Basic EQ and Effects Question

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Colonel Sanders
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/06 22:42:48 (permalink)
By the way, my model Ovation is now retailing at over $2,000.
 
The used Tak is going for $500.  My guitar is in mint condition, and I have no doubt I could sell it for more than the Tak would cost...
 
But if I can get good sound out of this Ovation in the studio, I'm keeping it because it is so damn easy to play!
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RobertB
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/06 22:56:05 (permalink)
Easy to play is good. You can't over emphasize comfort.
Keep it, and get the Tak. There's no such thing as too many guitars
They all have unique personalities. I find that my playing technique varies quite a bit, depending on which guitar I am playing.
Different guitars for different moods.

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Beagle
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/06 23:02:58 (permalink)
that's sweet sounding, Steve!  sounds better than the last recording!

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RobertB
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/06 23:16:50 (permalink)
Totally agree. That's a much more natural, satisfying sound.
The first version was a little over the top, but this is very nice. Very nice indeed.

And it sounds like an Ovation.
post edited by RobertB - 2011/05/06 23:20:02

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Colonel Sanders
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/09 07:35:34 (permalink)
"Sounds like an Ovation"?  That may be a negative.  I am looking into Eastman guitars as well . ..
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Colonel Sanders
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/11 22:17:19 (permalink)
Okay, I know I'm supposed to do this in the songs forum, but I started this darned thread. . .
 
So, I recorded this using three tracks: (1) line in from Ovation pick-up, (2) MXL990 at 12th fret, and (3) AKG170 over right shoulder.
 
I e.q.'d each track and added only a hint of reverb.  I am in a tough recording space, because there is a lot of echo and it makes the bass notes on my longscale resonate loudly, so I tried to take that out.
 
Constructive criticism is welcome, with the understanding that I am a minimalist: I want to do as little as possible and have as natural a sound as possible.  (One of there days I'll put down a vocal track too, but after I re-shingle the roof, cut the grass....)
 
http://soundcloud.com/da-colonel/bach-instrumental 
post edited by Colonel Sanders - 2011/05/11 22:34:53
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57Gregy
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/13 00:59:45 (permalink)
Sounds good to me.
Well, anything by Bach sounds good to me

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Beagle
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/13 09:33:26 (permalink)
i wasn't able to get onto the forums last night, so I couldn't get to your link.  I'll try tonight.

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Colonel Sanders
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/13 22:11:51 (permalink)
Beagle,
 
I redid it in my living room, two mics, one at 12th fret, other b/w bridge and bottom of guitar.
 
http://soundcloud.com/da-colonel/bach-instrumnental-david
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Colonel Sanders
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/14 20:29:36 (permalink)
I installed HS7 on my laptop to record in the living room, and noticed that the audio waves for one of the mics shows as if there is hardly any sound recording, even though the meters show plenty of sound, and there is plenty when I play back.  Why would that happen?
 
(No problem with other mic on other track).
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/14 20:41:56 (permalink)
What are the track's output levels?
Using 2 different mics can cause the waveforms to be different. When I record the pick up and mic together, I have to set the pu input higher to get approximately the same recording level. If not, I have to raise the output level after recording to get the volumes to the same level.

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Colonel Sanders
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/14 21:08:35 (permalink)
Output is fine.  Is it a phase issue?
RobertB
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/14 21:22:20 (permalink)
Colonel Sanders


"Sounds like an Ovation"?  That may be a negative.  I am looking into Eastman guitars as well . ..
Not intended as a negative. I rather like the sound of ovations, but they do have a fairly strong resonant quality.


The living room track sounds considerably better balanced than the basement track.
Try the AKG at the 12th fret, and the MXL 990 at the bridge. Since the sound holes on your particular guitar are fairly near the 12th fret, the 990 may not be a good choice for that position. It has a fairly wide pickup pattern. I would also try tilting the AKG at a more downward angle, to minimize the influence of the sound holes.
I use the MXL 990/991 in this configuration.
Like this:

Try moving the bridge mic around. Sometimes a small change can make a huge difference. 
Keep experimenting. There is a sweet spot somewhere, and it may not be where we would expect it on a more conventional guitar.

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Shimozu-Kushiari or Bob
Colonel Sanders
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/14 21:32:23 (permalink)
Funny, before you even posted this, I found that the best place for the AKG was pointed down towards the middle of the soundboard below the strings (the MXL I've been using for vocals tonight).
 
