The Maillard Reaction
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video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mCaEnMpUXcw I encountered several bugs while trying to get a drum track started so I could play a little music yesterday. I got shut down and distracted trying to make this problem report video. I sent a link in for Cakewalk to view. I can't believe I had to pay to have all this fun. Anyways, I'm going to work in the field today... I'd rather get paid lots of money to make videos in the field than beat my head against the wall hoping SONAR X1a will work as advertised. best regards, mike
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wmb
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 07:00:46
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I've seen the groove clip lengthening behavior on wave files being converted to groove clips in Sonar 8. I resorted to copy paste when I noticed something about the looping not being quite right. I tried all the bounce to clips and trimming type stuff I could think of. I finally just did some copy/paste and moved on.
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fitzj
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 07:03:12
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Thanks for the video certainly strange going on's in X1.
I value your expertise and from this video you have tested this thoroughly and all you ask is the bugs to be fixed as you love the product like so many of us.
I know you have raised many issues with X1 but why has no one from Cakewalk answered.
All we require is Cakewalk admit things are not going well with x1 and they are working flat out to resolve the problems.
Is that too much to ask.
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Outlandish Music
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 07:08:55
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Hi Mike Justy watched this, and have to say I had seen similar in 8.5 with the midi note appearing, and the change in clip length when trying to loop it, never found a solution to this, just changed the way I worked which was not nice, but got the job done. I do hope Cake can fix this soon. Took comfort from this as I think of myself very much in the hobbiest tinkering with grown up toys rather than a pro, but I thought of all the steps to get this working as you did just ahead of you in the vid 
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Jonbouy
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 07:21:21
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fitzj
Thanks for the video certainly strange going on's in X1.
I value your expertise and from this video you have tested this thoroughly and all you ask is the bugs to be fixed as you love the product like so many of us.
I know you have raised many issues with X1 but why has no one from Cakewalk answered.
All we require is Cakewalk admit things are not going well with x1 and they are working flat out to resolve the problems.
Is that too much to ask.
Agreed Most of the posts that get a response are user problems which make it look like somebody is dumb because they haven't worked out command of the new interface yet, or issues where the user is told to 'be specific to keep the signal to noise ratio down'. In fact you pretty much know when you've hit on a real 'specific' issue because it all goes quiet. Video evidence is pretty hard to field off, but why put somebody through having to produce it when there is certainly awareness by now of many new and long-standing issues that are known yet avoided or played down? How much valuable customers time is going to be wasted here in this way because a company is prepared to put them through it in order to save face rather than being a bit more open when all the majority of us want is to get this thing the best we can get it for us, and for them!? If you ask me it's a right bloody shower, just now! If only because some awareness of some pretty half-baked practice is starting to dawn on me after these last few years.
post edited by Jonbouy - 2011/01/07 07:37:09
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DeveryH
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 07:28:51
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Great video Mike, you obviously found something. You should get one of those screen capture programs so it's easier to see. 
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fitzj
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 11:00:33
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That is a good way to show bugs, do a video and post just like Mike did. Damming evidence with video.
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yorolpal
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 11:13:44
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Yup, I remember folks complaining about similar behaviour in earlier versions. And I gotta tell ya this video is a great teaching tool on several levels. First it clearly shows the inconsistent and just plain wrong behaviour of the program. Second it shows hoops one might have to jump through to accomplish what should be a simple task. Third (and this is the one that hit home to me) it shows one how other folks might work with Sonar in a way you don't. By that I mean I would never be doing what Mike's doing in his process so I'm likely not to put much stock in his pronouncements of bugs in the looping process...until I see them and him in action. Then I have to sit back and say "whoa, now I see what he's talking about...plain and simple...and that's screwed up." It makes me remember that not everybody works like I do and may have all kinds of problems that I never encounter. However, one thing we absolutely have in common is that mysterious "flapping" sound that crops up intermittently while we're working. Mine is Boxer induced and I couldn't work without it:-) Great vid, ol pal. PS: My favorite part is where Mike says (I'm paraphrasing here) Well...it worked...but I have no clue why. I've said that myownself about eleventy-jilllion times while working with all the issues of Sonar.
post edited by yorolpal - 2011/01/07 11:16:18
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Grumbleweed_
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 11:19:44
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I'm still watching the video but I noticed that the change from "measure" to "triplets" occured when you looked at the piano roll view and not when you did the groove clip looping. It may not have any bearing on the matter but it's worth a mention (it's obvious that you never physically changed it). Grum. Edit: and the "snap to midi" turns itself back on.
post edited by grumbleweed4162 - 2011/01/07 11:23:42
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Grumbleweed_
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 11:39:26
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Excellent video. Nice job of staying calm in the face of adversity  . Grum.
