CW does some of that but as long as I've seen it - 3 years - the user is expected to become a plumber to get a shower. 


I wonder if you're being entirely fair, considering the relative nature of these comparisons.  Look at a program as complex as Photoshop as a point of reference.  What analogy would you draw for this program?  Quantum Theorist to use a calculator?  Or list programs and give them all an analogy so we can get an idea of what sort of scale you're using.  So for example;


1.  Cubase - automechanic to drive a car
2.  Reaper - lumber jack to use a pencil (lol).

+ 100000000 ... whatever.

I fully concur with you eratu !  I have spent the best part a week trying to get something going - there are just too many things NOT happening as they should.  We certainly are part of a public beta, or so it seems.
I just hope that the management at Cakewalk (and I don't mean just the IT folks) get to understand that this is not the future, as sooner or later a lot of us will be "jumpin' ship".

Thanks for your honesty eratu.  We all respect that.

I have some broad questions here as a long time user of Cakewalk products. I hope to be able, through the more knowledgeable users, get some sort of context for these criticisms of Cakewalk.

1.  Is the X1 release more problematic than similar releases by other software companies?
2.  If it is, by what margin?
3.  How is this margin accounted for? 
4.  Is the margin intolerable?

For those of you for whom this relationship and expense have been an apparent exercise in futility, isn't it your fault for not recognizing that it wasn't going to work out?  Forgive the analogy, but let me take it a bit further.  There seems to be an implication, by virtue of the venting, that Cakewalk is somehow a dubious, sinister company attempting to bilk people out of their money.  Like some cheating, lying lover.  That I can even use this analogy and have it be meaningful makes this whole thing seem comical.  I'm going to drink heavily tonight and sob over my old versions of Sonar.  

Mike,
So is Cakewalk being measured against it's own standards and previous releases?  Or is X1 an anomaly in the software world for it's intolerable design flaws?  If it isn't, I'm confused by this romanticized hurt and outrage.  I can barely hold back from laughing as I type this.

nighthadfallen


Mike,
So is Cakewalk being measured against it's own standards and previous releases?  Or is X1 an anomaly in the software world for it's intolerable design flaws?  If it isn't, I'm confused by this romanticized hurt and outrage.  I can barely hold back from laughing as I type this.

I believe it's a lot more buggy than average, and the release certainly seems premature. But I do enjoy the new features and I like they direction they're heading in (shoot me for not being a 'pro', what's Ripple editing BTW?) so I'm expecting a bright future!
 
What was SONAR 1 like? I got on board with S2 and that worked very well for my purposes. Did it take them a whole version to get it together back then?
 
Sven

I'm really disappointed. I was like "hey, it's new software and I knew what I was getting into blah blah" but being afraid to install a patch that is supposed to fix allot of the minor annoyances isn't good.

That coupled with this new weird CPU meter confusion (look at my specs below, should I be having cpu issues on this beast??) and the x86 audio stoppage thing has this on my hobby list and thinking it's not going to be "go to" for a while.

I think I'm over it for a while.....

SvenArne
what's Ripple editing BTW?) so I'm expecting a bright future! 

Ripple editing basically treats object boundaries as the only constant (or "gravity") in a timeline, so adding, deleting, or copying clips stacks them butt up against each other (more or less). This can be extremely useful for a variety of projects and can make arranging lightning fast.

The fun part of some of these bugs is realizing that's what it is. You might try using Audiosnap 9 or 10 times before you realize something is amiss, and then another 10 times before you realize it's NOT you. Luckily we're starting to get some good feedback about some of these issues now.

That's why chopping through all the ranting is important right now, so we can separate and verify (and validate our sanity) all the user experiences.

Sadly, with all the ranting it doesn't exactly encourage Cake to be frank when discussing these issues. 

