thegeek


FWIW

to Mike

When you have slip edited a midi clip so that the last note "extends" right into the hidden data-area upon bouncing the clip it forces this last note to appear at its whole initial duration. This causes the bounced clip to be longer.
The workaround to your video problems is.......
Before applying bouncing (in order to be sure the hidden data are deleted and carry on making it a groove clip), chekc the last note duarion.....extend your clips slip edited left border - does the last note extend to there too? Then manually make it shorter (in PRV view).
Then apply bounce - it will now stay at the desired length
-then apply "groove clip" hotkey

;)

I have not tried Mike's exact steps but I wonder if, when I edit MIDI for a groove clip, that I don't do exactly as you've described above, geek, with success. And when I fail it's because I've taken a wrong turn. I also almost never bounce a single clip that I want to turn into a groove clip. I'll remember your 'bouce' advice - thank you.

Well, I just tried making some midi groove clips with data that extended beyond and I didn't really have any problems doing it.
Granted, I'm not familiar with the procedure enough to know if it's changed from prior versions or if its different somehow, but it did work.

I also think Mike got a bit confused in his vid when he thought a kick note magically appeared.
I can't be sure cause the vid is a bit blurry, but if the note is not visible in the midi clip it won't be in the PRV, and it wasn't.
Then when he extended the clip it appeared in the PRV.
Anyway, hope that helps someone.

RLD


Well, I just tried making some midi groove clips with data that extended beyond and I didn't really have any problems doing it.
Granted, I'm not familiar with the procedure enough to know if it's changed from prior versions or if its different somehow, but it did work.

I also think Mike got a bit confused in his vid when he thought a kick note magically appeared.
I can't be sure cause the vid is a bit blurry, but if the note is not visible in the midi clip it won't be in the PRV, and it wasn't.
Then when he extended the clip it appeared in the PRV.
Anyway, hope that helps someone.

Yes, I was a bit confused at that point... but don't focus on that... as you can see it was long journey to get there and I was free styling a 15 minute presentation.

It shouldn't have been there because the clip was slip edited to 11:01. But this is of course also after I have repeatedly Applied Trimming as Well as Bounce to Clip... Repeatedly... in an attempt to annihilate everything outside the boundary of the clip seen in track view.

Why not watch the video a bit longer after the point where you are speaking of and you'll see at time code 12:20 that I slip the clip edge back to 11:01 and the reopen the Piano roll view and the kick drum event IS there... that's when I actually delete it... when it isn't supposed to be there because as you say the PRV should not show something that is slip edited in the Track View... but in this instance it is shown in the PRV when it is not shown in the Track View.

Do you see how I might get confused in the midst of all this?

I think I hung in here pretty good. :-)

best regards,
mike

I tried a similar process using the Set Measure/Beat at Now.  I did see some similar issues but in the long run, I got to where I wanted to be a lot quicker.

I used Apply Trimming immediately after defining my four bar clip.  I then dragged the 4 bar clip to 01:01:00.  I snapped to the right clip boundary and then used the Now Time to Set Measure/Beat at Now to define that position as the first beat of the fifth bar.  Immediately, the clip expanded out past my previous right boundary.  I set SNAP to measures and dragged the boundary back to where it should be.  Then I created a Groove Clip with Ctrl-L and it performed that as expected.  I then could drag the boundaries where I wanted and duplicate clips.

I have to admit that Apply Trimming is a command that I have learned to use because I have seen this kind of head scratching behavior for a long time now.  I'm the type who doesn't have to be right, I just need to get to where I want to be so I have learned to "work" SONAR.  I think this kind of behavior is a by product of non destructive editing and keeping track of what is supposed to be there and what is supposed to be ignored by the program.  Me, I don't fear destruction at all and I will commit to destructive edited when I have things the way I want it.  This is because I started recording on 4 track cassettes and 8 track digital tape so at some point you HAD to commit. 

Your video shows that there is an underlying Bug that needs to be addressed once and for all.  It might be a good idea for all of us who want to document bugs to post these suckers on YouTube so there is no denying their existence.

mike you are my hero -
"proof is the bottom line for everyone. "

Jonbouy

It might be a good idea for all of us who want to document bugs to post these suckers on YouTube so there is no denying their existence.

+1,

Especially before surrendering to the stage where you either resign yourself to putting up with a cumbersome workaround for years or start banging your head against a wall.

It's difficult as I'm like you Dave and I tend to find a way to get where I want to go even if it involves an extended and or creative diversion but I'm starting to think more along the lines why should I make allowances for something half-baked or badly implemented, and I realise lately that actually I'm doing that much more than I need be just now.

You know, sometimes I hit these things and I'm thinking "What just happened?"  I don't know if I accidentally hit the wrong key or did something the wrong way.  Or, I'm moving along so fast that I can't remember what sequence of events triggered the behavior.  Or, I just don't have time to deal with figuring out what the problem is, I need to get finished with what I'm doing.

Mike here's a couple pf screen shots. No you're not crazy, That note was NOT there in the first instance.

guitarmikeh

WDI

guitarmikeh


since audio snap was just mentioned;
I just beat matched a song using audio snap. using "edit clip map" it all went swimmingly. even put time before beat 1...

I'm sure you're 4 minutes of testing AudioSnap should ensure it's working perfectly despite....
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=2171839

that comment reads a bit snippy to me. thanks. what's with all the hostility around here?? all I did was make a comment about one project I did. and it worked fine in that project that's all. jeeze

Sorry guitarmikeh. You're right. And I've been avoiding the forums due to all the negativity and look what I just did. I thought you just tested between posts. Either way it was uncalled for.