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RLD
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 12:13:17
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Very interesting Mike. I think this may be a way to really get the point across and force the bug issues.
Youtube vids can apparently be quite powerful if enough people view it.
Maybe if everybody makes a vid of what "bugs" them, it will be more easily understood.
Also, along with what Yoropal mentioned, seeing how you work makes me wonder if I have a personality disorder.
I have produced hundreds of songs with various incarnations of Cakewalk products.
I must say that I've never encountered a bug that stopped me from doing my work.
In fact I can't think of one right now that causes me grief.
Of course that's just is a reflection of what I need and how I work.
If I try something that doesn't work as I expect, my first thought is "I must not be doing that right" and I find a way that works.
Watching you try and groove loop a clip (a feature I rarely use), I'm thinking "just copy and paste and keep going".
I hope you and others get these things ironed out.
post edited by RLD - 2011/01/07 12:16:49
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J.O.P
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 14:02:07
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Damn, that's hella frustrating. I personally had some issues with the groove clips on 8.5. I also just tried arranging things in the control module and low and behold I can't move things around in it.  They need to get these issues resolved.
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nprime
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 14:12:23
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Oh the humanity!
Painful to watch Mike.
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siris1977
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 15:08:30
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I think we are all in agreement here. when ever we have any issues we can't figure out please post a vid showing it. i am sure cakewalk know every single issue and some we havent found yet. But for the rest of us, we have a chance to see what people are doing and can imput ideas on how to fit or do it differently. that was very helpful and if i ever have an issue like that, I'll have a record of the way around it and we can save each other as much time as possible. We know cw has its hands full right now fixing X1 (probbly why alot of yall arent getting many responces) I can't imagine walking into work after thier time off and seeing the pile of crap from us to sort through. I figure they are especially working pretty hard to get X1 up to par as I saw a very attractive sale on protools HD 9 for $1100 ! but no i'm not saying where so you all dont buy them out before i deside if i want to. lol ;) job security. heheh
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codamedia
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 15:46:26
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fitzj
Thanks for the video certainly strange going on's in X1.
I value your expertise and from this video you have tested this thoroughly and all you ask is the bugs to be fixed as you love the product like so many of us.
I know you have raised many issues with X1 but why has no one from Cakewalk answered.
All we require is Cakewalk admit things are not going well with x1 and they are working flat out to resolve the problems.
Is that too much to ask.
First things first: To Mike! Thank you for taking the time to do this video. I've seen you brief on this problem in other threads, and I kept thinking "tell us exactly what is going on" but you did better than that, you showed us! Very well done, and in my eyes, contructive. Now to fitzj: I really can't agree with your comment above. Why do you think Cake is ignoring Mike and all other complaints? They came out with "X1a" within 2 weeks of release (is that not working flat out?), they put out a hot fix for certain audio cards a few days later (is that not working flat out) - took a break for X-Mas (oh - how selfish, LOL) and acknowledged that they are actively working on "X1b". Looks to me like they know there are problems and are working on as many as they can. Sure, there are bugs that need fixing - but to suggest they are not working to resolve the problems is just odd!
Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take!
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...wicked
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 16:28:05
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Yeah but I don't want to invest in a video camera or camtasia just to do Cake's bug hunt for them. When I return a shirt to the store I don't have to first shoot a professional runway video of me modelling it to explain that it looks bad or I don't like it.
Now that there's a whole pile of these non-showstopping but otherwise annoying behaviors it would be nice if there was a "task force" at HQ that could hunt the down and figure them out. I don't have time to write recipes and backtrack to recreate something when there's a hiccup every time.
To me, this video is a great response to the time tested "well can you fill out a problem report and make sure to fill it out COMPLETELY or it may not get looked at" stuff we hear (and to be honest we hear it from lots of companies).
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codamedia
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 16:47:17
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...wicked
Yeah but I don't want to invest in a video camera or camtasia just to do Cake's bug hunt for them. When I return a shirt to the store I don't have to first shoot a professional runway video of me modelling it to explain that it looks bad or I don't like it.