A wonderfully positive post that forgets one little thing X1 plus X1a doesn't seem to WORK

mike_mccue
"A ripple edit means moving an edit point and causing the rest of the timeline to move the same amount to compensate. To perform a ripple edit, select the ripple edit tool (pictured right) from the tool panel. Position the mouse at the edit point in the timeline and drag left or right" 

Well, that's a much more technically correct way to say it. I don't know how Premiere implements it, but basically adding or deleting data makes the rest of the data slide one way or the other accommodate it. In SONAR terms, it's like having "delete hole" always on for even clip editing (at least in the subtractive sense).


Sounds like in Premiere you can arbitrarily slide whole global sections of the project around, which is cool!

...wicked

mike_mccue
"A ripple edit means moving an edit point and causing the rest of the timeline to move the same amount to compensate. To perform a ripple edit, select the ripple edit tool (pictured right) from the tool panel. Position the mouse at the edit point in the timeline and drag left or right" 

Well, that's a much more technically correct way to say it. I don't know how Premiere implements it, but basically adding or deleting data makes the rest of the data slide one way or the other accommodate it. In SONAR terms, it's like having "delete hole" always on for even clip editing (at least in the subtractive sense).


Sounds like in Premiere you can arbitrarily slide whole global sections of the project around, which is cool!

The tool makes a lot more sense to me when editing video... I'm not sure of the application in music because music is usually tempo based and filling holes may not make sense in that context. Of course ripple editing is fantastic when working on a voice over or narration of some sort.

It basically saves you from having to zoom out and select all your clips and then zooming back in so that you can see where you are sliding your clips.

It's a great tool when it's the right tool for the job.

best regards,
mike

eratu


UPDATE: 12-21-2010

I am seriously upset about the Sonar X1a patch. By now, many of you have seen this first patch, and some know that there are confirmed issues with this patch and Lynx (and apparently some other drivers too, from what I have read). At least 4-5 people have confirmed it with Lynx in various threads (here's one thread: http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?&m=2168575 ), and it has been reported to Cakewalk via various channels, including the problem reporter. I'm so upset, I'm not even bothering installing X1a at this point.

As a Lynx owner, this one hits me directly in the face, and I'm extremely disappointed right now. This patch was supposed to help, not break things!

Sure, someone might jump in and blame Lynx, that's the easy out. But why was it working with X1? Why does it work flawlessly with other DAW apps (I won't even bother to list them)? And why in the blazes would the X1a patch break compatibility? How did this patch make it through quality control? What are the testing procedures at Cakewalk? And no, please don't tell me workarounds like using WDM or sticking with X1. And please don't tell me to waste my time installing X1a to confirm myself when it's been confirmed multiple times by others, and even that it has been reported several times to Cakewalk and that "this is a priority" to get this fixed. 

Yes, if it sounds like I'm upset by this, I am. This patch should never have been released without much more stringent quality control protocols... and frankly it makes me look at the main X1 release with a new eye. This is just not acceptable to me.

I really gave it my best, guys -- I gave it my most even-handed, honest, fair, impartial, open-minded run. I paid for X1 with a very optimistic attitude, and I publicly recognized its very positive steps forward, despite its rough edges. But this X1a patch is too much for me, symbolically. This patch exceeded the maximum threshold for what quality control issues are allowed in a ".0" product and patch.

I'm sorry, folks, but there's only so much I can take.

This thread started as "An honest, sincere take on SONAR X1 from a long-time Cakewalk supporter" and I am compelled, for my own integrity, to post what I've posted right now.... honestly and sincerely.

I hope the good folks at Cakewalk -- and they are good folks, I like them and will always like them -- can really look at this thread and figure out a solid way forward. Frankly, features don't matter AT ALL, if the core has issues like this. X1 in general maxed out the limits of rough edges in my book. This release cycle was indeed rough -- perhaps too rough -- but the patch is just over the top, and whatever forces are driving the quality control side of things at Cakewalk need to make sure they TAKE A HECK OF A LOT MORE TIME to bake things thoroughly and completely. It's one thing that a program has bugs, folks, but this... this is too much for me.