So far, that's the best that the Ovation has sounded through the AKG, just in time for me to sell it and use the Eastman AC812CE . . .
 
Thanks for the heplful suggestions.  I'll try to post something from tonight's noodlings, although I have a sore throat/cold, and my singing is really crappy...
Colonel Sanders
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/14 22:41:49 (permalink)
CENSORED BY OP!
post edited by Colonel Sanders - 2011/05/14 23:19:16
RobertB
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/14 23:07:19 (permalink)
Hmm. I'm getting a message that this might be a private page and can't be found.

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Colonel Sanders
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/14 23:18:27 (permalink)
Yah they screwed up my upload. Try this:
 
http://soundcloud.com/da-colonel/something-in-the-way-she-moves
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/15 00:02:47 (permalink)
Censored! That must have really been privatejk.
That's a nice track. Very JT indeed.
I might like to hear your vocal track more centered.
Have you played with busses yet?
Keeping the guitar and vocal tracks dry, but using sends to a bus with a reverb would make this a bit more cohesive.
As it stands, the guitar sounds recorded in a slightly more live room than the vocals. Or at least, not quite the same room.
That said, this sounds good. You're in the area of subtle refinement.
Have you tried Nyquist EQ? It's a free download, and is wonderful for precise sound shaping.
Also, I'd have a hard time parting with that guitar. If I could afford it, I'd offer to give it a home.

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Shimozu-Kushiari or Bob
Colonel Sanders
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/15 16:44:29 (permalink)
in a slightly more live room than the vocals. Or at least, not quite the same room. That said, this sounds good. You're in the area of subtle refinement. Have you tried Nyquist EQ? It's a free download

 
 
The guitars and vocals were recorded dry at the same time, one mic for guitar, the other for voice.  I put some compression on the voice, not the guitar, and I think I toned down the amount of guitar going to the stereo reverb bus.  Was it THAT noticeable?
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/15 20:48:41 (permalink)
Here's the remix of last night's take.  I think it improved it.  I took the compressor off the vocal and tried to feed less of the vocal track to the reverb send than the guitar track.  Thoughts?
 
http://soundcloud.com/da-colonel/something-in-the-way-she
RobertB
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/15 23:46:51 (permalink)
Yes, a definite improvement. There's more unity between the tracks. This is believable, and has the sound of a smallish, intimate venue.
There are two spots that stand out that need some attention. The first, at 0:33 is a hot vocal spike. An envelope, or possibly a limiter might take care of that. The second, at 1:54 may be tougher to clean up. It kind of sounds like you may have bumped the mic stand? You may be able to surgically remove, or at least minimize this one with an envelope.
Both are clearly evident in the Soundcloud waveform, and should be easy to spot in the original tracks.
re the earlier version

" Was it THAT noticeable? "
Maybe not to the average listener, but we tend to be more particular, and I was somewhat relieved to see that Rik wrote almost exactly what I had. You took our comments in the spirit they were intended, and the new version clearly reflects that.

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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/16 08:14:37 (permalink)
On what Robert said: the folks here are very discerning at times. There are some folks here with really good ears, and you will develop better listening skills as time goes on.

Small clicks and pops, eq that's slightly off, are all things that must be fixed. It often takes me a few days, sometimes less, of listening to the "finished" tune to really pinpoint and pick out the nits. Generally, when I post a song on the SONGS FORUM, I already know the problems to some degree, and I am seeking to find out if others also hear what I hear.... quite often they do.

After I spot them, I have to determine which track they are on... back to the original mix and solo the tracks one at a time on the glitch....sometimes it's a click, a pick noise, a sloppy edit, or simply a good chord/note in two tracks that combine in the mix to sound bad.  Either way, it has to be resolved. It can be as simple as enveloping it out, or as complex as a punch in to record it again, which generally means (for me) recording the entire track again. It's really hard to match tone and character on a punch in several days after the original take.
post edited by Guitarhacker - 2011/05/16 08:16:02

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Colonel Sanders
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/16 11:43:36 (permalink)
Well the pops are from my lack of a pop filter.  Next time, I will re-do a take before posting, but the goal was to see if the sound in the room and the e.q.-ing were up to snuff.
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/16 14:58:21 (permalink)
yeah... no problem... just a heads up

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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/17 03:48:58 (permalink)
By the way, is this home studio software really worth all the trouble?  Here is a link to a video of the same JT song I posted here, except this was recorded in April using a single MXL990 mic for both guitar and vocal, through a crappy Behringer mixer, e.q.-d, with some reverb, with a line out to the external mic input of my camera.  I hate to say it, but the sound on this video is more natural, warm, and acoustic than the sound I got on the direct-to-two-track that I posted here over the weekend. 
Of course, that may simply mean that the Behringer has better preamps for the mics than my Tascam US-800 interface, but I found the difference in sound really fascinating, since the April take used one mic, and the one this weekend used 2 (and had the benefit of F/X and mixdown).