Now that there's a whole pile of these non-showstopping but otherwise annoying behaviors it would be nice if there was a "task force" at HQ that could hunt the down and figure them out. I don't have time to write recipes and backtrack to recreate something when there's a hiccup every time.
To me, this video is a great response to the time tested "well can you fill out a problem report and make sure to fill it out COMPLETELY or it may not get looked at" stuff we hear (and to be honest we hear it from lots of companies).
Comparing a shirt to a sophisticated piece of software isn't exactly fair :) I do agree with what you are saying, and Mike did go above and beyond to show what was happening. However I do think in the world of PC's (more than Macs due to the openess of PC's) a lot of things simply do not show their ugly heads unless under certain circumstances. I'm not saying this particular problem meets this scenerio, but the unlimited combination of third party devices, drivers, chipsets, etc... etc... makes it cost prohibitive for any company to test under ALL conditions. That is why they have the problem reports, and need them filled out completely. So they can replicate the scenerio, then work on fixing it. That being said - the problems that exist on every computer should have been noticed/corrected to begin with!
post edited by codamedia - 2011/01/07 16:51:42
Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take!
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HumbleNoise
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 16:59:23
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Mike,
Thanks so much for your time. The video was very illustrative of exactly some of the craziness I've encountered but I thought I just didn't know what I was doing. (Which I don't) Even though I use different methods to get to the same place, many times I need to trim, and check and recheck to create groove clips. I'm usually messing with them a lot so I figured I hit some hot key or was just doing it wrong. Man I'd love it if the method you've shown would simply create a groove clip.
What are the chances that the bakers will see this and do anything?
Does it need to be sent special delivery? Then what?
Does no one at Cakewalk create MIDI groove clips?
Is there another method?
Again thanks so much for taking the time.
Humbly Yours Larry Sonar X2 x64 MAudio 2496 Yamaha MG 12/4 Roland XV-88 Intel MB with Q6600 and 4 GB Ram NVidia 9800 GTX Windows 7 x64 Home Premium
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...wicked
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 17:15:32
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codamedia
Comparing a shirt to a sophisticated piece of software isn't exactly fair :)
Yeah I agree I'm oversimplifying things a bit. It's just that after a few weeks of non-stop reporting of bugs, oddities, and desires that we still get peeps from Cake piping in on a thread and saying "can you be specific about what problems you're having?" when it's been detailed at length in the current and several other threads. I mean sheesh if Cake doesn't already know about, say, the lassoing bug then we're up a creek.
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guitarmikeh
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 17:53:46
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Mike, Ive done a few projects in x1a. things were looking good... and... well, I just tried to do what your trying to do. it's a no go for me as well. all sorts of weirdness. it's disappointing. regards, mike
post edited by guitarmikeh - 2011/01/07 17:55:32
I harbor no ill will towards any man.
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WDI
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 17:58:34
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Good video Mike. Everyone needs to make videos like this and cakewalk should fix all these kinds things before implementing any new features or new releases. I like Sonar and have used it for years and Sonar has always been stable for me. Been using it since PA9. But as the years go by seems like a lot of these weird things get introduced and new versions come out without addressing these things. With this video there is no reason why the issue should not be obvious and addressed by Cakewalk. For instance the bugs with track lanes introduced in Sonar 4 and not addressed until Sonar 8 (at least I think track lanes were fixed). There is obviously buggy code. Who knows what else it's messing up. OK, who's up for doing one on Audio Snap?
post edited by WDI - 2011/01/07 18:02:30
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guitarmikeh
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 18:04:25
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since audio snap was just mentioned;
I just beat matched a song using audio snap. using "edit clip map" it all went swimmingly. even put time before beat 1...
I harbor no ill will towards any man.
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Brandon Ryan [Roland]
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 18:11:26
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...wicked
codamedia
Comparing a shirt to a sophisticated piece of software isn't exactly fair :)
Yeah I agree I'm oversimplifying things a bit. It's just that after a few weeks of non-stop reporting of bugs, oddities, and desires that we still get peeps from Cake piping in on a thread and saying "can you be specific about what problems you're having?" when it's been detailed at length in the current and several other threads. I mean sheesh if Cake doesn't already know about, say, the lassoing bug then we're up a creek.
