I am sorry if this seems over the top, but I spent over an hour last night with take lanes just to learn the functionality. I didn't read any references or watch any videos and it all just fell into place and made sense, so I am having an incredibly hard time fathoming the hard set tone of this thread (and the other). I have spent more time trying to help people than it took me to figure "take lanes" out on my own here.
 
 
 
2013/12/22 16:08:02
Keni
BTW Craig...

Using the alt-click will allow you to plait at whatever time you choose, it splits all the lanes at the same point and that's not working for me... I've been using that tool fir a long time.

I'm still searching for more commands, but I don't see any that will allow this... Of course I could revert to switching constantly between the assorted tools other than smart or comping... That ain't gonna be fast...

At the moment I don't recall what I last did regarding this, so I'll go back to searching...

Thanks...

Keni
2013/12/22 16:26:26
Keni
Ok... I've searched all pages in the online help and cannot find a tool that allows me to split only one lane so I can split each lane where I need. Having split only common to all lanes in not something that's gonna work much of the time here...

If there is such a tool/command, would anyone be kind and tell me?

Thanks...
Keni
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