The Maillard Reaction
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 12:12:25
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Madlibs used to be considered a tool for avant garde literary practice.  Now it's not. Go figure.
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DeveryH
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 12:49:28
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bermuda
Alot of folk really don't understand that a loops are not just strung together. They are chopped, cut, modulated filtered, processed, bit crushed etc etc etc and ultimately changed to resemble nothing like their original state, length, sound or groove in many cases. This is a musical talent beyond simply playing a guitar. Now saying that, playing a guitar with originality style and creative expression is like creating an instruments part from a loop origins. Both when done well provide great instrumentation, both when simply played in a loop like fashion suck.
Props to both sets of musicians.
...
I highly disagree. You say it is a "musical talent" to be able to chop, cut, modulate, filter, process, and bit crush loops? That's like saying a person who is good at editing photos yet never took a picture in their life somehow is a "talented photographer." If all you can do is put loops together without adding your own, personally written music into the mix (and lots of it) than I would consider you someone who is good at "editing" and "manipulating" music written by others and not someone who is an actually a composer in the truest sense. One cannot compare people who have the ability (it is a talent) to put together several loops and edit them to those who actually have the talent to CREATE the loops in the first place; this is comparing apples to oranges, not musicians to musicians. I digress...
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mattox82
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 12:58:25
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To be able to come up with a musical loop from pieces is "musical talent" any clown can hack up a loop and make it sound like ****.
Go check out someone like Burial and tell me thats not musical talent.
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daryl1968
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 12:59:33
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Spanky
surely, most 'composers' in the traditional sense of the word are just chopping up what they have heard before and regurgitating - there's only so many notes/chords.
When was the last time you heard something truly original?
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 13:02:26
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Daryl, did you watch any of the videos I posted links too?
It might answer your question.
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John T
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 13:14:55
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Burial is a great example. If you put his LP next to one hacked out by one of those Joe Bonassama type guys who stitch together blues cliches, it turns the argument on its head immediately. One of them is selecting and putting together already existing stuff, and the other is making something genuinely original. And the latter isn't the guy with the guitar.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 13:28:37
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brundlefly
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 13:30:10
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yorolpal
This would be analogous to simply putting the guitar on your lap and strumming the strings while trying different fingering and chord patterns until you stumbled upon something musically relevant. I'm not at all insulted by this or feeling either inferior or superior about it, but I am compelled to testify... This is exactly how almost everything I've ever composed started out, though I do it at the piano.  It has its limitations, certainly, but I would happily put my better compositions up against the hackneyed rhythmic and harmonic musical conventions you hear from some better-educated/trained musicians who take a more formal approach to composing, and have the music theory chops to do it that way. I love taking the formal, technical approach to pursuits that are purely of the mind, but for me, making music is as much a physical activity as a mental activity, and therefore benefits from the serendipitous interplay of simultaneous neural and muscular "experimentation" that you get when composing by improvising on an instrument. My hands will come up with stuff that my brain never would, and vice versa, but both need the other to realize their full creative potential.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 13:30:24
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 13:32:44
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brundlefly
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 13:47:28
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mike_mccue
This one makes me want to dance.
http://youtu.be/kS2wE7BZel0
That's good... I think.
Mike, are you making a point that I'm not getting, or just working toward that 20,000th post? 
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 13:54:45
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I'm just trying to turn people on to Burial. This one reminds of the song it was: http://youtu.be/KoAbMfg9_Uk I started dancing... but then it has that wicked cool break... it took me by surprise and I sat down thinking the song was over. :-) best, mike
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yorolpal
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 13:58:35
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John T
Burial is a great example. If you put his LP next to one hacked out by one of those Joe Bonassama type guys who stitch together blues cliches, it turns the argument on its head immediately. One of them is selecting and putting together already existing stuff, and the other is making something genuinely original. And the latter isn't the guy with the guitar.
