dontletmedrown

10Ten


Is anyone's audio engine worse than Sonar at this point?

I wanted to chime in on this point here.  I've been using PT9 since its release and I can say that on my i7 DAW that Sonar's actual audio engine DOES outperform it.  To be more specific, I would say that VST processing outperforms RTAS (PT plugin format) by leaps and bounds.  I'm able to use softsynths and high-cpu plugins at lower latency in Sonar than I can in PT. 

Now when it comes to everything else (organization, speed, grouping, editing) PT wipes the floor with it IMO, YMMV.  Still though-- the softsynth and overall plugin performance with Sonar is an undeniable win.  Now I understand why I've met so many composers that use a combination of PT+DP, PT+Logic, etc.  PT, just doesn't do well in the softsynth arena and I think most PT user would agree with that.  When I need to record a band, it's PT time for me.  If I need to compose a score, I'm going to use Sonar, then export when I'm finished.  It's a little annoying to need two different programs, but I love them both, so that's how it has to be (for me).
 
About James (eratu), remember that the guy is not dying, he's just switching software and I'm sure he's still easy to get ahold of for chatting and other info.  I have moved on too, but I'm still reading for my own entertainment and to help people.  Point being-- nothing has changed.  This is the net and even though we have different needs, we're all still here and we don't have to hate each other just because we prefer different software.  Even though PT works better for what I need, Sonar is still special to me and I'll always wish Cake the best of luck.
 
Have a great weekend everyone!

I want to add a comment to this as well.
 
I think the two areas Sonar is lacking in as compared to almost any other DAW is "gapless audio engine" -- specifically meaning being able to insert plugins WHILE in playback mode without everything stopping (pausing really) until the plugin loads.   This is a HUGE workflow inhibitor and has been for as long as I've been a Sonar user (7 years).
 
Once you experience gapless audio with regard to the above statement, it's hard to imagine why Sonar can't do it.
 
There are areas Sonar truly excels at (in my opinion) and a few where it is WAY FAR BEHIND the rest.
 
But once you have gapless audio it's hard not to want it always. 
  
 The other 'main' area for me and many others (from what I gather) is automation.
 
In X1 it's definitely a BIG step forward, but still not quite as elegant as I see in other hosts.
 
I will also add one other thing (yeah we've all been over this countless times lol)  and that is the way it handles effects in chains.  Again, a BIG improvement in X1 but far behind some other hosts, imho.
 
 

I agree with a lot of that, Tim.
 
But I think "X1B" will be quite a telling thing as well.
 
IF X1B is just a minor little tweaker, kind of like how X1A was, I think Cakewalk is going to be in for a very difficult year.
 
If, however, X1b REALLY does sooth the beast, so to speak, then I would assert CW is in for a very good year.
 
Speculation on my part, of course -- since we can't really know what's going on in the market without knowing the sales figures; but still -- based on what I'm seeing all over the internet (meaning those areas I either read or participate in) is that this is, in fact, a real important moment in time for CW and its flagship product.
 
I'm seeing a LOT more people explore the other hosts (quite visibly on the other hosts' forums) then I am seeing the other hosts customer base coming over to Sonar.
 
That's not a scientific study, of course; but anecdotally, it's pretty interesting.
 
 

timboe


- if people are going to move - and for the record I'm not and havent and will " ride out the storm "  [ ala Truman in his boat at the end of the movie - couldnt resist  -sorry ]   the only sensible move is really  PT9 - its hardware-free-now, most of its remaining restrictions would not impact a small-medium-home studio and it will probably go  X64  sooner rather than later if  you look at the forum  " chatter " - I can see no point in  if  you are going to move from X1, going to another non-industry-standard program that is still  *very*  immatrue - ala Studio One / Reaper  etc....

I believe there are other solid contenders available for the PC platform: Steinberg Cubase, Magix Samplitude and Ableton Live (depending on what people are doing). And of course there are the Mac only contenders too.

- given the   " bruuhahhah "  surrounding  X1, I am *very*  surprised we have not seen an Open Letter  from Greg Henershott to us - his loyal, paying-long-time-customers ... something like  [ I think it was ]  Abelton did  12 - 18 months ago - I remeber at the time that move  (a)  was almost universlly well recieved in the DAW world  (b)  meant the world to their exisiting client base  and (c)  has done nothing other than even further strnghten their product and client loyalty.

Yes I think Cakewalk's communication is very bad and has been for a while. James and Josee know I was very disappointed we never received an official acknowledgement to the Workflow letter last year. (End 2009 actually). I didn't receive an acknowledgement for my Suggestions List (which amounts to eight pages of suggestions if you copy and paste the list into word).

