TomG
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*AMAZING* WaveRT in Vista X32 CREAMS both ASIO and WDM in Win XP X32 !!
Here it is. - Vista X32 - Echo Layla 3g 8.1 Driver - Layla Control Panel - Core Audio Sample Rate set to 44.1k <= very important - Intel Quad Core 4 x 3.6gig DAW - Matrox Video PCI-E Card - 2 Gig DDR 2 - ASIO4ALL 2.8 - Sonar 7 - Sonar 7 Test Song - Room for Clarity - Looped from Bar 105 <-> End [Most CPU intense part of Song] - 1.5ms Latecny at all times
- 64 Bit Audio Engine - CPU Readings taken from the Vista Task Meter NOT the Sonar 7 cpu meter - Tested with ASIO and WDM Mode in Win XP X32 - Tested with ASIO and WDM Mode in Vista X32 - Tested with "WaveRT" only in Vista X32 - All Hardware, Software and Test Song settings left unchanged / identical for each test As of now, the Echo 8.1 Driver is NOT WaveRT compliant with Sonar because is does not YET support "event notification mode" or things along that line - apologies if my terminolgy is not quite right. Then I remembered, ASIO 2.8 DOES support WaveRT event notification. *** Efficiency Disclaimer *** Now before you read the following results, remember, this is the ASIO4ALL driver over-layed on the Echo 8.1 Driver - ie: 2 different drivers operating on the one card, so driver efficiency and optimisation is going to be far from great. Also, this setup is not fully stable - occassional audio corruption - however it works well enough to test the above song
Results:-
Echo 8.1 Vista Optimized ASIO Driver
- CPU Use bounces between %24 <-> %29 - absolute low is %20 - absolute high is %32
Echo WDM Driver Over-Layed with ASIO4ALL WaveRT Implementation
- CPU Use bounces between %19 <-> %26 - absolute low is %16 - absolute high is %27
- Echo WDM Driver and Echo ASIO Driver both tested in Win XP Pro X32
- CPU Use bounces between %24 <-> %29 - absolute low is %20 - absolute high is %32 - same for both WDM and ASIO - no change
The numbers speak for themselves.
I have repeated the above results numerous times with numeroous re-sets / re-boots / re-wave-profiling etc.... they are %100 consistent.
Remembering the above Efficiency Disclaimer, this "hacked / overlayed" WaveRT implemetation shows a CPU efficiency improvmenent of %14 <-> %18 over the non-WaveRT drivers.
At this sort of latency [1.5ms] with projects of this size and complexity, this is simplay and AMAZING CPU efficiency gain, and let me say it again, this is NOT with Echo's yet to be released Sonar WaveRT driver - it is with a 3rd party over-lay.
In Summary - given the above setup and hardware:-
- Using ASIO or WDM drivers for either Vista or XP, Sonar 7.02 X32 performs THE SAME under Vista X32 and Win XP PRO X32
- Using "over-layed" / "non-optimized" WaveRT drivers, Sonar 7.02 X32 SIGNICANTLY OUTPERFORMS both ASIO and WDM in BOTH Vista X32 and Win XP Pro X32
Finally, despite all the nay-sayers, all the hype around WaveRT is actually true.
Cant wait for the proper Echo WaveRT Sonar driver - logically, its got to be at least as good as this "hack-job" and given Echo's excellent driver reputation, will almost certainly be better.
TomG
post edited by TomG - 2008/01/28 02:05:19
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Anubis
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/27 21:32:38
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This doesn't surprise me. A4ALL usually smokes any of the "authentic" drivers.
X2Studio_Win7(64)_SamsungChronos_QuNexus_QuNeo_Axiom25_Saffire24Pro_Saffire6USB_EdirolPCR300_Nocturn Amplitubes_AmpegSVX_StylusRMX_SampleTank/Tron_Komplete7_AddictiveDrums_TRacks3_Wavelab6 miTunes
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guitartrek
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/27 21:48:02
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Those are indeed staggering results.
