Basic EQ and Effects Question

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Guitarhacker
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/04 08:05:34 (permalink)
When I cloned the guitar and sax on a recent song.... I clicked on the new track properties tab and changed the start time from 1:01:000   to   1:01:040 and there was no apparent issues. I also spread the tracks 80% L and R respectively. 

Had I left them both centered or panned to the same side there might have been comb filtering issues, but they were not interacting in the same channel to any major degree.

The result was a nice stereo spread and a fatter sound.

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Beagle
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/04 09:04:17 (permalink)
40msec is a good amount to work with (depending on the material, the tempo, the time signature, yada, yada...) and panning them hard will help reduce the effects of comb filtering (when listening in stereo) and might not even be perceptable to anyone.  

there are too many variables, but it's very possible that you, me, or even Dan Lavry could not detect it in a mix.  but it is still there. 

http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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Colonel Sanders
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/04 12:01:55 (permalink)
Ok.  I have a short clip of the intro to a David Wilcox tune (in DADGAD tuning) that I recorded using two mics to a single track, and then cloning the track twice.  I then put the track with no e.q. in the middle, panned one emphasizing the low end hard left, and the other emphasizing the high end hard right.  I added a little stereo chorus and reverb to the middle track only. 

How do I go about sharing this WMA file with you?
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Beagle
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/04 12:26:04 (permalink)
you can set up a free music streaming and/or download account with several providers.  soundclick is pretty popular, but I've stopped using it because it's gotten really bad about aggressive popup advertising and ads which have audio that play automatically at the same time as the music is playing.

soundcloud.com is a decent one to use.  there's also reverbnation.com and a few others.  you'll probably have to encode it to mp3, tho, I don't think any of the free sites allow wma files.

http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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Colonel Sanders
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/04 12:34:38 (permalink)
Then I'll have to wait until tonight to do it.
 
A question about that: I've tried encoding a couple of MP3s and they've come out with what I think are insanely large file sizes for a short clip.  Is there a way to configure it so that the size of the file is 3 mb or under?
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Beagle
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/04 13:57:44 (permalink)
yes, the smaller the bitrate you choose the smaller the file will be.  but actually I shoot for around 5 to 8M with a 192kbit/sec rate mp3.  the lower the bit rate, the higher then compression of the file and the more change is made to your mix.  192kbit/sec is a decent happy medium, but some streaming sites require 128kbit/sec for their free sites (like soundclick) because it reduces their bandwidth and file size.

usually a 3 to 4 minute song will be around 6 to 8M at 192k mp3.

http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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Beagle
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/04 14:00:28 (permalink)
I am pretty sure that soundcloud allows uploading of wma's.

http://soundcloud.com/tour/


http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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Colonel Sanders
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/04 14:22:59 (permalink)
Nope:

We support AIFF, WAVE, FLAC, OGG, MP2, MP3, AAC files.
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Beagle
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/04 14:30:39 (permalink)
oh well.

http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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Guitarhacker
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/04 19:19:44 (permalink)
What you want to do first of all is export the song as a WAVE...then use your converter to convert it to MP3 format,

My website & music: www.herbhartley.com

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Colonel Sanders
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/04 20:10:40 (permalink)
Will try that.
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Colonel Sanders
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/05 09:11:01 (permalink)
Ok, so here's the link to Soundcloud.  My first reaction is that the cut sounds too hot -- i.e., I did not leave sufficient head room.  Anyway, this was recorded with an Ovation longneck using two mics (small and large condenser) recorded to a single track, which was placed center with no e.q.; two cloned tracks were panned left and right, one augmenting the bass, the other augmenting the treble. Finally, a small bit of stereo chorus and reverb were added to the center track only.  For purposes of comparison, the original song (which was recorded without a capo) appears as the second track on the album linked just below.
 
My next project is to record guitar and vocals simultaenously and mix down to two tracks.
Would appreciate hearing whether the guitar sounds sufficiently (or even too) fattened, with the understanding that I intend to use home recording software to record folk tunes (i.e., me and my guitar), such that the sound of the guitar is very important to me.
 
