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carlosagm79
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2011/02/19 17:59:37 (permalink)

ASIO Direct Monitoring

Hey guys, what about ADM, or hardware diretc monitoring support in sonar X1?, the ability of Sonar tracks to open the respective hardware mixer input and monitoring with CERO LATENCY, like Cubase does, its good to have that on a DIGI 001/002 system , or a Creative audigy or X-Fi or whatever other ASIO compatible card, I need it a lot, some like Creative cards have external soft mixer and even hardware monitoring effects(so I can bypass Sonar), but not the DIGI, I really need this feature
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    BlixYZ
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/20 10:05:36 (permalink)
    i think you are confusing two different things.  zero latency monitoring is done throough hardware and its drivers.  it has nothing to do with software.
    low latency monitoring depeends on all variables:  software, computer specs, hardware and its drivers, etc.
    i use sonar with a 2626 and octane and have zero latency monitoring using the hardware control software and appropriate roouting.

    i also take advantage of near zero latency for playing and recording soft synths.  this is dependent upon the quality of your audio hardawre and its drivers.  sonar will go as low as your pc and hardware allow.

    i hope this made sense- sent from droid
    #2
    carlosagm79
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/20 10:41:12 (permalink)
    BlixYZ


    i think you are confusing two different things.  zero latency monitoring is done throough hardware and its drivers.  it has nothing to do with software.
    low latency monitoring depeends on all variables:  software, computer specs, hardware and its drivers, etc.
    i use sonar with a 2626 and octane and have zero latency monitoring using the hardware control software and appropriate roouting.

    i also take advantage of near zero latency for playing and recording soft synths.  this is dependent upon the quality of your audio hardawre and its drivers.  sonar will go as low as your pc and hardware allow.

    i hope this made sense- sent from droid


    No, Im not confused, Cubase and Reaper have the ability to open the hardware mixer input channel (wish of course have 0 latency and its not audio routed trough the sequencer or plugins effects, also have nothing to do with computer specs)
    Its a ASIO driver capability thats Sonar does not have really, i mean
    -One thing its monitoring trough Sonar with plug-ins(need great computer, low latency drivers, etc)
    -Another thing is bypassing the monitoring in the sequencer and go to the audio device hardware or software mixer and monitoring with zero latency the incoming audio
    -And the final one is when the sequencer opens/close/control directly the current hardware/soft device mixer input without need to go for the external mixer and with zero latency
    #3
    BlixYZ
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/20 11:07:13 (permalink)
    its still passing through the audio hardware and through its drivers.  its not zero latency unless it remains in the audio signal chain.  
    for practical purposes there is no noticable latency, but that is not a unique feature nor is it true zero latency,
    i also use reaper.
    in sonar, it is called input monitoring.  it works best with asio drivers.
    in any of these programs, when u directly open an input channel, your asio driver interface will report its current latency.
    it may be close to zero, but it cannot be zero once u go thru your audio interface.
    that is the current reality.
    #4
    brundlefly
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/20 11:17:25 (permalink)
    James, you need to do a little research on ASIO Direct Monitoring. It's a standard tha allows an ASIO host to enable hardware monitoring in an interface that supports it. This bypasses The A/D/A converters and is true, zero-latency direct monitoring. SONAR does not support it. SONAR's CTO, Noel Borthwick has said this is becasue the standard is not well-defined.
    #5
    carlosagm79
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/20 14:33:15 (permalink)
    Hey BlixYZ ;zero latency does not exist on this earth (no in analog equipment, no in the best digitals) because electrons travel in the time/space and the computes have to do their math, etc, everybody knows that, but thats not wham Im talking about, see the post above 
    #6
    BlixYZ
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/20 15:30:22 (permalink)
    so the audio signal goes thru the usb or firewire into the daw without going thru the ad converters?

    what interfaces support that?
    how could that work?  
    can asking this question please count as the research i need to do?

    is this a better option than the direct monitoring allowed by interfeces like my profire 2626?

    school me people.
    #7
    carlosagm79
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/20 16:22:00 (permalink)
    BlixYZ


    so the audio signal goes thru the usb or firewire into the daw without going thru the ad converters?