I don't think anyone has been arguing which method turns out a "better" product. Have they? That way lies maddness. Who's to say what's "better" or "genuinely original" for that matter. Totally subjective. What's not subjective is the amount of time, effort, study and discipline it takes to do one or the other...if we assume the "just play with it till I get something I like" mode...(which we certainly don't have to, but which will change the debate). You may not like ol Joe B. but he can play his instrument rather well and he didn't get there by simply strumming and picking till something relevant emerged. But, again, no one would sensibly argue who "turns out better art" using ANY method whatsoever. That would be a pointless exercise. What we've been talking about (I thought) was the difference between a fish and a bicycle.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 14:04:51
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From: http://www.thewire.co.uk/articles/347/?pageno=1 Burial: I wanted to make a half euphoric record. That was an older thing that UK underground music used to have. I think that type of euphoria is a British thing, like UK tunes, old rave tunes used to be the masters of that, for a reason, to do with the rave, a half smile, half human endorphins and half something hypnotized by drugs. It was stolen from us and it never really came back. Mates laugh at me because I like whale songs but I love ‘em, I like vocals to be like that, like a night cry, an angel animal. Old hardcore tunes would throw these sounds in, anything to create the rush, descent into another world, like Papua New Guinea by Future Sound of London. love this one feeling, it only happens to you when you’re out in the cold, when your down, this shiver attempts to warm you up, bring you back. For a moment you get this weird, eerie distant feeling like it’s just for you, you get taken out of yourself. Certain tunes just nail that. So I had to do that, but have cut-up vocals and have that slinky bumping feel to it, and not get weighed down in big drums and the big snares. With Garage the drums are taken back, they’re quite soft, it’s more about being slinky. They’re like a fishbone, a spine, an exoskeleton that cradles the sounds. It’s not about the deepest kick or the biggest snare. The drums are more about trying to thread sounds and vocals together, they flicker across the surface of the tune, it circles around you, its not just chopping you up, its not about the sounds being big.
Wire: That’s the part of the reason you’re not happy with using sequencers?
Burial: Also because I don’t know how to use them!
Wire: Yeah, but you could learn! But things often sound sequenced when they are.
Burial: That’s happened to a lot of music. It's detailed in a boring way. I’m not into big intros, because if you’ve got a big intro, the rest of the tune is forever the rest of the tune, and the intro’s forever the intro. You can never get lost in it, you know where you are in most tunes, and that just takes away the only reason a tune should exist to me, I can't relate to grey music. I like tunes that just dive straight in, there’s a jump off and once you’re in it, the awareness that you’re two minutes into a tune, or four minutes into a tune is gone. That’s how I like my tunes. Or something like Robert Hood, just pure presence, shark-like, elements woven together. You can sense them sitting there rolling out the tune.
Wire: Your tunes are like being in a fog, it’s diffuse, but it’s all around you.
Burial: Then a couple of sounds might come up, glow, the rest of them sink down and burn out.
It's a long interview... but fun to read... reminds me of watching Amadeus.
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John T
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 14:25:44
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yorolpal
John T
Burial is a great example. If you put his LP next to one hacked out by one of those Joe Bonassama type guys who stitch together blues cliches, it turns the argument on its head immediately. One of them is selecting and putting together already existing stuff, and the other is making something genuinely original. And the latter isn't the guy with the guitar.
I don't think anyone has been arguing which method turns out a "better" product. Have they? That way lies maddness. Who's to say what's "better" or "genuinely original" for that matter. Totally subjective. What's not subjective is the amount of time, effort, study and discipline it takes to do one or the other...if we assume the "just play with it till I get something I like" mode...(which we certainly don't have to, but which will change the debate). You may not like ol Joe B. but he can play his instrument rather well and he didn't get there by simply strumming and picking till something relevant emerged. But, again, no one would sensibly argue who "turns out better art" using ANY method whatsoever. That would be a pointless exercise. What we've been talking about (I thought) was the difference between a fish and a bicycle.
I think he's ok, Joe, I'd happily sit in a bar or at a festival and listen to him. And I'm not looking to get into areas of what's better or worse. But I don't think even he'd claim he's not just working through the well-worn blues bag of tricks. I actually think you and I are not in disagreement at all on this. Some other people are making arguments, though, which seem - to me, I may be wrong - to be portraying one approach as intrinsically more valid than the other. And the basis for this validity comes down to the "are they just gluing together existing stuff, or are they doing something more sophisticated". To me, that's not a distinction I care about especially, but I was trying to make the point that you can find examples from either side of the "Proper" musicians / sequencer based musicians divide to support the argument either way.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 14:41:33
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I'll bet if Eric Clapton walked out on stage and called out "Ab" Joe knows exactly what that means. I'm imagining what would happen if Eric pulled that trick on the other guy...
post edited by mike_mccue - 2011/07/26 14:43:27
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yorolpal
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 14:43:22
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Yup, I'd never argue about which is more "valid". That's not a distinction I care to make either, ol pal. All I was saying is we need better, more accurate, non-perjorative and acceptable labels to clearly define what it is that each of us actually do (or are).