I just wanted to be sure we were talking about the same lasso bug when I asked for clarification in another thread as it wasn't entirely specific. Also, I miss plenty of threads which is why it's good to officially report problems. You also must understand, Product management and Development look at this stuff separately from me. I live across the country from the home office and we have to synchronize and share information. Anyway, I'll take a look at the video as I'm sure will others. Incidentally, I sometimes make videos myself for sharing with the development team. It's a good way to get something across sometimes.
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Crg
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 18:34:52
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Hey Mike, Why is your track section completely white? Special color scheme? Rather than go through all those moves with trimming and hiding data, why wouldn't you just delete the sections you removed? Then you would have no hidden data. Or, highlight the section you wanted to groove clip, copy and paste it to another track? In essense aren't trying to groove clip a section within existing sections that even though they're hidden still occupy the place in the track they were removed from? wouldn't this force an option of replace old with new, overwrite or move existing over for new?
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WDI
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 18:55:23
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guitarmikeh
since audio snap was just mentioned;
I just beat matched a song using audio snap. using "edit clip map" it all went swimmingly. even put time before beat 1...
I'm sure you're 4 minutes of testing AudioSnap should ensure it's working perfectly despite.... http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=2171839
Sonar 7 PE Windows XP Pofessional (SP3) MSI K8N Neo4-F AMD Athlon 64 3500+ 2 GB PC 3200 Ram RME Fireface 800 Edirol FA-66 CM Labs MotorMix Old stuff: ARJO
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timidi
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 18:58:33
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this behavior is in 8.5 also.
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guitarmikeh
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 19:00:13
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WDI
guitarmikeh
since audio snap was just mentioned;
I just beat matched a song using audio snap. using "edit clip map" it all went swimmingly. even put time before beat 1...
I'm sure you're 4 minutes of testing AudioSnap should ensure it's working perfectly despite....
http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=2171839
that comment reads a bit snippy to me. thanks. what's with all the hostility around here?? all I did was make a comment about one project I did. and it worked fine in that project that's all. jeeze
I harbor no ill will towards any man.
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thegeek
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 19:08:53
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FWIW
to Mike
When you have slip edited a midi clip so that the last note "extends" right into the hidden data-area upon bouncing the clip it forces this last note to appear at its whole initial duration. This causes the bounced clip to be longer.
The workaround to your video problems is.......
Before applying bouncing (in order to be sure the hidden data are deleted and carry on making it a groove clip), chekc the last note duarion.....extend your clips slip edited left border - does the last note extend to there too? Then manually make it shorter (in PRV view).
Then apply bounce - it will now stay at the desired length
-then apply "groove clip" hotkey
;)
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ProjectM
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 19:49:38
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Hey Mike!
Good video for shure! I do recognise this behaviour from version 8 or 8.5, I don't quite remember exactly which one it was but it's been a current issue for me. It was somewhat different but the symptoms were the same.
I've just spent 20 minutes trying to recreate what happened in your video but I am baffled to say that it doesn't happen here. The old weird behaviour that I've experienced in past versions are gone too and it works fine. I'm not saying that it'll never happen but for the moment, looping and groove MIDI and groove clips works as advertised on my system.
This is what's really surprising me. Some users are having multiple and serious problems with their X1 install (not taking into account the issues people have with the new GUI) while others have no problems what so ever. My little niggles now is that the cursor disappears when Battery 3 is open and I search through menus and I've noticed that the Read and Write automation buttons change colors quite randomly. Besides that everything is fine here. So why people have all these different problems is beyond me.
but thanks for sharing the video. I'll keep an eye out for this;)
Best of luck!
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Crg
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Re:video of several bugs enoucountered while trying to make a groove clip
2011/01/07 19:50:02
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thegeek
FWIW
to Mike
When you have slip edited a midi clip so that the last note "extends" right into the hidden data-area upon bouncing the clip it forces this last note to appear at its whole initial duration. This causes the bounced clip to be longer.
The workaround to your video problems is.......
Before applying bouncing (in order to be sure the hidden data are deleted and carry on making it a groove clip), chekc the last note duarion.....extend your clips slip edited left border - does the last note extend to there too? Then manually make it shorter (in PRV view).
Then apply bounce - it will now stay at the desired length
-then apply "groove clip" hotkey
;)
I meant to say that
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