     Wow who said that!?
    Now I think you are slow,the signal never goes trough the DAW with ASIO hardware direct monitoring , the DAW(and I'm talking about a sequencer like Cubase) just open the correspondent physical input , or the device mixer channel, I mean, its juts a way to open and control the interface i/o mixer without live the DAW ( cons: no fx plugin pros: ¨zero¨latency) 




    #8
    pinguinotuerto
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/20 16:35:29 (permalink)
    Hey Carlos,

    Funny, I just posted this on another thread. I have a Line 6 UX8.

    With the UX8 latency will never be an issue as it provides Tone Direct Monitoring which bypasses your recording software.  You can monitor with any effect in your POD Farm/Gear Box library (100's of them) with no noticeable latency. 
     
    You don't do it through Sonar, you open one of the Line 6 programs like PodFarm or Gear Box and you can monitor through them with any effect you want (from the ones available in the program) while recording.

    For what it's worth:

    ToneDirect™ Monitoring
    ToneDirect™ Monitoring is a unique feature of Line 6 USB audio interfaces that provides an extremely low latency monitor signal for your POD Farm processed Tones. The ToneDirect monitor signal is routed through your device directly to your Main/Analog Outputs, while your input source signal is simultaneously fed out the Record Sends to your DAW software for recording. This allows you to configure your Tones in POD Farm while in standalone mode as you want to hear them for your performance, and then choose to feed either this "processed" signal, or a "dry", unprocessed signal to your DAW. Recording a dry signal in your DAW software allows you to then use POD Farm Plug- In on the DAW track to "non-destructively" make changes to your recorded track’s Tone any time up until your final mix. Or, you can choose to feed the fully processed Tone from the POD Farm standalone application to the Record Sends, and record your POD Farm Tones exactly as you hear them! Please see the following Mixer View section for details on configuring the Record Sends.
    Also, since ToneDirect handles all the monitoring completely through your Line 6 unit's hardware rather than through your DAW software, you won’t need to use your DAW’s "software monitoring" features. This means you can typically keep the DAW software’s buffers at higher settings for greater stability and better CPU performance!
    post edited by pinguinotuerto - 2011/02/20 16:39:03

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    ba_midi
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/20 16:46:47 (permalink)
    brundlefly


    James, you need to do a little research on ASIO Direct Monitoring. It's a standard tha allows an ASIO host to enable hardware monitoring in an interface that supports it. This bypasses The A/D/A converters and is true, zero-latency direct monitoring. SONAR does not support it. SONAR's CTO, Noel Borthwick has said this is becasue the standard is not well-defined.

    Other hosts are doing it.
     
     

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    #10
    pinguinotuerto
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/20 16:53:28 (permalink)
    BlixYZ is right, there's no way to bypass your A/D converters.

    I think there's some confusion going on regarding what we're talking about. 

    With any type of monitoring you still have to go through your A/D D/A converters, otherwise you wouldn't hear the processed signal.  It's not Zero latency it's imperceptible latency to the human ear.

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    #11
    carlosagm79
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/20 16:58:05 (permalink)
    with Audigy Platinum EX I use the creative mixer and thats it, I never use Sonar to monitor the inputs, but with the DIGI, well the DIGI does not have software mixer, the things is that Pro tool give you ¨real time monitoring¨, but not Sonar
    #12
    pinguinotuerto
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/20 17:05:28 (permalink)
    I see what you're saying, Carlos. I think you have your own  answer.

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    #13
    carlosagm79
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/20 17:09:36 (permalink)
    pinguinotuerto


    BlixYZ is right, there's no way to bypass your A/D converters.

       

     
    And i just tell him than I don't say that ASIO hardware direct monitoring bypasses A/D D/A converters, thats just stupid, I just said that open the interface channel mixer from the sequencer without the need to go for a external application...

