Eratu,

Very nice post, as usual.  You have perfectly expressed my feelings about SONAR X1.  I too feel like Cakewalk is headed in a different direction that doesn't involve me either.  The features that I want or need are half-baked in SONAR, yet they work perfectly in other DAWs.  I know there are bugs in those DAWs as well.  But I doubt ANY of them is as buggy as SONAR X1 is at the moment.  Like you said, this is probably the worst DAW release we've seen yet.  Cakewalk should've taken their sweet time to get this as polished as possible instead of rushing it like they did.  Sadly, we live in a capitalist world, where money speaks louder than words.  There's a limit though, and Cakewalk crossed it for me.

Cakewalk should've spent all their resources fixing bugs and improving existing features instead of working on a new GUI.  I like Skylight, except that it came out a bit prematurely.  To be honest, I was really excited about it at first, with all the workflow improvements potentials that it has.  But then I learned that all the previous bugs where still there (Audio Snap being one of the features I was looking forward to be able to use without issues), and that's when I started getting disappointed by this release.  Add to the mix the overall instability, new bugs, added half-baked features & plugins, the same yearly cycle, etc.  It just got old for me, so I'm moving on.  Thankfully, there are many other choices in the market, with great features and a better audio engine than SONAR (sorry, but this is the plain truth).  I'll also keep an eye on Cakewalk's future releases but, considering the responses we've gotten over the features you and I really need, I doubt I will come back to purchase another SONAR version for a while.  The other guys are in a whole other level when it comes to the features I find important in a DAW, and I know it's gonna be a while before Cakewalk catches up to them.

Well, I have to head out now.  Just came here to show my agreement with your comments :-)


Take care my friend!
 
 
 
 

HI Eratu,

Well said.  I too have uninstalled X1a and am currently trying out other options.  I was initially very excited with the changes but the bugginess of the current release made me re-evaluate my choice of platform.  All the workarounds that I've developed for prior versions have started to not make sense to me, especially since with X1, I'd have to learn a whole new way of working.

I hope that X2 is better, but in the meantime, I am looking elsewhere.

I wish the developers best of luck in developing the potential that is Sonar.

Thanks, guys! I'm actually a little relieved. I had to ask myself a couple of weeks ago, "why am I feeling so stressed out about this?" And then I finally realized... it's just software after all. And honestly, it's all amazing, if you think about it. 10 years ago what we can do today would have been wishful science fiction. So in the end, I'm just feeling lucky to have such amazing tools to use.

Whatever frustration I might have felt with X1 doesn't change the fact that I like the Cakewalk developers as people and have great relationships with many people I've met here in this forum. In fact, I am grateful this forum has fostered an atmosphere where some real-world friendships have developed. There are some really stellar people here for whom I have the greatest respect! :)

And I do wish Cakewalk the best. I will certainly be paying attention to future developments, and like I said, I don't regret upgrading to X1 -- there's no bitterness at all. I'm genuinely happy for those people that are getting along well with it.

@spanky - I hope you know from my post that I respect that you have a different point of view. If you don't think automation lanes are important, no problem, there are many people that will agree with you. I figure I have been on the fringes of Sonar's target market for a while, and I totally agree they can't and shouldn't heed our every whim and desire. It's a tough job they have, no doubt, to balance all of our requests and follow their own vision as well. I do believe they're good, talented folks who want to make the best possible product, and they do care about it passionately. Like I mentioned before, it's just that our paths are different for now.

Now, did I mention that last post was my last post here for a while? Not sure if I did. But I don't want to bug people with my point of view on this any more. I'll be seeing you guys around, and wish you all the best.

mike_mccue


 Automation lanes seems like an ideal example of a feature that any user who uses automation (heck why bother using a computer mixer if you don't want to exploit automation) can enjoy while it can also easily be turned off by anyone who doesn't want to use lanes.

I absolutely *LOVE* automation lanes.  I hit "E" and all my envelopes are displayed, each one in it's own lane and ready for editing.  I hit "E" again, and they all become hidden again.

eratu, you sure use your words good.

I'm pretty much in agreement with all you've said, with the caveat that I'm forging ahead with X1.  But everything you said about video support, automation lanes (which isn't necessarily about automation lanes, but about automation usability), notation, and especially fit and finish, is something that I wish I could articulate as well as you.