[link=http://soundcloud.com/da-colonel/language-of-the-heart-excerpt]http://soundcloud.com/da-...e-of-the-heart-excerpt[/link] 
 
[link=http://www.davidwilcox.com/index.php?page=cds&family=&category=03--CDS&display=306]http://www.davidwilcox.co...3--CDS&display=306[/link]
 
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Colonel Sanders
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/05 09:15:25 (permalink)
By the way, for those who ask "Why didn't you use two mics to record a stereo take of the guitar?," my answer is that I had configured my Tascam US-800 in such a way that both mics were recording to the same channel, and I didn't want to mess with it.  I have Home Studio 7 on the way, which will allow me to use all six inputs from the Tascam correctly.  At that time, I will be able to use two mics to record the guitar in stereo, which hopefully will require less tricks in the mixing process (i.e,. no cloning, and very little chorus and reverb to fatten the guitar).  In other words, my goal is to get to a point where the principal tool for getting decent acoustic guitar sound (aside from the mics and the room) is the e.q.
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57Gregy
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/05 09:41:10 (permalink)
Well, it sounds good to me.
I want to mention the Cakewalk Songs forum, too. There are several folks over there who do mostly acoustic music. They and others can offer a lot of advice, some contradictory but you may find a method that works for them that will work for you.

Greg 
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Colonel Sanders
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/05 10:10:42 (permalink)
Thanks Greg (I thought I already posted a reply).  I have always been a much better guitar player than vocalist, which is a curse, because most of the music-listening public is quick to spot good (or bad) singing, and rarely will notice good guitar playing underneath. So I need validation from fellow musicians.

We'll see what happens when I record a full song, guitar and vocals.. ..

Peace.

PS Thans for the suggestion re: Songs forum.  I've posted there a link to my post here.
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Beagle
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/05 12:04:02 (permalink)
that's pretty good from what I can hear on my work computer.  i.e. onboard soundmax soundcard with $5 crappy headphones.

http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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Colonel Sanders
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/05 13:10:05 (permalink)
Beagle,

Not much different from what I used to listen to the final mix . . .! 

Thanks.   I will endeavor to make it sound more acoustic as soon as HS7 is fully installed.
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Colonel Sanders
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/05 14:58:35 (permalink)
By the way, do YOU think there's a phase issue, as one commenter suggested?
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Beagle
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/05 15:04:10 (permalink)
haha - I'm the one who was talking about phase problems being introduced when cloning (in THIS thread - you may be talking about the guy in the songs forum who said that)!  I did not notice any phase problems in the recording on the listen that I did.  but again, there are a lot of variables which come into play as to whether the phase problems will be heard or not.  one of them is that I'm listening in a noisy environment on crappy headphones.  I might not have been able to hear the cow mooing in the background, either!

I will try to give your piece a good listen on my home system tonight if I have time.  I'm a pretty busy person right now, so I might not get to it for a day or two at home.  but I'll try and give you a better detailed critique.
post edited by Beagle - 2011/05/05 17:21:47

http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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Beagle
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/05 21:07:45 (permalink)
ok, I listened on my DAW at home and yes, there is a phasey sound and the chorus is evident.

in a mix with other instruments, I probably wouldn't be able to tell that, but by itself it's certainly easy to pick out.  adding vocals will help some, but if all you're adding is vox then probably it will still be audible.

you've done a decent job recording it, tho and it's well played.

http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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Colonel Sanders
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/05 21:32:44 (permalink)
Well, when I get home, I am going to take most of the chorus out and elminate the clone tracks and see what that leaves me with.  A friend of mine who hosts the fingerpick magazine web site reminded me not to over-produce etc. when trying to record acoustic guitar and voice. . .
 
He also told me, much to my di$may, that my Ovation (particularly the Adamas) style, was never meant to be played fingerstyle -- which is what I've been doing with this particular guitar since 2004.
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Beagle
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/06 08:27:22 (permalink)
I have not personally heard that Ovations were not meant to be played fingerstyle - but that doesn't mean anything because I'm just a very beginner at guitar with a $150 Epiphone acoustic!  but your friend's advice about not "overproducing" is very valid for "singer-songwriter" style.

http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/06 13:44:37 (permalink)
I would love to know why he says that, since from what i can tell most guitars play very similarly. I have three accoustics and all of them will fingerpick nicely, (if you can fingerpick) I have a Ovation 12 string and it sounds very nice. plugged in and picked

I'd Seize the day but i can't quite reach it!

