ORIGINAL: Jim Roseberry


then you come challange my level of knowledge/expertise.

You know the truth as well as I do. Anyone can build the exact same daw that you can. It's no amazing secret and has nothing to do with your experience. It's painfully obvious that anyone can do what you do. I'll say it gain, anyone can build any of your daws and achieve exactly what you do. And for a lot less money too. Just order the exact same parts you use from newegg.
What diff does your 14 years experience make if I, or anyone else, can make the exact same machine that you do?
Besides, all I'm challenging is the assertion that Vista can't be used in a DAW. It's incredible that this even needs to be stated. If you'd left it at that, this wouldn't need to keep going. Instead, you've needed to keep reverting to insults to make your points.

ORIGINAL: Fred Holmes

Oops - Sorry, thought this was a thread about aiso4all
Fred

Not anymore it seems, as OzziesFurHat , it's about a pissing contest now.

"How to make a fool of oneself, lesson one"

I'm not going to criticise Jim since I've always known him to be on the money, since way back in the old Cakewalk newsgroup days, but Modulation does have one good point: there are a lot of people in the DAW world who get labelled experts and their every word is taken as gospel, despite them continually stating provably incorrect technical facts. But because they've got the expert label, it's seemingly impossible to demonstrate to the majority that they're at fault.

I don't care about who is who here, but from the technical sight Jim is "unfortunately" right. Vista has (still) a way too high system latency compared to XP.
And until there are sufficient drivers/3rd party support for Vista64 is see no sense in changing to Vista.
If I got him right, that was what Jim als wanted to point out.

cheers,
Chris

Apparently "Pro" in this thread means
DAW builder...in which case those guys are still wrong because I built my own daws and ran Vista on them.

ORIGINAL: gordonrussell76

Modulation

I have read this thread, just out of interest becuase I am keeping a watching eye on VISTA, until more 3rd parties are compatable its not for me. But I am holding off on building my new DAW for another year, because I really think it has potential (plus those Quads just keep getting cheaper :))

I have read all the posts, and I get what your saying which is using Direct Monitoring bypass's the latency issue and means you can achieve great results. Hell I do this a lot using XP even though I have a powerful enough system to achieve low latency, for me its just more convenient sometimes than playing yoyo with the latency settings.

However for people who use a lot of softsynths and realtime effects like Guitar Rig etc, this is just not an option, and low latency is paramount. Therefore it is widely accepted by most people to a be a pretty important bench mark.

I think Jim and others have been right in posting warning about this so that people can weigh there opinion and consider it.

To suggest that its misleading also suggest that everyone in this forum is less intelligent than you and will follow Jim's recomendations like sheep. Er no.

Finally I found your attacks on Jim to be petty, and as for your attack on Susan, who is a valued humble and exemplarly member of this forum, for trying to gently point out to you that you might wish to see things from a different angle.

Well as someone said an abject lesson in how to make and idiot of yourself.


G

Sorry you see it that way. You've obviously missed the points I've been making.

And I in no way attacked Susan. Where did you get that from? I just cleared up why I said Jim and the others are wrong on two specific areas.

And, like many of actual Vista users have been saying, You can use Vista in the way you describe :

"However for people who use a lot of softsynths and realtime effects like Guitar Rig etc, this is just not an option, and low latency is paramount. "

I do that all the time. Low latency is paramount to me too. I have been doing that since I first got Vista several months ago. Try it for yourself and see.



edit------Nice sander BTW. I've always liked Bosch tools.

Modulation

Other people are allowed to have opinions. In my opinion you went for Susan, in my opinion you are behaving like a whining spoilt child.

Its also my opinion you have no ability to be self critical and that your very very insecure, which is why you refuse to back down, even though each of your posts increasingly make you look stupid.

Maybe consider geting some therapy or laid, whichever is the cheapest for you.

G

ORIGINAL: gordonrussell76

Modulation

Other people are allowed to have opinions. In my opinion you went for Susan, in my opinion you are behaving like a whining spoilt child.