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 14:44:50
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Is cliche a pejorative?
Just asking.
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John T
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 14:45:15
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mike_mccue
I'll bet if Eric Clapton walked out on stage and called out "Ab" Joe knows exactly what that means.
I'm imagining what would happen if Eric pulled that trick on the other guy...
So what? How extensive do you reckon Clapton's knowledge of synth programming and sound design is?
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John T
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 14:46:44
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Dear God, Eric Clapton. One of the dullest, most uncreative musicians to ever stand on a stage. Plainly, we are not going to find a lot to agree on here.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 14:47:40
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I thought you were the guy trying to avoid comparison?
If you are curious I suggest you ask him the next time you get a chance.
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Jonbouy
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 14:48:24
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mike_mccue
This one's a hoot... especially if you hold the author in high regard:
http://courses.unt.edu/jklein/files/babbitt.pdf
You need a random number generator to choose the page sequence to read it in then it makes total sense. Some would say too much sense.
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John T
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 14:49:04
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Mike, this is really, really poor argumentation. You raised a comparison, presumably it's open for discussion.
I wish you wouldn't do this when the grown ups are talking.
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daryl1968
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 14:50:27
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If Sir Eric called out A flat to Burial, he would probably call out the AAA. Wah wah wah.
John T - thank god someone said that out loud - I was given tickets to see the 'god' Clapton once - zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.
I've seen more charisma in a bowl of Rice Krispies
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John T
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 14:51:58
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He's dreadful. Emperor's New Clothes story never had a better walking example.
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daryl1968
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 14:54:44
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Emperor's New Clothes
+10
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Jonbouy
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 14:56:08
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I have a feeling if this thread indicates a market share of who Cakewalk need to keep happy with X1C then they clearly have a wide base to cover.
Tough crowd.
Seems like I'm going for a kind of 'Half-Buried Eric Clapton' type creative approach and feel.
Will X1c cope with that I wonder.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 14:56:46
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I looked up cliche' "A cliché or cliche (pronounced UK: /ˈkliːʃeɪ/, US: /klɪˈʃeɪ/) is an expression, idea, or element of an artistic work which has been overused to the point of losing its original meaning or effect, rendering it a stereotype, especially when at some earlier time it was considered meaningful or novel. In phraseology, the term has taken on a more technical meaning, referring to any expression imposed by conventionalized linguistic usage. The term is frequently used in modern culture for an action or idea which is expected or predictable, based on a prior event. Typically a pejorative, "clichés" are not always false or inaccurate;[1] a cliché may or may not be true.[2] Some are stereotypes, but some are simply truisms and facts.[3] Clichés are often for comic effect, typically in fiction. Most phrases now considered clichéd were originally regarded as striking, but lost their force through overuse.[4] In this connection, David Mason and John Frederick Nims cite a particularly harsh judgement by Salvador Dalí: "The first man to compare the cheeks of a young woman to a rose was obviously a poet; the first to repeat it was possibly an idiot."[5] A cliché is often a vivid depiction of an abstraction that relies upon analogy or exaggeration for effect, often drawn from everyday experience. Used sparingly, they may succeed. However, cliché in writing or speech is generally considered a mark of inexperience or unoriginality." It occurs to me that some one might mistake an art form like the Blues, an art form that has been sold in the guise of billions of records and countless live performance entries might be mistaken for a cliche. If one wishes to stand at the sideline and observe... one can experience a self fullfilling realization of a cliche. Yep... if you want it to be... it's a cliche'. Or If one chooses to walk out onto the dance floor or field and dance with one's baby to a set of blues... well then the pertinence and meaningfulness of the medium is confirmed and there fore, by definition, you will not be experiencing a cliche'. You'll be living life. It's a choice.
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The Maillard Reaction
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 14:57:55
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Jonbouy
mike_mccue
This one's a hoot... especially if you hold the author in high regard:
http://courses.unt.edu/jklein/files/babbitt.pdf
You need a random number generator to choose the page sequence to read it in then it makes total sense.
Some would say too much sense.
You have the gift!
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Jonbouy
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Re:"We will have more information about SONAR X1c in late July"
2011/07/26 15:04:26
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All I want from X1c is the long awaited voice recognition midi input interface.
Just so I can go Do, Re, Mi, So, Fa, La, Ti....... at various durations and have all my notes line up on the staff.
Is that too much to ask?
"We can't do anything to change the world until capitalism crumbles. In the meantime we should all go shopping to console ourselves" - Banksy
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