    #14
    BlixYZ
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/20 17:17:44 (permalink)
    so the audio signal goes thru the usb or firewire into the daw without going thru the ad converters?

    what interfaces support that?
    how could that work?  
    can asking this question please count as the research i need to do?

    is this a better option than the direct monitoring allowed by interfeces like my profire 2626?

    school me people.
    #15
    carlosagm79
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/20 17:28:54 (permalink)
    BlixYZ


    so the audio signal goes thru the usb or firewire into the daw without going thru the ad converters?

    what interfaces support that?
    how could that work?  
    can asking this question please count as the research i need to do?

    is this a better option than the direct monitoring allowed by interfeces like my profire 2626?

    school me people.





    You know what, now I'm thinking, this was not an important detail for me, anyway, probably in fact bypasses AD/DA converters and the interface just passes through the electrical (analog) signal
    But this is not what my post is about







    #16
    carlosagm79
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/20 17:35:35 (permalink)
    If Sonar had hardware ASIO direct monitoring ,you would not have to touch your profire 2626 interface or soft mixer, because everything its controlled from inside Sonar tracks..
    #17
    HMusikk
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/20 18:02:21 (permalink)
    I have asked this question before. Take a look here: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=1617645&high=direct+monitoring 
    if you read through this thread you'll see that Cakewalk don't like DM... so bottom line will'll never get it in SONAR....

    Gunnar Hustvedt
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    #18
    ba_midi
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/20 19:30:36 (permalink)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9a8XFdc_WU
     
    Here's one example of another DAW's method to having, in this example, zero latency cue mixes.
     
     

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    #19
    VigilantSound
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/20 19:44:45 (permalink)
    I said it in HM's last thread and im gonna say it again.

    I hate switching to an applet just to give someone more me in the cans...

    ADM would be awesome forsonar and it would really help it rise abovethe others...

    Just so you guys know, Presonus StudioOne supports ADM but  only with Presonus interfaces...The problem with ADM for sonar is they would have to write codefor ever interface on the market, wich is alot to say the least, plus the interfaces them selves have to support it...Thats why they will never add it, but i thought when they came out with the v studios they wouldsupport it.. but the dont either...

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    #20
    VigilantSound
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/20 19:49:03 (permalink)
    And also ADM dosnt  bypass anything, it makes 2 streams of data, 1 that goes directly to the outputs being monitored and 1 that goes to the DAW..

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    #21
    SoundBank
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/20 20:08:19 (permalink)
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9a8XFdc_WU
    Here's one example of another DAW's method to having, in this example, zero latency cue mixes.
    ba-midi

    _____________________________________________________________________________

    I understand that was just an example ba_midi, and Studio One makes this easy, but the guy in the video clearly states this only works when using
    • Presonus Studio One 
    • Presonus Audio Interface
    To compare "Apple to Apples" we would only expect
    • Cakewalk Sonar to do this with a
    • Cakewalk/Edirol interface.


    Interfaces do allow Direct Monitoring...the
    M-Audio Fast Track stuff even has onboard effects.
    I do realize the original post is asking if this can be done from "within the DAW"
    In the Fast Tracks case...you would have to go into the ASIO tab to get to it.


    post edited by SoundBank - 2011/02/20 20:34:30
    #22
    ba_midi
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/20 21:40:11 (permalink)
    SoundBank


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P9a8XFdc_WU
    Here's one example of another DAW's method to having, in this example, zero latency cue mixes.
    ba-midi

    _____________________________________________________________________________

    I understand that was just an example ba_midi, and Studio One makes this easy, but the guy in the video clearly states this only works when using
    • Presonus Studio One 
    • Presonus Audio Interface
    To compare "Apple to Apples" we would only expect
    • Cakewalk Sonar to do this with a
    • Cakewalk/Edirol interface.


