bitflipper

In the end VST 2.4 will just die out, and that day has come and it's soon.

VST 2.4 is not going to die out. Period. DAWs already support it. Do you think they're going to rip out the VST 2.4 code because it's no longer fashionable?



I will concede this one point to the VST3 evangelists: if all the plugin vendors decided to abandon VST 2.4 and sell only VST 3 products, then yes we'd be in trouble.
 
 
 
But the same thing could be said about AAX, AU or RTAS. Are you losing sleep because SONAR doesn't support Audio Units and never will? Do you know there are AU-only plugins out there that you can't have?

Plugins are a small market. Software vendors must broaden that market as much as possible by offering multiple versions - 32 and 64-bit versions, VST, AU and RTAS versions, light/free/demo and full-featured versions, plugin and standalone versions. There are exactly two vendors in the world that might be so arrogant as to not do so: Steinberg and Waves. 

Let's not forget the salient point in all this, which is that VST X is an interface specification, nothing more. It sets the rules by which two pieces of software exchange data. That's all. It does not dictate what a plugin can or cannot do internally any more than TCP/IP dictates what you and I can type here. A well-designed interface is inherently extensible, meaning it's capable of being adapted to things the original designers didn't think of. VST 2.4 is extensible. There is no intrinsic reason it should ever become obsolete.

So no, VST 2.4 is not going to "die out". Even if it did, there is no basis to assume that VST3 would be its successor (other than "3" is a higher number than "2.4"). Rest easy, Freddie. You have nothing to worry about.

Reeeeeeaaaaaally? 
   
 
Let’s see now who on the market that is affected of this new change to VST 3.5 only happen in 2013.
 
 
Logic Pro = AU plugins, not affected of the change.  *New sell of plugins!!!
 
 
DP = AU plugins, not affected of the change.  *New sell of plugins!!!
 
 
Pro Tools = new AAX-format, not affected of the change.  *New sell of plugins!!!
 
 
Cubase = Already VST3 support and AU plugins, not affected of the change.  *New sell of plugins!!!
 
 
Nuendo = Already VST3 support and AU plugins, not affected of the change.  *New sell of plugins!!!
 
 
Studio One = Already VST3 support, not affected of the change.  *New sell of plugins!!!
 
 
FL Studio = Already VST3 support, not affected of the change.  *New sell of plugins!!!
 
 
Vienna Ensemble Pro 5 = Already VST3 support and AU plugins, not affected of the change. *New sell of plugins!!!

 
 
n-Track Studio = Already VST3 support, not affected of the change.  *New sell of plugins!!!
 
 
Audition = Already VST3 support, not affected of the change.  *New sell of plugins!!!
 
 
Bitwig Studio = Already VST3 support, not affected of the change.  *New sell of plugins!!!
 
 
Audio Finder = Already VST3 support, not affected of the change.  *New sell of plugins!!!
 
 
RX = Already VST3 support, not affected of the change.  *New sell of plugins!!!
 
 
Wavelab = Already VST3 support, not affected of the change.  *New sell of plugins!!!
 
 
Sequel = Already VST3 support, not affected of the change.  *New sell of plugins!!!
 
 
SAVIHost = Already VST3 support, not affected of the change.  *New sell of plugins!!!
 
 
Novation Automap = Already VST3 support, not affected of the change.  *New sell of plugins!!!
 
 
Reaper 4 = (Today affected) hardly in 2013. New VST 3 update are on its way. *New sell of plugins!!!

 
 
 
 
 
SONAR X2 = Affected!  *No new Sell!
 
Samplitude = Affected! They recently got x64bit so not going very fast over there…   * No new Sell!
 
 
 
Do you honestly believe that they going to give dam about perhaps 3-5% or whole market don’t have VST3 support?
Think about it!

SToons

firefly9000


The benefits of 2.4 vs 3 may be debatable... so may the fact that Steinberg threw 3 out there to gain something.

But IF Waves and other companies go the 3 route, then this is a mute debate. I get a chuckle out of people that keep repeating proudly on this thread their solution: THEY are doing just fine without these plugs so you should too... (why didn't I think of that - limiting my creativity, what a fantastic workaround) 

Followed by:

chuckebaby


what are we really missing with vst 3 ?
a handful of waves plug ins ?
its really not a big deal as far as im concerned.
i can live without it.

*sigh*

+1
 
The discussion of technical merits is irrelevant when something you purchase simply will not work in Sonar... and I simply cannot fathom the members who are campaigning against VST3 implementation on the basis that they do not need it, nor you should need it, or that said effects of such feature can be achieved in other ways... (in my case being advised i can spend $350 on a third party editor to compensate for the lack of VST3 support). This overall attitude is a sad reflection on the forum and i am very glad it does not translate into discussion of all feature requests..
 
can you imagine this attitude for example in say..pick staff view?.. hey!.. in this day and age who on earth would need it.. after all, i dont... never mind improving it, pfft..just take it out!!!..  after all, you can spend hundreds of dollars and do it another way of course..whats the problem?.... now..see how rediculous I sound?.. of course staff view should be improved as it is clear that there are members who need it....
 