@ WDI. thanks for the apology. it's all good, and you just restored my faith in this community/forum. I understand its very heated around here. my install was fubar'd and X1 dont work so good for me. with many issues. I was just trying to mention a positive thing.

@chrisharbin; let's take it to the other thread. I'll bump it.

"Interesting, Mike.  Do you ever start putting together something for a clip by playing to a metronome?  Doesn't that make the process more straight forward?"
 
I use SONAR in so many ways. We free play into it. We play to clicks. We target a length and set up the tempo before we start. We lay down a groove clip and groove over it in loop record for hours while hoping for a visit from the muse. Whatever is appropriate for the situation.

I'm a one man example of how SONAR can be many thing to many people.

I have worked very hard at streamlining my personal process of bringing in someones scratch track and setting up a tempo system witout spoiling an artist's mood. I wish everyone practiced and played to a click... but the most creative people I encounter have to be fooled into using a click... sometimes I audio snap and set up a tempo map to an "organically played" acoustic guitar track and that becomes the click.. etc etc etc

Just before I made that video it was my intention to lay down a drum loop... maybe write a drum break in PRV that responded to my playing... lay down a funky funky bass track with my P-bass and then rip a new whole in the universe with some fun fun guitar improv.

All for my personal fun!

The drum clip I got stuck on should have taken about 3 or 4 minutes to work on and then I would have moved forward quickly.

I know many work around tricks to this problem... I know how to anticipate most of the foibles of Groove Clip looping and I can make loops quickly and easily... but I decided to see if I could just use the product exactly as it is advertised to work and show some people how well SONAR works in that context. 

I'm an old timer who has fully embraced loops and looping BUT I make on my 99.9% of the loops on the fly by either playing them or writing them in PRV or staff.

I thought Brian Eno was cool back in 1977... so loops make sense to me within the context of music that isn't seemingly loop based as well as applications where looping is an obvious feature.

I'm glad I don't have any more razor blades.

I can cut and paste with the best of them... but Cakewalk taught me too enjoy looping as he great convenience it is.

I also work with classical musicians who play traditional long form music.

My personal passions is for improvisational jazz styles from the late 1950's early 1960s and the great counter culture electric jam bands from today that come from that tradition.

Every day is different and I used to think Cakewalk, SONAR and I were on the same page... I still think it is the best package that realizes the future is ITB anything goes production. I think SONAR is already 95-98% there even if most people just work in one persoanl favorite methodology... the tool itself has been well imagined and almost realized to be all things to all people.

Lately, it seems as if it is frequently being suggested to me that I am supposed to get off the train and watch SONAR turn into a broswer based manufacturing plant for game soundtracks and dance hall grooves.

I have no idea how to react to that... I want to use it for that and lots lots more.

It seems as if it is repeatedly suggested that I go buy some second or third best software while I sit back and watch SONAR fall back to less than the best I already know it to be.

I'm gonna try to help Cakewalk see that I'd rather stick it out with SONAR.




"Your track view background is solid white?  --?"

Yes.



all the very best,
mike

"Right. So you were faking being prevented from working.

Wow."


Mr. John T,

I believe it is clear to everyone else that I was working with the tools as they are advertised to work. I was working with procedures clearly outlined in the manual as the correct steps to follow.

You are the only poster here who has chosen to provide a personal attack as a method of expressing disagreement.

I am weary of your personal attacks and I have reported your post as an example of your stalking and the personal attacks you incessantly provide in response to so many of my posts.

I have suggested to you several times that you should stay on topic and avoid using attacks on my skill set, character, or honesty as a debate technique.

I am also asking any and all forum members to provide  Report Abuse messages to forum moderators if they think that John T has indeed been stalking me with malicious intent.

I hope that if the moderators are presented with a handful of Report Abuse observations that you are indeed stalking my posts with malicious intent that eventually the moderators will warn you to cease and desist.

regards,
mike

Where's the personal attack? You've consistently presented this as an actual obstacle in your way, and then just admitted it actually wasn't.

I mean, sure, it's a bug. Why not just report it and can all the drama?

Asking why doesn't sonar work as the manual specifies is an entirely valid question. All I'm saying is, you could have approached it as such, but instead you did all this melodramatic play acting. I find it puzzling that a grown man would do this.

As for you "exercising great patience", this is entirely untrue. In the first exchange I had with you a month or so ago, you were (erroneously) slagging me off as a clueless hobbyist who should go away and use Home Studio instead within a couple of posts. I received several PMs from people expressing astonishment at how appallingly you were behaving. As far as I've been aware of you, you've been a 24-7 blowhard with absolutely appalling manners.

Good luck with your Report Abuse campaign. I anticipate you'll get little support and even less response.

Now that is a great new avatar Randy, ol pal.  Two thumbs up...way up.

But you said yourself above that you were:

"I know many work around tricks to this problem... I know how to anticipate most of the foibles of Groove Clip looping and I can make loops quickly and easily... but I decided to see if I could just use the product exactly as it is advertised to work and show some people how well SONAR works in that context."

Your own words, right there. So, you know, all this "sickening" stuff just won't wash. Your video shows you - yes - play-acting that you absolutely can't think of a solution and are being prevented from working.

When I saw it, it wrenched my guts, etc.