Its also my opinion you have no ability to be self critical and that your very very insecure, which is why you refuse to back down, even though each of your posts increasingly make you look stupid.

Maybe consider geting some therapy or laid, whichever is the cheapest for you.

G

What in what I said went to far with Susan? And since you are allowing opinions, can I have one too?

I have no problem being self critical and have backed down many times in this and other threads already. I think it says more about you that you choose to attack me personaly.

I like your avatar BTW. Looks sweet.

ORIGINAL: gordonrussell76

Modulation

I have read this thread, just out of interest becuase I am keeping a watching eye on VISTA, until more 3rd parties are compatable its not for me. But I am holding off on building my new DAW for another year, because I really think it has potential (plus those Quads just keep getting cheaper :))

I have read all the posts, and I get what your saying which is using Direct Monitoring bypass's the latency issue and means you can achieve great results. Hell I do this a lot using XP even though I have a powerful enough system to achieve low latency, for me its just more convenient sometimes than playing yoyo with the latency settings.

However for people who use a lot of softsynths and realtime effects like Guitar Rig etc, this is just not an option, and low latency is paramount. Therefore it is widely accepted by most people to a be a pretty important bench mark.

I think Jim and others have been right in posting warning about this so that people can weigh there opinion and consider it.

To suggest that its misleading also suggest that everyone in this forum is less intelligent than you and will follow Jim's recomendations like sheep. Er no.

Finally I found your attacks on Jim to be petty, and as for your attack on Susan, who is a valued humble and exemplarly member of this forum, for trying to gently point out to you that you might wish to see things from a different angle.

Well as someone said an abject lesson in how to make and idiot of yourself.

I recommend you get one of these get rid of that nasty chip you seem to have on your shoulder.

G

+1 , esp. about implications that the rest of us are less intelligent because we value Jim and Scott's advice. And yes, I read the whole thread.

Knowledge is knowing what parts to buy from NewEgg.
Experience is knowing how to tweak it out for optimal performance. If I go in for heart surgery I want the guy who's well into 4 digits working on me, not the guy who's done it 4 times.

Experience matters.

Jon

ORIGINAL: Jon Bryson


+1 , esp. about implications that the rest of us are less intelligent because we value Jim and Scott's advice. And yes, I read the whole thread.

Knowledge is knowing what parts to buy from NewEgg.
Experience is knowing how to tweak it out for optimal performance. If I go in for heart surgery I want the guy who's well into 4 digits working on me, not the guy who's done it 4 times.

Experience matters.

Jon

When did I ever imply that the rest of 'you' are any less intelligent for following a Daw builders advice? The conclusions you guys are making are way off.

I'm only contending two points. I'll repeat them again. 1. That Vista can't be used professionally of by professionals.

2. The insulting and condescending way they have acted towards anyone that claims otherwise. That's it.

I've gone out of my way over and over again to state that their expertise is valuable and that I am grateful for them sharing it.

You guys are seeing what you want to see. Which again, says more about you that me.

ORIGINAL: vksf01

actually, it's a thread about who has a bigger penis

ORIGINAL: Fred Holmes

Oops - Sorry, thought this was a thread about aiso4all
Fred

And here's the winner!

WOW i go home and to bed and look at all the fun i missed.

Thanks Andy and a few others.

it would seem that a few thing are needed to be defined.

1) Pro (while this could be debated) someone who makes their primary living from recording (or has in the past)(of which i am not nor have i ever claimed to be)
and has been doing so for more than a few yrs. mind you this does not make you Chuck Ainlay, Rory Caplan, Paul Haslinger, Ed Cherney, Frank Fillipeti etc.
however my knowledge base is a combined input of all my employees (8) 3 of which are “pros” and from 10 yrs servicing the same and all their combined input.

2) why would you use vista?
what makes it a requirement or desire?