A huge troubling aspect of this release to me was the complete disconnect between the goal of "Work flow, and Daw 2.0" and the UI of the ProChannel. The sonitus plugins have fantastic UIs that make working with them very simple. The ProChannel sounds great but is trying to imitate a hardware UI which is right up there on the list of user interface blunders. I find the ProChannel so awkward to work with, I doubt that I'll ever use it. I'll just use my equally good sounding plugins with better UIs instead.

Anyway, I'm sticking with X1 for now, with the hope that the above issues will be dealt with.  I'm just a cockeyed optimist, I suppose.

tarsier


automation lanes (which isn't necessarily about automation lanes, but about automation usability)

Indeed. Despite the changes, automation/envelopes in Sonar are still years behind the competition.

especially fit and finish

A very good description of what is lacking in most if not all areas of Sonar. There is a continual lack of attention to detail on all fronts and it makes every new feature they add less than half the value it could have had if properly and precisely implemented.

The ProChannel sounds great but is trying to imitate a hardware UI which is right up there on the list of user interface blunders.

Heh I like that: "don’t bend your interface to fit some arbitrary metaphoric standard." Indeed! Anno 2011 the ProChannel GUI is a completely misguided concept.

I'm just a cockeyed optimist, I suppose.

I must say I am not sure why I stick around myself... I've aired my views on many occasions. I just keep hoping Cakewalk will get it at some point... or hire someone that does.

Frankly I think James (eratu) is being much too polite when he says that Cakewalk are just heading in a different direction than he is. Sonar is so buggy and things are so half-baked this tells me the problem is not one of direction but one of competence. Sonar still offers all the stuff people like James and me need but they are all half implemented and not well thought. Half-baked. THAT is the real problem.

UnderTow

Hey Eratu!


Man that was some good reading you've posted here. Well, I guess I can only say; that's how the boat floats these days;)

X1 is really a new DAW and like I've read somewhere else on the forums: "It's not your fathers DAW anymore" .

Even though I actually have a 10 year anniversary with Sonar sometime soon, I really welcome the changes that have been introduced in X1 and I am very excited about where the bakers are taking it. I find it an inspiring change but I understand it’s not for everyone. But something else is not for me either. Different people, different DAWs etc. I’ve been lucky and have most things working for me and except for three small niggles it’s working very well in my everyday usage. I know it will only get better and I expect the bugs to be ironed out really soon too. Envelopes in tracks VS lanes – I couldn’t care less, but that’s me. I work a lot in Nuendo and use automation lanes there. Yes, they are great. Sonar’s envelopes are great too. I have no favourite but I think Cake has made a huge improvement. Very interesting what you said about different automation, tho. I expect that more will happen to it now that others are taking it further (seen Cubase 6?).
 
Anyway, thanks for your posts, they’re excellent and in stead of a rant you concluded that it might not be for you. I understand and I think that’s a conclusion more users probably will come too. Sonar started to be “not for me” with version 7 – I was bored with it and found it difficult to work in. With X1 I’ve found the change I needed to continue being a Cakewalk customer.
 
Take care and I hope to see you around here in the future as well.
 
Peace!

I wonder how conscious the bakers were of the risk they were taking and the possibility of alienating long time users? It had to be a topic of discussion at least and what would one imagine the conclusion of that topic to be?

It's worth the risk because we've limited our future market and future features with the current (8.53) interface?

It's not that great a risk because we've really nailed it with this release and everyone will like it?

It's a risk and decision we'd rather not make because our long time users have gotten us here but the real business world of DAW's is forcing our hand?

No matter the process the result was inevitable. Some people will love it and others will leave for other DAWs.

I'm only bummed out because I recognize some long time users and great contributors that may not be here any longer.

That's a loss for everyone in the Sonar community but I know these decisions do not come easy and hopefully the benefits to everyone in the small world of computer audio will be realized in the long run.

I think it was a mistake keeping Sonar in the name. Leads to expectations if only sub-concious. Then again some things never change. I'm sure ProjectM, you & HumbleNoise between you can see that............