    Interfaces do allow Direct Monitoring...the
    M-Audio Fast Track stuff even has onboard effects.
    I do realize the original post is asking if this can be done from "within the DAW"
    In the Fast Tracks case...you would have to go into the ASIO tab to get to it.

    My point simply was that it can be done.  How/where/who/why/when is another story.
     
    It probably is time for someone in the industry to come up with some standard, just as VST has become a standard.
     
    Latency is one of the biggest issues people have with DAWs - especially those new to this stuff.  It would serve everyone well if a standard was advanced amongst all the big players.
     
     

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    #23
    BlixYZ
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/20 21:59:32 (permalink)
    If sonar had it, and I was using it, let's say i had a few plugins in the track i was recording to-  While recording, it would bypass those fx and give me a dry signal- THEN, when i playback to hear the take, will it play through the fx?  will i have to unarm the track or switch routing to hear playback with the inserted fx?  cause that would be annoying.

    Because the 2626 has 8 outs, I run my sonar main out to an outboard mixer channel, plus my direct monitoring to an adjacent channel on the board.  Tht gives me a knob for my mix and for my source input, whatever it may be.

    Additionally, the auxes in the profire control panel and remaining outputs allow for several monitor mixes so the drummer, bassist and singer can all have a seperate monitor mix.

    I really like this flexibility.  Would adm be able to pull this off?

    BTW, this thread has been very informative.
    Thanks to those who have provided info and links.

    I agree that an industry standard for monitoring without latency is long overdue.
    #24
    dontletmedrown
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/20 22:13:20 (permalink)
    Yep, Paul from Lynx told me about this a long time ago.  Apparently it was programmed into Sonar 8 but it was pulled out at the last minute.  ASIO DM is very handy for people that use Lynx & RME interfaces so they don't have to futz with the 3rd party mixer. 

    Another thing nobody has mentioned, ASIO DM allows you to leave your buffer set at 1024 (or higher) and still monitor dry with near-zero latency.
    #25
    BlixYZ
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/20 22:33:26 (permalink)
    dontletmedrown,
    Buffer size should never determine monitoring latency.  How could anyone work that way? 
    ASIO DM is not required to acheive this independence.

    Although I must confess, monitoring of soft synth IS affected by buffer size in large projects.  That is annoying.

    But since that requires the DA converters, ASIO DM wont help that situation.  :(
    #26
    koolbass
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/20 23:31:36 (permalink)
    I've had ASIO DM on my RME PCIe Multiface II for a couple years.  I have the ability to control at least 5 TOTALLY DIFFERENT stereo mixes with "zero" latency.  Each musician can monitor himself and the other five instruments, adjust levels and pans, and also adjust what is being sent from the DAW that's already been recorded.  Plus, the singer (or guitarist) can monitor his vocals/guitar with an external reverb unit adding reverb, while actually recording the vocal/guitar dry.

    And because the input signals are split after the A to D but BEFORE they go to the DAW and then the D to A, there is no loss of signal like on an analog mixing console.  Since RME has had this for several years, I would have assumed the other hardware interfaces would have caught up sooner than they have.

    I don't need Sonar to have ASIO DM because it works so well with REME's Cue Mix.

    It took a little bit of time to get my head around how it works, exactly, but once I finally understood it enough to mix on the fly for sessions in my studio, I can't imagine ever working without it.

    Also, since I'm using an i7 980X chip with 12 GBs of ram, if I keep the initial project small enough, I can use my Roland Elec. drum kit to trigger BFD2 samples, using a 32 bit sample rate, and the drummer can hear the drum samples, using midi, at the same latency as hearing those same drums "live" ... in other words the time it takes for a sound to travel from the acoustic drum to his ears, about 2 to 3 milliseconds, I can do electronically in 3.5 milliseconds ...

    We're living in amazing times my friends!

     
    post edited by koolbass - 2011/02/21 01:37:16

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    #27
    carlosagm79
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/21 01:06:48 (permalink)
    BlixYZ


    dontletmedrown,
    Buffer size should never determine monitoring latency.  How could anyone work that way? 
    ASIO DM is not required to acheive this independence.

