Retracted
Signing off this thread

ORIGINAL: creynolds

ORIGINAL: Jonbouy

...to dismiss a professional company's release as being a 'Shambles' IMO is quite wrong when clearly the OP has not got the conviction of his own purchasing decision borne out by asking others to make up his mind whether or not he should be asking for a refund, unless of course the incorporated title question is a rhetorical one.

As I've already alluded too the only 'shambles' I can see here is somebody that replaces a mission critical app. without reference to even that most basic of purchasing requirements, the time honoured statement of CAVEAT EMPTOR or buyer beware.

Nobody is mugging anyone else here although it seems plain that a few like to mug themselves.

Hi Jonbouy



Under UK law if a product is not fit for the purpose for which it is sold then you are entitled to a refund or replacement.
To quote from that act:
Wherever goods are bought they must "conform to contract". This means they must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality (i.e. not inherently faulty at the time of sale).

and also here:

If goods do not conform to contract at the time of sale, purchasers can request their money back "within a reasonable time". (This is not defined and will depend on circumstances)

I am not saying for a second that we should try and enforce any type of refund. Also, I am not a fool as you imply. Sonar 7.02 has not and will not be replaced on my system until 8 works as well as 7 or better. I beg to differ on the mugging issue though. Someone is definitley being mugged. Noli nothis permittere te terere.

Sale of Goods Act and Fitness for purpose.

Although in reality this would likely not apply to Software. All software has bugs...Some users can prove that that the product does what it is intended to do. (It may not be as easy or done in a manner that was anticipated eg..use of workarounds).

A faulty iron is a a defect item from a product group that otherwise are working. A faulty software.... ??? erm we all have the same code. where we differ is in out setups and our application of things.

Sonar 8 is still just born. Some issues were resolved in the first patch ....more will be resolved in the next patch. there is way too much at stake for Cakewalk to drop the ball en route to the goal line.


I think the world wishes that software weren't different... I personally get cheesed off with the amount of software patches and fixes I have to download and apply to the multitude of software licences owned.

ORIGINAL: creynolds

Agreed.
Obviously this has been a pointless and misguided posting. I unreservedly apologise to all contributors and to Cakewalk. May I state for the record, that I now consider Sonar 8 to be a flawless release which contains no appreciable issues or bugs.
Sorry to have wasted your time. Signing off this thread

In this now retracted and hardly sincere looking post and ( edit: now including a trite title change) it seems like you are baling out because few blindly agreed with you, which ironically is what you are arrogantly accusing most folk here of doing with Cakewalk on the Sonar 8 issue. In fact if you read back through the thread there are a number of suggestions that have been put forward in how customer and developer could work together to improve future releases not least of which involves you contacting support with your issues rather than leading with the chin with an inflammatory title on your post.

Noli nothis permittere te terere. I agree and I won't let 'em get me down but I do try and work out who the 'Ba***' (edit: Bad Guys) are first.

creynolds,

I agree with you 100%. Sonar 7 PE still has bugs from Sonar 4 PE. I honestly think that if we have a documented bug that we should get a special discount if we choose to upgrade b/c we should not have to pay for upgrades when we still NEED updates.

"Sonar 7 PE still has bugs from Sonar 4 PE. I honestly think that if we have a documented bug that we should get a special discount if we choose to upgrade b/c we should not have to pay for upgrades when we still NEED updates."

I agree with your assessment of v7... there are still a bunch of version 4 bugs in it.

It appears that we do get a discount for beta testing new versions.

Apparently taking a release at face value is a fool's errand... and common wisdom is that we should wait for the final patch before buying IF we EXPECT to be satisfied with the product.

So with that in mind I'm begining to think the wise man's upgrade costs $229- and a year of waiting while the beta tester price is $179-.

That's 50 bucks off just for taking the bath.


best regards,
mike

ORIGINAL: gtgarner

ORIGINAL: GotMetalBoy

creynolds,

I agree with you 100%. Sonar 7 PE still has bugs from Sonar 4 PE. I honestly think that if we have a documented bug that we should get a special discount if we choose to upgrade b/c we should not have to pay for upgrades when we still NEED updates.

You are willing to upgrade to something that you know hasn't been wroking for you in the past?

You're logic, or lack there of is tiresome. You make blanket statements like "Now people swear by Sonar 7.0.2." and "As far as I am concerned Sonar 8 is much more stable than 7 and everything that I was doing in 7....I can do in 8." in some perverse effort to deflect the fact that each and every release is supposed to work as advertised.

In all of my posting I have yet to ASK for a feature... in every instance I have complained it has been because an ADVERTISED feature does not work as advertised.

Now your debate technique is too attempt to undermine a customer for TRUSTING a company (that you seemingly have implicit faith in) to do the right thing. You endorse the product and it's suitability in your workflow... and then imply that someone else is foolish to have trusted the company and statements of satisfaction such as yours?