I'm sorry but X1 and especially X1a is just broken and the notion that it isn't is just bizarre. I'm not risking uninstalling it as I don't want to damage my 8.5.3 installation.

mudgel I fully respect that you are having problems and you think it "is just broken and the notion that it isn't is just bizarre"  but it works very well for me apart from the bug carry overs, odd bug here & there and audiosnap (which I'm taking the word of others for - it didn't work for me in 8.3 haven't tried X1) and I find the notion that it's broken just as bizarre.

I guess that depends on how you define broken though. No it's not perfect I'm first to recognize that. Can you point me to the thread with the problems you are having so I can try and understand why you and I are seeing such different things from the same program.

I'm being genuine here not trying to start another word war.

If Cakewalk had changed the name of SONAR v18.0.01.197 then it would be absolutely clear that v8.5 customers were abandoned as were the P5 users.

I wouldn't have even sent in the $99.

At some point Cakewalk needs to service it's existing customer base... leaving some hope that we are still in an update/patch/upgrade path was probably a good idea.

best regards,
mike

I have worked on X1 on a client system. And I am aware of all the critique on this. But Logic went this way before and there was allso alot of criticism on the choices made by the developmentteam. I only want to add that from here on out the ball lies somewhat in the hands of the customer. With input from them X1 can take two steps forward.

I help severall customers setup their Tascam Dm3200/Dm4800 and have learnd to get by on Cubase, Sonar Logic and Protools. I like the current looks. And hope the development team is able to finetune this release.

Allso I was not shocked to see Protools 9 being available at a 600 euro pricepoint.

Jim Roseberry

I absolutely *LOVE* automation lanes. I hit "E" and all my envelopes are displayed, each one in it's own lane and ready for editing. I hit "E" again, and they all become hidden again.

 
Agreed...
I much prefer automation lanes... as opposed to all envelopes stacked in the same lane.
Much easier to manage once you have multiple envelopes
Not that I'm trying to sway anyone's opinion... or stir up any more discussion about the issues...
But I did a sesssion last night with several hours of recording (many takes and vocal punch-ins). 
Lots of subtle tempo adjustments on the click track... and lots of slip editing
Lots of starting/stopping playback.
Didn't have a single issue with X1 (running on a prototype 4.5GHz SandyBridge DAW). 
At times I honestly feel like I must be using a different software application.  
If I was having the issues some folks have demonstrated, I probably would have uninstall X1.
That said, thus far X1 has been pretty good to me.
The lone issue I've experienced is a problem when running a beta driver for a particular Firewire audio interface.  Sonar would open... then "poof" disappear (but still be running).
Using a different model Firewire audio interface (same manufacturer) with the same beta driver... X1 works as expected.  So I'll chalk that up to an issue with the beta driver...
I'm glad I don't feel the need to migrate from Sonar.  That would be a major hassle...
  

I've just gotten where it's not unusual for me to have a LOT of automation in a single track.  I might have three or four envelopes on a single plugin of a track, on top of the envelopes just for the audio data on the track.  No screwing around trying to isolate and see just one parameters worth of envelope when it's in it's own lane.  Add to that the ability to single key or single click toggle them from visible to hidden makes efficient automation control.  The bottom line is that a DAW is only a tool, and I *could* prolly make quality music with *any* recording tools.  Even the old dinosaur 1" Ampex AG440B-8 and 24x8x2 console that used to be in my studio.

Jose7822


Eratu,

Very nice post, as usual.  You have perfectly expressed my feelings about SONAR X1.  I too feel like Cakewalk is headed in a different direction that doesn't involve me either.  The features that I want or need are half-baked in SONAR, yet they work perfectly in other DAWs.  I know there are bugs in those DAWs as well.  But I doubt ANY of them is as buggy as SONAR X1 is at the moment.  Like you said, this is probably the worst DAW release we've seen yet.  Cakewalk should've taken their sweet time to get this as polished as possible instead of rushing it like they did.  Sadly, we live in a capitalist world, where money speaks louder than words.  There's a limit though, and Cakewalk crossed it for me.