Hi folks,
While I'm certainly not wading into this fight, I do keep reading in this thread that UAD and Waves will be VST3 only soon. I've Googled around (is "Googled" a word? If so, is it a verb? Nevermind...) and can't seem to find any source or confirmation for that. Can anyone post a link to the source of those assertions?

Dean

 

......
 
I must say SONAR is darn fine program and SONAR X2 seem even better then X1. I'm glad they took their time addressing all kinds of long going problems with SONAR. 
 
I know and master many DAWs still I don't want to use anything else and most of that is because of the Pro Channel, Skylight GUI Icons and other nice features many other DAWs don't have. It's just sad to see it limp in some aspects. Anyway I will be on the X2 boat anyway.
 
I'm aware of some issues that can occur in the future but I hope Cakewalk address them as soon as possible..
I'm confident they do! They are not stupid at least not after this long thread!

Wait...so is it correct to say that there is no evidence at all that new versions of Waves and UAD plugins will be VST3 only?

Yes, there is no such statements for now...

I thought the original premise of this thread was that VST3 will not be in X2, not that it will *never* be implemented.  And for X2, if VST3 is not yet *the* standard but instead it's still VST2.4, then SONAR X2 will support the current standard.    But as others mentioned, I do hope that SONAR will not be behind the ball if and when VST3 becomes the de facto standard for most plugin companies.    
 

I've been waiting for Antares to go 64 bit with EVO and AT7 'their flagships'. Still no 64 for those, but their newly released Auto-tune live is ONLY VST3 (64 bit) which leads me to believe that when my longtime wait for 64 bit from Antares, it will most likely be VST3 ONLY as well. Digital Performer 8 for PC will have VST support, I'm wondering if IT will support VST3. Noel says they have a close relationship with 3rd party plug-in vendors and boasts all the VST 2.4 abilities, all the while, the LAST X1 update 'D' left X1 UNABLE to Clipbounce/Fastbounce Timecode/tempo based plugins... eg. Antares, Melodyne, waves , gtr rig, TEMPO sync plugs only get the First tempo in the tempo list when fastbouncing... Really crippled the workflow. X1 was left half broken in terms of rendering plugins. Not to mention little MAJOR bugs of Midi Fx (deleting clips with Midi fx = FATAL crash, just dragging Midi Fx (not drag copy) = fatal crash. Couldn't get a confirm on whether this is fixed in X2 or not. Multi lane Nudge bug... Sorry to ramble/repeat, I'm a passionate professional with concerns over the direction of my host DAW. Been Married to Sonar for over 10 years now and hate to split up. The forum is such a nice family and support group and is a major reason Cake has held on to the share that it has held on to. Without Company support the Bakers have no support, without Baker support, customer support has no support to offer... my favorite was 'For now, use 8.5.3 to do all of your Tuning/Timing adjustments', and 'stay tuned, an update is in the works'.... followed by 6 MOS of SILENCE, no Updates! Then it's, 'Buy X2 now'. And now to see the Lack of support of ALL of the features by my high dollar plugins continue on into X2 is disheartening. Quantizing audio didn't even work in X1 until the 'C' patch. I yeild my time to a friendly speaker. Nevermind, I think I used it up already. :)

For now you dont need VST3 support as all major companies making both VST2/VST3. So calm down.

I'll be the judge of what I need and don't need. Antares who is now starting to make 64 bit plugs are ONLY making VST3 of their newest plugs. The VST2 versions of the same plugins DON'T utilize ALL of the features provided by the plugin manufacturers. (Waves- Vocal Rider just to name 1) Maybe you should read some of the thread first. If you don't need it, great for you and your complacency. You probably would say I don't need 1,000,000 string samples either but I'm sending Vienna my $825 for their early bird special on Dimension Strings. Over 1,000,000 samples for the full section due out next year. I use VEP5/MIR and would benifit greatly with the VST3 version. (audio inputs without using Event inputs workaround, more than 16 midi channels per instance. MIR24 the small version is 24 channels. I'm trying to see if a crossgrade is in order or if Cakewalk can come through after all. In planning, I'd just like to get a timeframe.

I'd like VST3 support if only to do away with that awful plug-in manager. 
 
I don't even think it is for the vendor of a host to quibble the technical merits of VST2 over 3 it's more of a thing for the third party plug-in developers to worry about. 
 
If it's good business for THEM they will eventually stop developing for 2.4 in preference for the newer VST 3 anyway.  So however much the host vendor applauds the functionality of the older technology it won't be of much use when everyone has migrated to a new host that does support VST3.
 
I gather it's on the horizon though however distant that maybe.
 
I wonder if they've even got Rewire working properly in X2 yet?  That would be a breakthrough on it's own after several long years.
 
I still like Sonar and am planning to upgrade this cycle, but my reliance on it seems to diminish further as other vendors steal the march on these things.  I've been using take lanes and Rewire via other solutions for a couple of years now as there is still no one DAW that covers all the bases for me, but when I consider that Sonar pretty much was the major part of my music production flow compared to the secondary functions it has for me now I can't help wondering how well the method for prioritizing for engineering resources mentioned earlier is working.
 