    Although I must confess, monitoring of soft synth IS affected by buffer size in large projects.  That is annoying.

    But since that requires the DA converters, ASIO DM wont help that situation.  :(


    Why don't you realize that still you don't understand what ASIO DM is?, you are talking and talking about a bunch of other things...
    #28
    brundlefly
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/21 01:13:09 (permalink)
    And also ADM dosnt  bypass anything, it makes 2 streams of data, 1 that goes directly to the outputs being monitored and 1 that goes to the DAW.



    The monitored signal does bypass the A/D/A converters. That's the whole point.


    Most interfaces provide direct monitoring, either by software-firmware switching transistors or by a hardware button making a direct hard-wire connection between the inputs to the outputs (possibly also operating through transistor switching). Either way, it's a direct analog path from input to output with a parallel path to the A/D converters so the host can record it.


    The purpose of ADM is to allow you to do that switching from the host. The standard also allows for passing pan and level settings from the host to the interface so the direct-monitored mix will match the playback mix (less any plugin FX of course).




    #29
    koolbass
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    Re:ASIO Direct Monitoring 2011/02/21 01:55:39 (permalink)



    The monitored signal does bypass the A/D/A converters. That's the whole point.


    Most interfaces provide direct monitoring, either by software-firmware switching transistors or by a hardware button making a direct hard-wire connection between the inputs to the outputs (possibly also operating through transistor switching). Either way, it's a direct analog path from input to output with a parallel path to the A/D converters so the host can record it.


    The purpose of ADM is to allow you to do that switching from the host. The standard also allows for passing pan and level settings from the host to the interface so the direct-monitored mix will match the playback mix (less any plugin FX of course).



    Most interfaces provide direct monitoring, either by software-firmware switching transistors or by a hardware button making a direct hard-wire connection between the inputs to the outputs (possibly also operating through transistor switching). Either way, it's a direct analog path from input to output with a parallel path to the A/D converters so the host can record it. The purpose of ADM is to allow you to do that switching from the host. The standard also allows for passing pan and level settings from the host to the interface so the direct-monitored mix will match the playback mix (less any plugin FX of course).



    What you're describing is NOT ASIO DIRECT MONITORING but just "mor-me" monitoring of the analog audio signal.  RME uses, what they call, TRUE ASIO DIRECT MONITORING with what they call "TotalMix" and MOTU has something similar called "Cue Mix".  It actually takes the signal, ONLY if you're using ASIO mode, and converts the audio signal to digital.  At that point it copies the digital information, and sends the exact same info TWO different places.  Packet one goes to the DAW and packet two, which is identical, goes to the digital to analog OUT converters.  BUT, with RME, you have the ability to mix and blend ALL of your audio in and outs any way you want.  So, in the case of my particular interface, you can have 5 different musicians with 5 different stereo mixes, hearing oneself and the other musicians, and all have ZERO latency monitoring, mixed along with whatever they want being sent from the DAW, be it a click or pre-recorded material.  When you're also monitoring pre-recorded material, you can use the 4 different sends along with the master out to have five DIFFERENT mixes/levels for each musician of the pre-recorded music along with the live music.

    What I've just described is not simple to set up, but RME and Sonar both allowing the saving of templates, so, after certain set-ups, it's easy to save and recall.

    If you don't understand what I'm talking about, I suggest going to the RME site and look up Asio Direct monitoring.  Once you actually understand and use it, it's not so complicated.  And one could NEVER have true zero latency monitoring from a DAW, because you have the time it takes to travel to interface, convert from analog to digital, travel time to cpu, numbers crunching, sending back to interface, converted from digital to analog, and then sent through to speakers.  True Asio Direct Monitoring is into interface, convert analog to digital, software mix within interface hardware and immediately back out through the digital to analog converters.
    post edited by koolbass - 2011/02/21 02:03:01

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    Lance "koolbass" Martin
     
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