Cakewalk should've spent all their resources fixing bugs and improving existing features instead of working on a new GUI.  I like Skylight, except that it came out a bit prematurely.  To be honest, I was really excited about it at first, with all the workflow improvements potentials that it has.  But then I learned that all the previous bugs where still there (Audio Snap being one of the features I was looking forward to be able to use without issues), and that's when I started getting disappointed by this release.  Add to the mix the overall instability, new bugs, added half-baked features & plugins, the same yearly cycle, etc.  It just got old for me, so I'm moving on.  Thankfully, there are many other choices in the market, with great features and a better audio engine than SONAR (sorry, but this is the plain truth).  I'll also keep an eye on Cakewalk's future releases but, considering the responses we've gotten over the features you and I really need, I doubt I will come back to purchase another SONAR version for a while.  The other guys are in a whole other level when it comes to the features I find important in a DAW, and I know it's gonna be a while before Cakewalk catches up to them.

Well, I have to head out now.  Just came here to show my agreement with your comments :-)


Take care my friend!
 
 
 
 
 
 
  
  
  
 

Best of luck to you Jose my friend.. We have had our differences but the one thing I always knew was that those issues were born out of a desire to see Sonar be the best it could be. You (along with eratu) and many others put in a lot of time and effort to get us here (here being 8.5.3..).. So a big thanks from me personally and wishing nothing but success for you guys..
 
...as a side note: I started making brief statements several weeks ago that this was happening and/or going to happen.. the silence was deafening from certain quarters (Jose here being one of them) and I could tell we were heading towards a "split"...
 
Sonar X1 is definitely pointing in a direction other then where a lot of us are or want to be heading.. That's Cake's prerogative and I do not begrudge them one bit for it.. but I will just end by saying this.. 8.5.3 (in my mind) had placed Sonar among the big boys in "professional" computer audio production.. even with it's issues it simply was every bit the DAW that Logic, Cubase, Nuendo, Reaper, PTLE, etc was.. It had really all come down to personal preference...
 
To me this "sea change" in direction does not move that perception or reality forward in the least.. It brings Sonar down to the "entry level" of computer audio production and leaves behind alot of nuances and flexibility that had Sonar "in the mix".. so to speak. I, like many others had hoped that X1 was going to be chock full of core improvements to existing features and an 'opening up" of the program to allow the more experience user to do even more with it (i.e. the ability to freely route audio from anywhere to anywhere or the ability to further customize the GUI to user preferences, etc, etc..)  
 
In the end - will Sonar gain a ton of new users?  - The answer to that is undoubtedly yes however, they will also (as you can see here) lose a ton of invaluable experience and input as this board has gone from the best user forum in all of DAW land to nothing more then a vehicle for self aggrandizing opinions and rants - and that includes some (not all) Cakewalk employees who cannot seem to stay out of the fray - This has hurt not helped them in my opinion .
 
 
(by the way.. I have had my own "moments" too that I wish I could take back...)
 
So as we part ways - I too wish Sonar the very best..honestly.. and I do think that eventually X2,3,5 or whatever will be all it is capable of.. I'll probably always come on here and pop off about something just because I have been around so long (way before I joined) and it's fun at times..but alas.. turn out the lights..the party is over.
 
peace
 

10Ten


Is anyone's audio engine worse than Sonar at this point?

I wanted to chime in on this point here.  I've been using PT9 since its release and I can say that on my i7 DAW that Sonar's actual audio engine DOES outperform it.  To be more specific, I would say that VST processing outperforms RTAS (PT plugin format) by leaps and bounds.  I'm able to use softsynths and high-cpu plugins at lower latency in Sonar than I can in PT. 

Now when it comes to everything else (organization, speed, grouping, editing) PT wipes the floor with it IMO, YMMV.  Still though-- the softsynth and overall plugin performance with Sonar is an undeniable win.  Now I understand why I've met so many composers that use a combination of PT+DP, PT+Logic, etc.  PT, just doesn't do well in the softsynth arena and I think most PT user would agree with that.  When I need to record a band, it's PT time for me.  If I need to compose a score, I'm going to use Sonar, then export when I'm finished.  It's a little annoying to need two different programs, but I love them both, so that's how it has to be (for me).
 
About James (eratu), remember that the guy is not dying, he's just switching software and I'm sure he's still easy to get ahold of for chatting and other info.  I have moved on too, but I'm still reading for my own entertainment and to help people.  Point being-- nothing has changed.  This is the net and even though we have different needs, we're all still here and we don't have to hate each other just because we prefer different software.  Even though PT works better for what I need, Sonar is still special to me and I'll always wish Cake the best of luck.
 
Have a great weekend everyone!