That's just plain twisted.

best regards,
mike

ORIGINAL: mike_mccue

ORIGINAL: gtgarner

ORIGINAL: GotMetalBoy

creynolds,

I agree with you 100%. Sonar 7 PE still has bugs from Sonar 4 PE. I honestly think that if we have a documented bug that we should get a special discount if we choose to upgrade b/c we should not have to pay for upgrades when we still NEED updates.

You are willing to upgrade to something that you know hasn't been wroking for you in the past?

You're logic, or lack there of is tiresome. You make blanket statements like "Now people swear by Sonar 7.0.2." and "As far as I am concerned Sonar 8 is much more stable than 7 and everything that I was doing in 7....I can do in 8." in some perverse effort to deflect the fact that each and every release is supposed to work as advertised.

In all of my posting I have yet to ASK for a feature... in every instance I have complained it has been because an ADVERTISED feature does not work as advertised.

Now your debate technique is too attempt to undermine a customer for TRUSTING a company (that you seemingly have implicit faith in) to do the right thing. You endorse the product and it's suitability in your workflow... and then imply that someone else is foolish to have trusted the company and statements of satisfaction such as yours?

That's just plain twisted.

best regards,
mike

Twisted people love Sonar 8 as well then.

I'm not expecting everything to work as it does not.....I just think that asking for ones money back is just as twisted.

Obviously you haven't read any of my other posts on other threads. I don't have implicit faith in Cakewalk as I experienced bugs as well.....and gues what.....they weren't all Cakewalks bugs.....especially in BFD2 using SONAR 8. It was fixed in 8.0.1.

I don't have a debate technique. I just say what I feel. Even creynolds says that his 7.0.2 works for him (even with its bugs), I say ......stick with it then - don't upgrade.

The twisted people vote for Cakewalk to give his money back....if thats what he wants. Now everyone is happy.

cr: For what it's worth, I think you have every right to complain and voice your opinion no matter what that opinion may be. That said, I wouldn't have worded a few things the way you did. BUT, I HAVE in the past because frustration can get the best of us and sometimes venting about it can make us feel a bit better. I've went off on a few tangents on here when I've been frustrated. I've bashed the company, the product, some of the posters for their attitudes. It all stems from our frustrations man, seriously. At the end of the day, we need something that works for us and doesn't disrupt our work-flow. We don't care about all the time that was invested into this or what may have went on behind the scenes with a better audio engine, new plugs, new ways of handling things...we just need the program to work for us without a hitch. And, when these bugs or roadblocks come into our lives in an important situation, all this stuff really builds up and can make you boil.

I've been there man, seriously I have. I've even had a chance to talk with Noel in private many times about some of my issues. One thing he told me that I sometimes forgot was "we are people too" followed by "we are just as upset or more upset than you guys are when bugs are found". I really believe that to be true. I can't fathom the amount of stress those guys must be under to make this stuff work on so many systems. Of course I'm not taking sides either way....if something doesn't work for you, it simply doesn't work and it seems like you've wasted your money. I read your post the way you intended it to be and I sensed not only loyalty, but loads of frustration which is perfectly acceptable. But like I said, I might not have used the words you used and the reason for that is I have found in the past that the more tactful I can be, the more people (as well as the Cake TS) will be more than willing to help.

You know as well as I do that most of the problems we encounter on here have to do with individual systems and of course how savvy the user is. However, there ARE serious issues for some people on some systems that ARE related to the software itself. These need to be addressed, error reports need to be filled out, TS can be called...you know the drill. Also, I sincerely believe that each problem differs due to how that individual uses Sonar. For example, the biggest issue I have read about on these boards is pops/clicks/motorboating. If I got a penny for everytime I read a post that had that in it, I'd be in Donald Trumps league. LOL!!

That in mind, I have NEVER had an issue with motor-boating on ANY version of Sonar. In my case, that reason may be because I do not use low latency settings and I do not use direct input monitoring because I use an external mixing board to do all that in real time. I have experimented with direct input monitoring and have had good results, but motor-boating and audio drop-outs entered my world in certain situations....so this is proof that depending on your individual use, Sonar may give you some issues.

I've been pretty lucky with Sonar but I also can relate to a lot of the things you mentioned in this thread that have since been retracted. I felt S8 was a hot-rodded version of 7 and I think I slightly offended Noel in saying that originally. But for my particular use, there is nothing other than a few additional options in S8 that tells me I'm using S8. Dim Pro, enabling/disabling arm while audio is playing....stuff like that is really all I notice for my particular needs. CAL files stopped working in 8, I had issues recording Roland V Drums....crossfades were not keeping to where I set them....these same issues exist in S7 for me minus CAL file usage. They have been fixed in the S8.1 patch, but still this gives merit in my opinion that some things were damaged that worked as new things were implemented. S5 is still my weapon of choice as I have NEVER had an issue with it other than I totally hate how the mouse wheel can't be disabled for editing perameters. I still hate that to this day with the newer versions.