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkFOoxgTHBI
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/17 07:46:17 (permalink)
Yeah... it was cleaner sounding and more better good.

Sometimes, simple is the better route. For the song in question, a simply recording would seem to be the right way to go.

When people first get into multitrack recording, they want to use all the tracks and features, and that can actually mess them up. In addition, with Cake, you have all the FX and EQ options and the plugs of various sorts that when added and used improperly will mess the music up rather than let it shine through.

With the Youtube video recording rig... it was plain and simple and you couldn't go in and add stuff to it easily.

The more you learn about Cake and recording with it the better you will become.

Call that a reality check. Then more forward and learn the things to make the Cake recording better than the plain camera recording.

About the camera recording.... while it was a bit "warmer and clearer" there were other issues that I would have addressed. The EQ overall on the guitar had a slight midrange sound... a bit boxy, and the voice could have been "closer" and a bit warmer. Hard to fix that in the video set up, however, a relatively easy fix in CAKE..... once you learn a few things.   Since you're new to CAKE, take your time.... you are on the right track and by recognizing the deficiencies in your Cake recording, you are sure to discover why they occurred and learn to avoid them in the future. It takes time... there is no substitute for time on the DAW to learn the right way to do things.... by doing them wrong, and then searching for the answers.

It has been said and discussed at various times in the forums that it is not the gear that makes the recording, it's what YOU do with the gear you have and how you use it that makes the recording good or not so good. If you gave Bob Katz your rig, he would still make top quality recordings, and if you could set in Bob's chair in his studio, you'd still be wondering what went wrong with the recording. It's not the gear.

This is NOT intended as an insult to you my friend..... we all have to learn so many things to make this start to sound good. Stick with it and you'll see.

I've been here 3+ years and I'm beginning to see how much I still have left to learn about recording and about writing music. But at the same time, I'm 3 years further down the road toward that goal.
post edited by Guitarhacker - 2011/05/17 07:51:53

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Colonel Sanders
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/17 09:20:19 (permalink)
Actually, whatever Youtube does by way of audio compression really hurt the quality; it sounded MUCH better when I watched/listened to the raw high def. video.
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/17 09:41:52 (permalink)
By the way, anyone want to chime in on this question: is it worth spending $80 to $150 on a stand-alone mic-preamp, given that I am now relying solely on the phantom power supplied by the Tascam Audio interface, which does not appear to give a very warm sound?
post edited by Colonel Sanders - 2011/05/17 09:49:18
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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/17 12:10:02 (permalink)
it really depends, Steve.  a mic preamp can certainly add different types of "character" to the recording.  if you're looking for a "warm" sound, you're right that you're not going to get that from the pres on the tascam.  they're going to be designed for clean gain.  they might not achieve that goal, but that's going to be the attempt of the design for any of the mixers and audio soundcard interfaces because that's what the default should be.  you wouldn't want a warm tube preamp or transformer preamp on ALL inputs, you want clean gain as a standard and then you can add warm preamps in front of the LINE INPUT of the soundcard if you prefer that color.

but I also warn you not to expect a LOT of difference with a tube or transformer pre.  especially at the price point you're looking at.  which preamps are you looking at for that price?

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Re:Basic EQ and Effects Question 2011/05/17 12:25:42 (permalink)
Well, if you've followed what came before this, I watched a video I took in April where I recorded my guitar and voice through an MXL990, into a small Behringer Mixer, straight into the external mic jack of my camcorder.  The youtube video doesn't do it justice, but listening to the raw video, the audio is clearly superior to what I did on the JT cover through the Tascam and Sonar software.  So clearly the preamps in the Behringer are superior to the Tascam.
 
I was thinking about either the Behringer MIC2200 2-channel preamp (for approx $100), or the M-Audio DMP-3, or the BlueTube DP. 
post edited by Colonel Sanders - 2011/05/17 13:05:24
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