That's all I have to say. Again, this is one person, two bits, and nothing more.

+ 10.
 
I've decided to sit this one out for awhile.  I'm not mad, frankly, I'm more sad.   But I also have to go back to 8.5.3 because, in simple terms, it works.
 
 

UPDATE: 12-23-2010

For the record and to keep things straight and clear in this thread, Cakewalk has released a hotfix for the Lynx issue. Noel took personal responsibility for it in the following thread: http://forum.cakewalk.com...px?high=&m=2168575 (see post #50 on page 2). In all fairness, that has to be considered a rapid, open response and resolution. It's unfortunate that it happened in the first place, but I'm glad to see Cakewalk taking ownership and addressing this issue right away, and hope that means upcoming updates (i.e.: X1b) will go much more smoothly! :) Take care everyone, hope you have a great couple of weeks!

Update 1/20/2011 --

As a final, extremely lengthy :) follow-up to this thread, which I started with the most sincere of intentions, I wanted to wrap things up to make this thread complete with my experience with X1. I've refrained from posting in the forum until I had more perspective and time to think about it, and for what it's worth, this is what I've decided. I am not trying to promote this course of action to anyone else. Your mileage may vary... and everyone works differently and has different needs.

1) I have uninstalled Sonar X1.

2) I have reverted back to Sonar 8.5.3 for my legacy Sonar projects on my old DAW.

3) As some of you know, I use other DAW software besides Sonar, which I am now focusing on until there is a major new release from Cakewalk, which I will happily look at in the future. I will check back in with X2/X3 and see where Cakewalk is going. 

4) I don't regret upgrading to X1 but now realize that we have just gone on different paths for now. There is nothing personal, no upset feelings against Cakewalk or anyone here in the forum.

5) I continue to be optimistic about Cakewalk and the X series, but again, I'm going in a different direction.

Why? 

As much as I like the Cakewalk team -- even more than like, I think they're great guys and I owe them all a drink, especially Greg, who has been a DAW icon for me over the years -- and as much as I like Sonar itself and am thrilled with the music I've been able to produce with it, Sonar X1 has ultimately been a huge disappointment for me, personally. I say this with respect for Cakewalk, and hope the positive intent of my posts come across. I've supported and promoted Cakewalk to many people, not just for the software, but for the developers and community. I've converted friends to it, defended it, and interacted here and in other forums to support it. I've mentioned it at conferences I've presented at, even demoed it to other musicians and audio producers. 

But for now, it's clear to me that we're on different paths. For a brief time, I will admit I was pretty upset at how poorly my experience with X1 went, and kept mostly quiet about it as I worked through issues with X1, but then I understood it was a matter of being on different paths. If it makes any difference to Cakewalk to read this, I hope they understand that there's no anger, no animosity towards anyone, just plain facts of life.

Why bother saying anything at all, isn't it a bit dramatic?

:)

Hopefully this will not come across as dramatic, I definitely don't mean it that way. After all, this is just software. :) So please ignore this long post if it bugs you. I'm just wrapping up this thread with my final thoughts on X1 and perhaps it may (or may not) have any impact on Cakewalk regarding customers like me -- who are clearly in the minority. A fact with which I have come to terms. Cakewalk's strategy is just simply not focused on the type of user that includes me. No big deal, I respect that.

I spent plenty of time with X1, and hope Cakewalk understands why I can't use X1 any more, because I think there are some serious issues with this whole release that I think Cakewalk could avoid for the next round, regardless of customers who have specific needs like mine.