In my humble opinion, and I mean no offense to Cake or TS, but for MY particular use of this product, I've really not felt I've needed to buy an update since S5. S6 was worth an upgrade to me as it gave me a few new cool things to mess with. S7 and S8 should have been on the house as I really don't see them to be "new" at all. Maybe for the creators and some users....but for me and how "I" use Sonar, there are only a few things I really need. I'll list them just to further prove my personal point.

Select all audio outputs: Awesome feature that stopped me from having to change outputs one at a time. This is a necessity for me.

Dim Pro: The light version was cool, but the one with S8 is VERY cool.

Arm audio tracks while playback is running: I've always wanted this....it's perfect and I'm glad it was implemented.

V Vocal: I love it and think it's one of the best vocal plugs out there.

Keep all ports open: I hated when Sonar would stop or glitch when you would create a track or open an out-port or in port. This makes it smoother for me.

Drum map manager: I dig it and use it for things I don't have instrument definitions for. The only thing I don't like about it is when you preview an instrument too fast...it opens up the manager. This is a hinderance. Sometimes I like to audition a hit several times but it can't be done in this mode. But I still use it from time to time and it's helpful as the format is different than instrument definition view.

Would you believe this is all I can list? If you went back through all the versions on which these options were implemented, it's easy to see how a guy like me can feel I have definitely spent too much money for very limited new bells and whistles. I could live without all of those options above, so this makes my feelings a bit more credible if you're me. It really depends on how an individual uses this stuff I feel. Do I feel ripped off? Hmmm....well, yes and no. I wouldn't really say "ripped off" but I do feel some of the new releases could have just been updates IF they just added a few new features and fixed ongoing issues. I made up my mind after S7 that I wasn't going to upgrade to S8....but, all the hush hush stuff made me curious as to what we'd be in for. I thought something truly groundbreaking may have been in the works...but other than the few options I have listed and a new color scheme I made for S8, that's the only way I know I'm using S8. For others, they will give you a different side of the story...it's all in how we use the program. But I do feel your pain regardless on how some may have responded to you. I think it may have been better to just use your words a bit more carefully, but then again, like I said, I HAVE been where you are.

I can also say that given a chance, the Baker TS has been extremely fantastic with me past and present. If you can find it in yourself to fill out an in depth error report, give them a chance to assist you man. I'm serious. I know you're frustrated and I also know you may be thinking like I used to think "why should I do their work for them....I don't have the time and I don't have the desire!" I've felt that way for a long time. But one day, I decided to actually try and make a difference with an error I had. They not only gave me a great TS guy to work on my issue personally, the guy kept in contact with me on a daily basis to help me with this problem. I'm sure this is not always the case in every error report, but I cannot fault a company who has went out of their way to help me and has contacted me in private to solve my issues. I can't say a bad thing about them, seriously. Maybe Roland is the cuprit in how they run things, but I sincerely feel the TS guys that are lurking around here really care about how we are feeling and want to solve our issues. They just have to know these issues exist and though you may not want to take part in the debugging process, the more people that do, the faster we may all have a program that is close to bug free. Just try it before you completely abandon ship bro, seriously.

I went on the Stein forums for help with WaveLab last week. I can't tell you how bad it was. There were hundreds of questions that went unanswered. At least here, if a Baker doesn't help you personally, you have about 300 guys lurking that might be able to if you give your system stats and info. You'll see if you browse the Stein forum....we have quite a gift here. We just sometimes have to embrace it and do a bit extra. This is easier said than done when you are frustrated and have issues that are preventing you from using the software. Trust me, I know exactly how you feel. Anyway, I've rambled enough here but I just wanted to tell you I understand what you are feeling and I hope you can give this one more shot and see if your issues can be solved. If not, best of luck with whatever DAW you choose to use. :)

I cant stand it when people edit/erase/retract all there comments in a thread. You obviously meant what you said. Thanx for wasting everyones time.

*ATTENTION* Sonar cheer practice has been moved from Sonitus Hall, to Z3TA House. Our goal today is to get LOUD, so don't forget to bring Boost 11.

The difference between an amateur and a professional is that the professional is willing to take an annual cut in pay.

Retracted.....

ORIGINAL: tcaylor

Retracted.....

Protracted , protractor, prorate procreate propensive , proponent, prolific, and that brings us back to do re mi fa.....

ORIGINAL: Lay In Wait

ORIGINAL: tcaylor

Retracted.....

ORIGINAL: dbmusic

Personally cyrenolds, should you mosey around this neck of the neighborhood again, I'm disappointed with your retractions. Though I don't agree with everything you said, I thought you expressed your displeasure thoughtfully and to the point. When you go anti-Sonar around here you can expect some pretty heavy-handed responses. But really, who cares? Some of the exchanges that go on here really get under my skin, but I would still defend anyone's right to express them. Speak your mind, let others respond, then move on. But to retract everything you say is like taking all your toys and going home because the kids on the block don't play nice. It's good to go against the grain once in awhile...keeps the world an interesting place.

Awright now there we go!! Bring it on evengelistas!!!! Sonar 8 was......... disapointing!!
I'm back in the fray

Thanks