Sure we got unofficial reactions from, amongst others, Brandon but seriously, how much effort is it for someone higher up the chain to write a little thank you? It costs nothing and creates a huge amount of loyalty and goodwill. This is corporate mismanagement and incompetence on a grievous scale.

This neither gives me much hope for Sonar's future or much inclination to invest any time in making any more suggestions.

- the thing that has got me the most over the X1 release has not been the user-firestorm - that was probably to be expected given such a big change -  it has not been the responses by CW personel on the forums which have been [ as ususal ]  supremely helpful and courteous - even when idiots like me go over-the-top ]   - rather it has been the somewhat  bemused / surprised  "uinder-tone"  that we - the customers - have not  " got "  or  " undertood "  what they have done with X1 - almost like they know what is best for us  -  this I have never seen before with CW and it is something perhaps a note from Greg H could  [ stop ]  and  address / exlpain / put-our-minds-at-ease  etc....

I don't know how much Greg H does or doesn't control the company any more but either way, there are some very bad decisions being made somewhere... bad communication amongst others.

The really annoying part is that you can really see that by  X3 or X4 this new DAW really could be the " gold standard "  [ even if it isnt the industry standard ]   but if  too many are pushed-over-the-tolerance-line  along the way, it will be a mute point.

It could be indeed... everything is possible. There are enough good ideas in Sonar to work with but deep down something at Cakewalk has to change for that to be possible. It starts with much better design and implementation of new features and continues with much better quality control and bug fixing. I don't know if the current Cakewalk staff responsible for developing Sonar are capable of that within the parameters they work in. (To translate: Either they are simply not capable of it or they are not given enough time and resources by their managers or their managers are putting impossible demands on them. The end result is a dysfunctional technology company as far as the quality of the products is concerned).

Bring on X1b  and  X1c  and  X1d.

Yes indeed. *semi enthusiastic cheer*

Like I've said before the  BEST  way for CW to re-steer this ship is that by the time  X2 is released,  that most 8.5.3 bugs / issues are resolved and most X1 bugs / issues are resolved.

Hear hear! *fully enthusiastic cheer*

UnderTow

mudgel

How are you finding PT 9? Ar you using PT 9 as in the $599 version or have you added the Complete Production Tookit which is what I see is needed to get near SONAR features?

My understanding is that the CPTK 2 takes PT9 closer to Nuendo, not SONAR.  It adds more post production tools (i.e. VCA groups, video editing, advanced automation and audio editing, 7.1 surround mixing, etc), which SONAR doesn't even have.  What SONAR has over PT9 is better MIDI capabilities, Clip FX, Fast Bounce (though there is a work-around for this) and Freeze capabilities.  Pro Tools 9 has much better tools for audio work though, even in the standard version, and this is where it beats SONAR hands down.  This includes better automation (even without the CPTK), video support with frame accuracy, file management with rating capabilities, a Beat Detective that actually works (what a concept :-P), better grouping features, more flexible routing, and more.
 
I heard the MIDI in Pro Tools is well thought out.  It's just not as advanced as it is in SONAR.  That's why a lot of composers use Logic/Cubase/SONAR for composing, and then they take that to Pro Tools for mixing and post work.
 
Please, someone correct me if I'm wrong. :-)

In general we are a really impatient spoiled society. 
 
There is suppose to be a release in February.  That is weeks from now.  I think we ought to wait for the update (even if it is in March).
 
Meanwhile, no one is out a ton of money.  Cakewalk has acted in good faith - there is no evidence to the contrary.  They seem really open to criticism on this Board, which I think is really classy.
 
So let us all show some "class" and patience.
 
I think enough comments and concerns have been presented to Cakewalk to keep them busy for a while.
 
My 2 cents.
 
I do not want to appear holier than thou, because sometimes I get frustrated with the waits as well.

When I think my musical life is trying and difficult - it is nice to have a place to come to and recognize there are others with bigger troubles or more time to waste than I.
 
I have chosen to wait patiently for X1b, but until then I'm making music with X1a

Thanks CW for the continual improvements - change is hard and those choosing to change with the change should know from past experience change takes time.  Let us know when X1b is coming, until then make it work people, make it work....

double post

UnderTow

timboe

- given the   " bruuhahhah "  surrounding  X1, I am *very*  surprised we have not seen an Open Letter  from Greg Henershott to us - his loyal, paying-long-time-customers ... something like  [ I think it was ]  Abelton did  12 - 18 months ago - I remeber at the time that move  (a)  was almost universlly well recieved in the DAW world  (b)  meant the world to their exisiting client base  and (c)  has done nothing other than even further strnghten their product and client loyalty.