I don't know why these manufactures keep trying to write their own drivers. We wait and wait and Michael Tippach has already written one that is excellent. They should all just license ASIO4ALL. I don't know what these manufacturers do, but it must cost them a lot of time and money to develop these drivers. And that translates into time and money for us consumers. (the price of the device covers the cost of driver development) Meanwhile Michael runs circles around them. WaveRT is for PCI cards only, but ASIO4ALL will take a USB or Firewire device and translate into WaveRT.
Well that's my idea anyway. Maybe Michael doesn't want to do this.
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soundtweaker
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/27 21:49:18
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I'd like to test this project on my vista 64 system. Does the new 2.8 driver work on Vista 64?
post edited by soundtweaker - 2008/01/27 22:11:57
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guitartrek
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/27 22:10:01
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ORIGINAL: soundtweaker
I'd like to test this project on my vista 64 system.
Does the new 2.8 driver work on Vista 64?
I wish, but unfortunately not. He says he has to re-write the whole thing for x64 - ( he's probably already working on it )
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TomG
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/28 01:48:33
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Hi all
The first post has now been updated with ASIO and WDM WinXP X32 results as well as Vista X32 ASIO and WaveRT results.
In short, Vista X32 WaveRT creams Win XP X32 WDM and Win XP X32 ASIO.
And this is comparing extremely mature Win XP X32 ASIO and WDM drivers against incomplete / non-otimized / over-layed WaveRT drivers.
TomG
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Jim Roseberry
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/28 08:30:01
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This doesn't surprise me. A4ALL usually smokes any of the "authentic" drivers. FWIW, This doesn't surprise me either... as ASIO4ALL increases latency. (The greater efficiency/performance is due to the higher latency.) Same thing can be accomplished by increasing the latency with the stock driver...
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TomG
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/28 18:12:19
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Hi Jim and others. I cant speak for other people but when I used the 2.8 ASIO4ALL driver over-layed onto the Echo Driver as well as testing full WaveRT mode, I also ran tests with the ASIO4ALL "ASIO" mode driver - I didnt bother to report these above. When using the ASIO4ALL driver in "ASIO" mode over-layed with the exisiting Echo driver, the results were: - CPU Use bounces between %24 <-> %29 - absolute low is %20 - absolute high is %32 ie: exactly the same as the Echo Vista ASIO optimized driver - if latency had been introduced, these figures would have been lower Again, this was re-done and repeated wiht re-boots etc... several times and again was %100 repeatable. I dont know if the ASIO4ALL driver increases latecny in other setups, but I can say in the above test setup it did not. thanks, tom
post edited by TomG - 2008/01/28 18:28:45
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soundtweaker
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/28 18:51:26
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So much for Vista's "built in" latency everyone kept insisting it was.
It's all about the drivers.
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guitartrek
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/28 19:13:54
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ORIGINAL: TomG
I dont know if the ASIO4ALL driver increases latecny in other setups, but I can say in the above test setup it did not.
thanks,
tom
I've also experienced the same thing. From my limited testing, ASIO4ALL either meets or exceeds manufacturer's ASIO drivers. Not sure how people are finding a higher latency with ASIO4ALL. If it produced higher latency as a rule of thumb, no one would use it. But there are a lot of people that use.
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strungdown
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/28 19:46:06
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PEOPLE! I CAN'T STRESS THIS ENOUGH! WHEN DISCUSSING LATENCY YOU MUST ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS TEST YOUR ROUND TRIP LATENCY WITH CENTRANCE TOOL AFTER PATCHING A LOOP BACK CABLE! http://centrance.com/products/ltu/
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DonM
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/28 19:46:54
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So... Remind me
WaveRT
#1 PCI interfaces ONLY
#2 Internally clocked interfaces ONLY
-Not interested here.
-D
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soundtweaker
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/28 20:31:50
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ORIGINAL: strungdown
PEOPLE! I CAN'T STRESS THIS ENOUGH!