Vista 32 bit is a foolish move. it requires more resources than XP, offers no improvements in performance over XP (and in fact less performance) leaves less resources available to an already beleaguered
32 bit environment, has potential for many older (and newer apps) to not work, and possible driver issues. (yes it is much better than a yr ago but the potentials are still there)

now if all you do is track and mix with little or no samples, don’t need input monitoring or low latency and your total track count is fairly lite it aint gonna matter much anyway. (assuming all your software and drivers work)
(this is the average “what? Vista works great for me guy”) (not trying to offend anyone)

Vista 64: well this one is obvious. guys who are sample based who need more ram. if you do NOT fit in this category than you have no reason to go to 64 bit, if you are not adding 8 gig+ of ram
You have no reason to go Vista 64. Stick with XP and access to 3 of the 4gig or ram. The added 1gig by going 64bit is not worth the hassle, not to mention 4 gig on Vista is less resources than 3gig on XP. Plus the HAL still needs memory allocation and it gets worse with UAD/Poco.
the above negative about vista 32 are increased in 64bit. ( I so wish it were that simple)

3) true 64 bit. i could write 20 paragraphs on this alone. got news for you Sonar(nor any sequencer) is NOT true 64 bit when or if... you use ANY 32 bit apps/plug-ins/samples including the majority of those that come with Sonar or (insert name here)
i wont go into all the issues of Sonar 64 (and again insert others) in 64 bit.

95% of 3rd party apps are NOT large memory address aware, while one would assume each could access their 1.5-2.5G of ram and corporately use 8 gig (or more)this unfortunately
Is not that easy . Bit bridge comes into play in order for this to happen and it puts severe strain on the CPU.
Could we over compensate? Sure if you want to buy a dual quad Xeon and 16 gig ram. And still realize even after all that your still living on bleeding edge.

Plus a lot of these apps are looking for a certain memory allocation between 000 and fff with 64 bit upper memory areas sometimes cant even be accessed. (this is what bit bridge attempts to do for software but sometimes its hard coded into the app and wont work or confuses the app and adds delay, more memory re-writes, more branch command error in the cpu.

Ooops sorry getting too technical…

Now for clarification Koodoos to Cake for being so far out front on the 64 bit. The issue is not cake but mostly again 3rd party apps. (just in case anyone may think I am slighting cake)

SO whats a PRO to do?
If you’re NOT a composer or heavy samples user who is running out of ram long before cpu
You have no good reason to migrate to Vista as it’s a loss of performance unless you intend to overcompensate and deal with the potential pitfalls.

If you are a composer buy VSL or eastwest play ready (still very limited) and make sure you don’t use a single 32 bit plug-in.

Or what all real pro composers do
Use multiple slave computers on XP.

At least until 95% of 3rd party apps are re-written to be 64 bit and large address aware past 4gig.

Written by a guy who was so excited to hear about 64bit OS and still waiting for it to be a reality

Jon Bryson

Agreed, I have built my own PC's but I have been very lucky in that my day job I am surrounded by guys that know this stuff back to front. There are so many intricicies, you can't just buy componnents you have to know which one work best with which, etc etc. Even then I still covet a system built by the likes of Jim, becuase my guys know generic stuff taht works well together, Jim and Scott etc know what works specifically for audio.

Would I build again myself, posibly yes, becuase money is a consideration. What makes Jim adn Scott input to this forum even more astounding is when you consider I have seen them help and answer peoples questions and offer advice who are building their own PC's. SOme less enlightened would not do so hoping they would fail and then buy there product, but these guys actively try and put themselves out of business :)

For some reason I'm getting flashbacks from the SNL's "Your Company's Computer Guy" sketch.

Can we end this thread....please?

It's already so long that no one new is going to bother to read thru all of it. So it really has just turned into an ugly argument between a few people with no point.

1) Sonar performance using Vista has improved.
2) And every one's opinion should be respected regardless of expert status (not to be confused with high post count) or not.
Enough said.

Peace,
Eric