I can understand how the upsell of the included semi-versions of Breverb, TH2 and R-Mix might generate some income from the faithful but I wonder how much the omission of technology such as VST 3 will put off new users coming into the fold or fail to tempt back some of those that have jumped ship in the last couple of years. 
 
However much those that don't like the idea, Sonar is certainly in a minority as far as DAWs go in lacking VST 3 support.  Not that it really matters to most.
 
Yet!

This is honestly a long thread. I can't read the whole thing, but I will say this: If I spend money on a plug-in and the DAW supports it (and uh...doesn't barf), great! However, I believe the DAW makers to be the monarchy that will have their way, whatever way that is. Believe me, and I say this with absolute sincerity that I have no love for any of them. So, the plug-in makers will simply have to be the flexible ones to get around the snubs. 

What functionality are you missing from Fabfilter?

musichoo

Blogman


New VST3 features Improved performance Managing large plug-in sets and multiple virtual instruments on typical studio computer systems can often be difficult because of CPU performance limits. VST3 helps to improve overall performance by applying processing to plug-ins only when audio signals are present on their respective inputs. Instead of always processing input signals, VST3 plug-ins can apply their processing economically and only when it is needed. Multiple dynamic I/Os VST3 plug-ins are no longer limited to a fixed number of inputs and outputs. Their I/O configuration can dynamically adapt to the channel configuration they’re inserted in, meaning that any VST3 plug-in can be surround-capable with true multi-channel processing. For example, all the new VST3 plug-ins in Nuendo 4 can work in stereo-mode when inserted into a stereo channel, but switch to 6 channels when inserted into a 5.1 channel. Each audio channel is processed independently. Interaction between channels depends on the type and design of the plug-in. In addition to their flexible audio bussing capabilities, VST3 plug-ins may also offer a dedicated event bus. Typically, this is a MIDI input for control/modulation but these busses are no longer restricted to MIDI standard only. Future plug-ins may replace the common MIDI interface with alternative methods of control. Activating/deactivating busses A typical issue with current virtual instruments is their audio output bussing system and how they’re connected to the mixer after loading. Especially virtual samplers with multiple outputs often occupy more mixer channels than need. The VST3 interface offers the possibility to deactivate unused busses after loading and even reactivate those when needed. This cleans up the mixer and further helps to reduce CPU load. Resizable edit windows VST3 introduces a new approach to plug-in GUIs though window resizing, allowing for extremely flexible use of valuable screen space. Sample-accurate automation VST3 also features vastly improved parameter automation with sample accuracy and support for ‘ramped’ automation data, allowing completely accurate and rapid parameter automation changes. Logical parameter organization The plug-in parameters are displayed in a tree structure. Parameters are grouped into sections which represent the structure of the plug-in. Parameters like “Cutoff” and “Resonance” could be grouped into a section called “Filter”. This makes searching for a certain parameters easier, such as on an automation track. This also allows assigning a group of parameters to a specific MIDI Channel input and audio output bus. Optional VST3/SKI combination As a direct result of the modular interface design of VST3, the Steinberg Kernel Interface (SKI) can be combined with VST3 plug-ins. SKI is an additional SDK that allows extremely close integration of a plug-in with a Steinberg host application, and allows functions to be carried out almost from within the application. This extends to the ability to create tracks, copy, cut, paste or process events in the Steinberg host application. SKI is provided to selected industry partners upon request. VSTXML for remote controllers Remote controllers for audio and MIDI software applications have become increasingly popular. With VSTXML, VST3 offers far more flexible control of VST plug-ins by remote controllers. Using the knobs and faders on the control surface, parameters can be recorded, renamed and edited in many ways. Parameters that cannot be edited can be routed for display purposes to the control surface, for example to show Gain Reduction on compressor. UTF16 for localized parameter naming In VST3, all strings that can be displayed to the user are in Unicode (UTF16) format. Usage of this universal character base allows the host application to display characters in localized languages. No MIDI restriction for parameter value transfers VST3 has a dedicated interface for event handling that carries a much wider range of functionality than standard MIDI events would be able to provide. This opens up a big range of opportunities for musical use cases with very high potential for innovative product design. For example with VST3 some controller events (for example, pitch) can be referred to a note event (using a note unique ID). This offers the possibility to e.g. modulate only a single note which itself is part of a chord. Audio inputs for VST instruments The VST3 interface expands VST instruments by adding the ability to create audio input busses. As a result, audio data can be routed to an VST3 instrument. A synthesizer which has a built-in e.g. vocoder effect is able to process audio data coming in from other sources as well. Multiple MIDI inputs/outputs Unlike with VST 2.x,, a VST3 plug-in can have more than only one MIDI input or one MIDI output at the same time. 64-bit processing VST3 plug-ins are generally able to process audio data in 64-bit.

 
Hi Blogman,
Thanks for the post but can you post that message again with paragaph? I m having trouble reading past your second line.
 
Thanks again
 
Sincerely
Choo Shi-Hwei, Malaysia

I'm guessing Blogman got it from http://www.steinberg.net/en/company/technologies/vst3.html