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Beagle
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/06 15:20:11 (permalink)
yeah, I admit I'm curious about that too.

http://soundcloud.com/beaglesound/sets/featured-songs-1
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Colonel Sanders
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/06 15:33:17 (permalink)
In fairness, I think Doug was speaking more to the quackiness of the pick-up -- which was the sole method I used to record the clip I sent to him (not the one I posted here).  That said, I have had trouble getting a good mic'd sound.  Traditional accoustic guitars have a soundhole that you can mic; my guitar is an Adamas style that has the smaller holes . . .
post edited by Colonel Sanders - 2011/05/06 16:07:43
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57Gregy
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/06 16:57:48 (permalink)
Just happened to search the Techniques forum for 'recording acoustic guitar' yesterday and got lots of hits. There are many ways to do it.
As I mentioned, I use a similar method to you, acoustic pick-up and a mic. The mic is a SD condenser pointed at the fretboard at about the 12th fret, 6-8 inches away. Lots of folks use this method, it seems, but often augment that with a mic either over their shoulder or slightly behind the guitar at it's base. Apparently, the sound hole(s) is for listening to, not recording from.
 

Greg 
I am selling my MIM Fender Stratocaster HSS, red and black. PM for more details.

Music Creator 2003, MC Pro 24, SONAR Home Studio 6 XL, SONAR  X3e, CbB, Focusrite Saffire, not enough space.
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Colonel Sanders
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/06 17:02:08 (permalink)
Noted.
 
So, if you had a 2004 Ovation Longneck, but had the opportunity to buy a used 2003 Takamine EAN-30c, would you do it (assuming you play mostly fingerstyle, which is what I do)?
 
People are urging me to give the Tak a close look.  I heard some sound clips of it on fingerpick.com, when it was tuned in Open G, and it sounded beautiful.
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57Gregy
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/06 18:03:43 (permalink)
Well, I'm cheap, not to mention poor.
I record with a (very) used Epiphone acoustic with a broken bridge and saddle that I glued together, but I got it for $40!
And a used Epiphone Les Paul, $100. Squire P-Bass, $179 new. Old Yamaha MIDI keyboard.
Plus, my hearing is shot, so my advice would be: get what you like. But not because you heard an excellently-recorded-in-a-multi-million-dollar-studio guitar on the internet. I am cheap, but I like to try before I buy.
 

Greg 
I am selling my MIM Fender Stratocaster HSS, red and black. PM for more details.

Music Creator 2003, MC Pro 24, SONAR Home Studio 6 XL, SONAR  X3e, CbB, Focusrite Saffire, not enough space.
Everything is better with pie. 

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http://www.reverbnation.com/#!/gregfields 
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RobertB
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/06 22:24:06 (permalink)
I've been following this thread with interest.
Here are a few thoughts.
You might like that Takamine. I noticed it has a cedar top. That was the deciding factor when I got my Simon and Patrick Woodland Cedar guitar.
The cedar top had a warmer tone than the more abundant spruce top guitars. During a 5 hour marathon mission, I kept circling back to this guitar, and finally walked out with it. It should be noted that I had a hard ceiling of $400, so I didn't even touch more expensive models.
Nonetheless, it's been a decision I've been quite happy with.
I'm sure a Takamine with a cedar top would be an exquisite sounding guitar.
As for the sound holes, that's not really a downside on your Ovation, because that's the last place you want to put the mic, as Greg alluded to.
Just for grins, thump on the face of your Ovation, first next to the neck, then just below the bridge. Hear the difference?
This is why mic placement is so important when recording an acoustic guitar. An inch or two in any direction can make a big difference.
I place dual mics similar to what Greg mentioned. A small diaphragm pencil mic near the 12th fret, angled toward the sound hole, and a second large diaphragm mic just below and behind the bridge.
Both are roughly 8" from the guitar, so no phasing issues.
Each is recorded to a mono track, and panned 20-60% opposite from center. This gives the guitar a large, but cohesive presence in the middle of the mix. The characteristics of the sound from each mic keeps it from collapsing to center.
Each of these tracks has a send to a reverb bus, which usually has GlaceVerb (a free download VST) inserted, because it is so adjustable. This allows me to define the space around the guitar.
The wider panning (60%) keeps the guitar cohesive, but leaves a void for something, such as your vocal track, to cut through the center. I rarely pan 100%, because to my ears, it's just too much separation, and the parts become detached.
Experiment. With the inputs you have, and the software, you have incredible control. The trick is finding that right balance.

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Colonel Sanders
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/06 22:40:41 (permalink)
Okay everyone, here's a sample using Home Studio 7, two mics, to two tracks (eached panned 75% l/r), each individually e.q.'d, and some subtle reverb and mild compression.  This is in DADGAD tuning so the those open strings (esp. low notes) are supposed to ring through. Constructive criticism welcome.

http://soundcloud.com/da-colonel/language-of-the-heart
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