WHEN DISCUSSING LATENCY YOU MUST ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS TEST YOUR ROUND TRIP LATENCY WITH CENTRANCE TOOL AFTER PATCHING A LOOP BACK CABLE!
http://centrance.com/products/ltu/
That tool wont work for these tests. It only works in XP.
post edited by soundtweaker - 2008/01/29 00:05:38
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guitartrek
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/28 21:18:46
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ORIGINAL: strungdown
PEOPLE! I CAN'T STRESS THIS ENOUGH!
WHEN DISCUSSING LATENCY YOU MUST ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS TEST YOUR ROUND TRIP LATENCY WITH CENTRANCE TOOL AFTER PATCHING A LOOP BACK CABLE!
http://centrance.com/products/ltu/
I don't own a loopback cable or the Centrance tool. I've got a simple system and a simple test. I choose ASIO4ALL and reduce the buffer size until I get crackles and pops. Then I load up the Manufacturer's ASIO driver and do the same thing with the same project. The one that works with the lowest buffer size wins. I know this is not scientifc, but wouldn't this work?
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strungdown
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/28 21:53:02
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ORIGINAL: guitartrek
ORIGINAL: strungdown
PEOPLE! I CAN'T STRESS THIS ENOUGH!
WHEN DISCUSSING LATENCY YOU MUST ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS TEST YOUR ROUND TRIP LATENCY WITH CENTRANCE TOOL AFTER PATCHING A LOOP BACK CABLE!
http://centrance.com/products/ltu/
I don't own a loopback cable or the Centrance tool. I've got a simple system and a simple test. I choose ASIO4ALL and reduce the buffer size until I get crackles and pops. Then I load up the Manufacturer's ASIO driver and do the same thing with the same project. The one that works with the lowest buffer size wins. I know this is not scientifc, but wouldn't this work?
Unfortunately, we can't know for sure, so me must assume it is not accurate. The reason is that drivers can report whatever latency they want; however, this may have little bearing on the actual, real-world latency. This is because any driver may introduce a tiny latency (for example, safety buffers) that would be undetectable to the human ear, yet highly significant for CPU usage. Since ASIO4ALL is introducing an unknown amount of latency, this may be giving the CPU more time to process FX. I apologize for writing in all caps and if I come across as rude, but it is of the utmost importance to know the precise round-trip latency when testing this sort of thing.
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Junski
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/28 23:38:17
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ORIGINAL: soundtweaker
That tool wont work for these tests. I only w
ORIGINAL: strungdown
PEOPLE! I CAN'T STRESS THIS ENOUGH!
WHEN DISCUSSING LATENCY YOU MUST ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS TEST YOUR ROUND TRIP LATENCY WITH CENTRANCE TOOL AFTER PATCHING A LOOP BACK CABLE!
http://centrance.com/products/ltu/
That tool wont work for these tests. It only works in XP.
Have you/anyone checked what values this Cycling '74: Max/MSP's latency testing tool gives for you ... http://forum.cakewalk.com/fb.asp?m=1286308 As showing up there in my post, there were some differences showing up between ctasio and asio4all. Junski
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Jim Roseberry
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/29 02:06:38
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So much for Vista's "built in" latency everyone kept insisting it was. Vista has inherently higher system latency (anyone can see/measure it with the DPC tool)... which is most definitely the root cause of poor low-latency audio performance. Higher system latency (not to be confused with audio latency) will always make a system more prone to dropouts/glitches/etc in a realtime application. Reduce the higher system latency... and you'll find that ALL audio interfaces perform better at low-latency. In fact, all realtime applications will perform significantly better. If it was simply a matter of writing a "good" driver, RME and MOTU would have already had the problem addressed. ASIO4All may allow some to work under Vista (and that's great), but it's not a real solution to the problem. Address the underlying problem (high system latency)... and Vista will be the OS that we want/need.