Basically, the whole Sonar X1 release has been extremely frustrating to me. While I stand by my initial assessment about the general direction of X1 -- that it is really excellent and filled with potential -- I have been very surprised by the incompleteness and lack of polish in this release. Not to mention bugs. Mostly minor, but I have personally experienced numerous issues I had to find workarounds for -- there's no point in rehashing them. Many other threads have gone into detail, and I've been biting my tongue as I've run into some of the same things, holding back my own growing frustration, until I decided to uninstall X1. No doubt I'll be accused by some of being short on details in this long post. :) 

[ As an aside: There is no shortage of forum users lately that will accuse anyone in this forum of anything, no matter how sincere and well-intentioned one might be. Hopefully that's a temporary trend that will pass in this otherwise excellent forum. My post here is not intended to be the repository of the bugs in X1. Suffice it to say that if you know me, then you know I've been a staunch Cake supporter and also an honest and hopefully fair critic at times, and I don't need to sit here and list every little issue with Sonar X1. If you have a perfect X1 installation, congrats, but there are many people like me who did not have a smooth experience by any stretch of the imagination. ]

Fortunately, Cakewalk is going to release X1b soon which will surely help with those types of issues. However, it troubles me how rough this release was for me, personally. I was particularly upset about a show-stopping issue when Lynx support was screwed up with the X1a patch. That might have been the straw the broke the camel's back for me. Yes, Cakewalk released a hotfix very quickly (thank you!) but it really surprised me something like that could ever slip through... I'm a Lynx user, so it was very unfortunate. It underscores a release cycle that -- to me -- was several months too fast. I wish they would have spent more time on the whole product with more meticulous attention to such details before ever releasing anything. 


Additionally, I have had enough time to think about the general philosophy of Cakewalk developers and realized that at least right now, it's not the ideal fit for what I need to do with my work. While I appreciate the pressures and market forces that drive feature development at Cakewalk, my own work has diverged from the path that Cakewalk seems to have chosen... no disrespect intended whatsoever. I admit I'm probably in the minority on this one.

For example, and very glaringly, I am disheartened that Cakewalk has not invested in better video support by now. I thought it was a non sequitur but apparently I was wrong. I think I understand the reasons now, but that doesn't change that I need better video support, yesterday. Even in the best of circumstances (if X1 were 100% stable for me, which it was not), I STILL have to use another DAW app for the video scoring and post work I'm involved with. This is a major limitation for me, personally. I understand it may be more complex to add that support, and Sonar is not a "post" application, but it really has become a roadblock for me to work the way I personally need to. I may be in the smallest minority on this, but I do hope this is remedied soon for other users. I know there are other people that would benefit from enhanced video support in Sonar. From the forum exchanges, it seems that better video support is indeed coming to Sonar, but not any time soon. I've needed it for a while, so on this issue alone, my usage of Sonar has dropped off dramatically.

As another example, I was disheartened that automation/envelope lanes seem such a low priority with Cakewalk, or that there seems to be resistance to add that feature. In a recent, respectful exchange on the forum with a Cakewalk developer, it just seemed to me that Cakewalk didn't appreciate how important that was, and couldn't understand the clear inherent advantages of it over the now-improved, but still limited system. Again, I may be in the minority on this, and that's fine. 

After reflecting on one Cakewalk developer's comment to me to "be careful what you wish for," I finally realized that Cakewalk's direction is really not the direction I need to go. That type of feature -- automation/envelop lanes, for example -- should be the bare *minimum* of the feature, not something that I might regret "wishing" for. One can see the clear advantages of it already in other DAW apps, where in some cases, on top of envelope lanes, there are already some really wonderful automation tweaking tools that allow you to warp/scale envelopes creatively, which just goes to show what the next level of envelop editing should be about. I gave the new filters approach a chance, and it just doesn't match up for ease of use and flexibility for me. Someone who does not see the advantages of lanes is simply on a different page than I am. So how this most basic feature is something I might regret wishing for, honestly perplexes me... in fact, I DO wish for it, want it, ask for it, and already use lanes in other DAW apps, and can't wait to use creative scaling tools and other envelope innovations. Those are tools I'm willing to pay for. Apparently, that is nothing more than a "bleh" feature for some people, and I respect that's their point of view. But as for me, I want that type of feature. 