Yes I think Cakewalk's communication is very bad and has been for a while. James and Josee know I was very disappointed we never received an official acknowledgement to the Workflow letter last year. (End 2009 actually). I didn't receive an acknowledgement for my Suggestions List (which amounts to eight pages of suggestions if you copy and paste the list into word).

Sure we got unofficial reactions from, amongst others, Brandon but seriously, how much effort is it for someone higher up the chain to write a little thank you? It costs nothing and creates a huge amount of loyalty and goodwill. This is corporate mismanagement and incompetence on a grievous scale.

This neither gives me much hope for Sonar's future or much inclination to invest any time in making any more suggestions.

- the thing that has got me the most over the X1 release has not been the user-firestorm - that was probably to be expected given such a big change -  it has not been the responses by CW personel on the forums which have been [ as ususal ]  supremely helpful and courteous - even when idiots like me go over-the-top ]   - rather it has been the somewhat  bemused / surprised  "uinder-tone"  that we - the customers - have not  " got "  or  " undertood "  what they have done with X1 - almost like they know what is best for us  -  this I have never seen before with CW and it is something perhaps a note from Greg H could  [ stop ]  and  address / exlpain / put-our-minds-at-ease  etc....

I don't know how much Greg H does or doesn't control the company any more but either way, there are some very bad decisions being made somewhere... bad communication amongst others.

The really annoying part is that you can really see that by  X3 or X4 this new DAW really could be the " gold standard "  [ even if it isnt the industry standard ]   but if  too many are pushed-over-the-tolerance-line  along the way, it will be a mute point.

It could be indeed... everything is possible. There are enough good ideas in Sonar to work with but deep down something at Cakewalk has to change for that to be possible. It starts with much better design and implementation of new features and continues with much better quality control and bug fixing. I don't know if the current Cakewalk staff responsible for developing Sonar are capable of that within the parameters they work in. (To translate: Either they are simply not capable of it or they are not given enough time and resources by their managers or their managers are putting impossible demands on them. The end result is a dysfunctional technology company as far as the quality of the products is concerned).

Bring on X1b  and  X1c  and  X1d.

Yes indeed. *semi enthusiastic cheer*

Like I've said before the  BEST  way for CW to re-steer this ship is that by the time  X2 is released,  that most 8.5.3 bugs / issues are resolved and most X1 bugs / issues are resolved.

Hear hear! *fully enthusiastic cheer*

UnderTow

Against that backdrop all the while these issues we see here bumble on year on year without any improvement. 

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tt.aspx?forumid=38

The worst eStore I've ever come across period!

Undertow, that you still haven't received a mere thank you note for your 'home-grown' market research project which I know that a few of you put in not so insignificant amounts of effort, just leaves me bereft of any hope that anything of import actually will change.  Aside that is from a total melt-down and the re-emergence of a new company from the ruins.  The reality is this company is far more invested in 'saving face' than it is acknowledging customers.

And yet we see pictures of the good guys and reports from NAMM of them really taking into consideration the thoughts of the Cakewalk regulars there and listening hard.  How can this be?  And if they really were that interested checking this forum out would explain anything they happened to be curious about.

The endemic nature of the whole malaise is beautifully summed up in pwal's post further up the page where he agrees that communication could be better and the forum software obliges with yet another 'double post'.

I used to be proud of my funky Sonar DAW that nobody else seems to have cared much about or even heard too much of, these days mostly I'm embarrassed even to mention it, and if this company was a horse my recommendation would be that it was shot for humane reasons.

And yet I'm still here in some vain hope that the real underlying issues will get resolved and the entire Cakewalk ownership experience will start to improve, such is, either my complete insanity or my underlying belief in Sonar as a product.

As for which thing it is, I'm going to ask my therapist before I commit to a decision.

That fact that any of my customers were less than happy would be a major concern for me, those posters here that have posted details exactly describing the reasons for being less than satisfied I'd think were more than worthy of acknowledgement yet many here are being ignored or at least going unacknowledged.

I find that inexcusable.

btw Cakewalk I notice there's a guy up in the eStore just now that you've acknowledged you messed up over a month ago, he still hasn't got satisfaction because he's back again. I don't work for CS even but I managed to notice.  He's probably thrown a curve however as he's tucked away hiding in the curiously titled forum called eStore.

The worst eStore I've ever come across period!

 
+ 1000
 
More like going to a bad dentist lol