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Jim Roseberry
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/29 07:20:42
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I dont know if the ASIO4ALL driver increases latecny in other setups, but I can say in the above test setup it did not. Hi Tom, FWIW, If you measure the round-trip latency when using ASIO-4-ALL, you'll see that it is adding additional latency. MOTU 896HD 64-sample buffer/44.1k * ASIO-4-ALL has a round-trip latency of 9.68ms * Stock MOTU ASIO driver has a round-trip latency of 5.51ms With the round-trip latency being nearly double, you'd expect the ASIO-4-ALL driver to out-perform the stock ASIO driver... and it does.  ASIO-4-ALL is fine when working with one-way (playback) latency... But for software-based input monitoring, the better part of 10ms is too sluggish. Now... on to better news: Somewhere between the initial release of Sonar 7.01 and 7.02... low-latency performance has gotten a LOT better (running ASIO or WDM/KS) under Vista. I'm not sure if it's the result of the performance optimizations in 7.02... or a recent MS update. Playing "Back and Forth" at the most dense section (64-sample ASIO buffer size/44.1k - 5.5ms round-trip latency), I can get playback to glitch by zooming in/out, but I have to try to make it happen (and its very minimal - not like it used to be). When running WDM/KS drivers, playback is smooth (albeit with slightly higher round-trip latency) when zooming in/out... Other than some very slight pops/ticks when zooming, performance is equal to WinXP. Perhaps Hell has frozen over...   System latency is still high under Vista, but Sonar now seems to circumvent this problem using the MMCS feature. Vista will now stay on my main studio DAW... If you're after solid low-latency performance under Vista, the answer really isn't ASIO-4-ALL, its a solid audio interface with good low-latency drivers... a fully patched Vista... and Sonar v7.02. Plus ca change... plus c'est la meme chose
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Modulation
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/29 08:12:56
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ORIGINAL: Jim Roseberry
performance is equal to WinXP.
Perhaps Hell has frozen over...
System latency is still high under Vista, but Sonar now seems to circumvent this problem using the MMCS feature.
Vista will now stay on my main studio DAW...
Did I just read this right?!!!! and after all the grief some of us where put through....... edit------and for the record---7.02 was released on 1-03-2008. The last Microsoft patch I had installed during the battle of the Vistamo was 12-27-2007. Last day of the 'Battle of the Vistamo' was 1-07-2008....Just for the record.
post edited by Modulation - 2008/01/29 09:22:50
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Nick P
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT in Vista X32 CREAMS both ASIO and WDM in Win XP X32 !!
2008/01/29 08:17:21
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I gotta go with Jim Roseberry on this. A pro system builder with many happy customers on these forums. Thanks, Jim, for hanging around and giving your input.
Cakewalk Forums - A Great Learning Resource For All Things Cakewalk!
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Jon Bryson
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/29 11:21:10
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ORIGINAL: Jim Roseberry
Perhaps Hell has frozen over...
System latency is still high under Vista, but Sonar now seems to circumvent this problem using the MMCS feature.
Vista will now stay on my main studio DAW...
If you're after solid low-latency performance under Vista, the answer really isn't ASIO-4-ALL, its a solid audio interface with good low-latency drivers... a fully patched Vista... and Sonar v7.02. Plus ca change... plus c'est la meme chose
Now *this* is news! Jon
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Jim Roseberry
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/29 13:30:09
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Did I just read this right?!!!!
and after all the grief some of us where put through....... Hi Mod, You did read that right... My previous tests with Vista (prior to v7.02) showed very poor performance at ultra low (audio) latency. I ran a battery of tests *many* different times between Vista's release and that point. There have been no hardware/config changes (or driver updates) since my previous round of tests. I have been very critical of Vista's performance... What you don't know is that there was a meeting a while back where a MS rep was able to duplicate the problems I was experiencing. Perhaps it's nothing but coincidence, but I'll bet that meeting had something to do with the fix. As much as I've shared the 'bad' news... I'm now more than happy to share the good news about Vista. I'll clarify: Something changed after v7.01 regarding Vista's low-latency performance. That change has made Vista useable at ultra-low latency. Note that system latency is still high... and that's not a good thing for realtime applications. MMCS is a way to circumvent this problem... but if it weren't higher... then low-latency performance "across the board" would be just as smooth as WinXP. In any event, Sonar 7.02 is now working well at ultra low latency under Vista.