I do understand Cakewalk's decision not to implement lanes, if there is no demand (other than a few guys like me) and if it takes away from other much more requested features. It just goes to support the idea that Cakewalk and I are simply moving in different directions. Again, no problem.

There are many other examples, but the two above highlight how my path is different than Cakewalk's path for now.  

Of course Cakewalk's resources are limited so they have tough decisions to make and have to balance out hundreds of feature requests... so again, it's the target customer(s) that Cakewalk is shooting for that helps them decide what features to implement, and I'm clearly on the fringes of that target market now. 

Finally, and maybe what troubles me the most about Sonar X1 is really about fit and finish. Some of the other items above are about direction -- which I clearly am not on the Sonar path for now. But fit and finish speaks to a bigger issue that really has bugged me about X1. I have no doubt that X1 will reach its potential at some point in the future, but this release has highlighted for me how important it is to release a solid, stable, polished product, with each feature extremely well-implemented, even at the expense of adding more "whiz-bang" features. This was the roughest launch of any DAW product I've personally experienced, and I've been through some doozies with other companies. I really wish Cakewalk would have taken more time with X1, dug in deeper, and released something without so many loose ends. My sense is that they might have known this, and it's reflected in the jaw-droppingly low update price. Maybe I'm wrong on that, but for the record, I'm more than happy paying more for something that is more thoroughly baked. I'm guessing some other pressures pushed them to release this before it was ready, but I'll never know. 

Yes, it is a very tough market right now, so I can't fault them for feeling the market pressure, but for me, it pushed the line too far. I won't go so far as to say X1 was a beta release, but I don't recall ever having so many rough spots with a DAW on first release. It has definitely caused me to think twice (or THRICE, as Conan would say) about buying X2 or X3 on day 1 or even day 90. But not only that, the whole balance of the product was off to me... features that were not as finished and fully fleshed out as they could be... 

For example, while Skylight sets up Sonar for the next generation, I would have far preferred them to focus more on the core features and refine them, improving existing, critical features like video support, various editing tools/features (i.e. ripple editing), envelope lanes, notation, etc. Maybe that will come with X2 or X3, but this is exactly why I think X1 was premature. Skylight is good, for sure, but those other things need much more attention, and already needed much more attention for a while. 

It can be argued that Cakewalk did provide improvements in those general areas, like the smart tool, fx chains, envelope filters, etc... and those are indeed helpful, but come on, I shouldn't have to argue the merits of envelope lanes and better video support at this point. Why spend any time at all on envelope filters, for example, and claim that's an innovative feature, when competitors are moving beyond lanes now? Again, I refer you to the envelope warping/transforming tools, not to mention other innovations with automation and envelopes showing up in other DAWs now. Okay, so in the end, there's clearly not enough demand for that type of feature from the majority of Sonar customers, so again, it just points to a different path for me. That is obviously fine, and there are no hard feelings about it.

Anyway, we could go on and on, back and forth, but in the end I made the decision to skip X1 (even though I already bought it, installed it, tested it, worked with it, struggled with it, then uninstalled it when I had to get work done) for the reasons stated above. Again, there are no hard feelings, and I recognize my needs, usage patterns and success with X1 will be different than other people. I want to reiterate my respect for the Cakewalk team, and wish them and all Cakewalk users the best. I'll be seeing you around, of course. We're all part of the same broader community as well, and this is a small world. :) I am still a Cakewalk customer, but just planning to sit this one out. 

Best Regards,
Eratu

Thank you eratu.

I hope the names from the company that appeared when you first posted are as keen to comment on your views now.

Like you say Sonar is 'just software' by yet another vendor, if anyone had any other idea about that before they oughtn't now.

That should take some pressure off everyone.  Except those that feel they are $ out of pocket of course.