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Modulation
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Jim Roseberry
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/29 14:13:41
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Ok. But 7.02 came out on 1-03-2007. You where telling me I was wrong, living in a fantasy, and full of BS AFTER that. When I insisted that Vista was in deed fine at low latency. I'm not expecting anything from you . Just pointing that out. You listed the date for the last patch YOU downloaded. That doesn't mean it was the last patch MS released. Those 'arguments' went on for days... You can nit-pic about a couple of days... but the bottom line is that I showed you exactly WHY Vista's ultra low latency performance was bad. And it **was** bad... Vista is still not an ideal OS for realtime applications. MMCS circumvents the problem... but doesn't eliminate it. So you want to argue that I was wrong for what amounts to a few days??? If that makes you happy... But I was dead right (with specifics) for nearly a year.
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C Hudson
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/29 14:14:48
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Hey Jim ,
Thanks for the update.Glad to see Vista's audio performance is finally meeting your expectations. Will be really nice to see when it behaves as nice as XP :)
FWIW, I have using Vista for a while and have not had any issues with low latency. XP might have performed better, but I am and was not getting clicks/pops while running several dozen tracks and monitoring a few tracks while tracking for amp sims etc.
Not sure why, but I'm not complaining :)
Thanks again for the update, keep us informed in case Hell starts to thaw ;)
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Jim Roseberry
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/29 14:17:58
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I've also experienced the same thing. From my limited testing, ASIO4ALL either meets or exceeds manufacturer's ASIO drivers. Not sure how people are finding a higher latency with ASIO4ALL. If it produced higher latency as a rule of thumb, no one would use it. But there are a lot of people that use. Use the CEntrance round-trip latency measurement tool... and you'll see the additional latency that ASIO-4-ALL adds. With a MOTU 896HD 64-sample ASIO buffer/44.1k: * Stock MOTU driver has a round-trip latency of 5.51ms * ASIO-4-ALL has a round-trip latency of 9.68ms That's nearly double the round-trip latency... And that completely explains the performance increase. Double the stock driver's latency... and it'll perform *much* better.
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Modulation
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/29 14:18:50
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ORIGINAL: Jim Roseberry
Ok. But 7.02 came out on 1-03-2007. You where telling me I was wrong, living in a fantasy, and full of BS AFTER that. When I insisted that Vista was in deed fine at low latency. I'm not expecting anything from you . Just pointing that out.
You listed the date for the last patch YOU downloaded.
That doesn't mean it was the last patch MS released.
Those 'arguments' went on for days...
You can nit-pic about a couple of days... but the bottom line is that I showed you exactly WHY Vista's ultra low latency performance was bad.
And it **was** bad...
Vista is still not an ideal OS for realtime applications.
MMCS circumvents the problem... but doesn't eliminate it.
So you want to argue that I was wrong for what amounts to a few days???
If that makes you happy...
But I was dead right (with specifics) for nearly a year.
No. Just pointing out that I ( and the other Vista defenders) where right during the time you where telling me I was wrong, living in a fantasy and full of BS. I'm just pointing it out because of the way you and the others jumped down anyone that dared say they had a different experience. But whatever. have a great day and enjoy your Vista DAW.
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Jim Roseberry
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/29 14:41:39
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No. Just pointing out that I ( and the other Vista defenders) where right during the time you where telling me I was wrong, living in a fantasy and full of BS.
I'm just pointing it out because of the way you and the others jumped down anyone that dared say they had a different experience.
But whatever. have a great day and enjoy your Vista DAW. OK Mod... You were right for ~3 days. I was right for ~300+ days. "Vista - now featuring solid ultra-low latency performance." Brought to you in part by "Vista haters" everywhere...
post edited by Jim Roseberry - 2008/01/29 14:57:49
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jcschild
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/29 14:49:14
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i am not even touching this thread
Scott ADK Home of the Kentucky Fried DAW!
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Modulation
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RE: *AMAZING* WaveRT results in Vista X32 with Sonar 7
2008/01/29 14:49:29
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