Kurtly

Thats why you may wish to clone a track instead of copy. It will let you do an edit one the first track and it will show on the cloned track. They are linked.

Like I said, I rarely work with midi, that's good to know! I've only used clone track in audio to get the same sends/fx etc for a new track.

He is wrong. It only works for existing Clips (if you tag the "Link to Original Clips" option).

UnderTow

John

He is wrong. It only works for existing Clips (if you tag the "Link to Original Clips" option).

So how are you going to copy something that does not exist? Of course it only works with clips that exist.

You are the one claiming the tracks are linked. They are not. Only the existing Clips are linked (if the users chooses that). Which means it is only a limited solution. That is why people keep requesting the functionality to be able to route a MIDI track to multiple MIDI outputs. That would be a complete solution.

UnderTow

John



No one here is saying anything against a MIDI send or any other means to do this. What I am saying and I believe clearly is at present this is the way it is done. Your objections are silly.

They seem silly to you because you don't get it . Look: http://puretone.nl/flash/MIDI_Routing.swf

UnderTow

John

AndyDavis


I understand what everyone is saying about copied tracks, but what I am really after is a layer rather than a doubled part.  Specifically, something where the entire sound is perceived as being a combination of the two synths.  The most obvious example would be a kick drum sample reinforced by a synth sound.  I guess I could have spelled that a littler further in my original post.

At any rate, given that intent, while controlling the synths by putting them on separate tracks will work, it seams like a very unnatural way to go about things.  Again, the Reason Combinator makes this trivial in that program, so I was curious if I was just missing something obvious in Sonar.

I will take another look at EnergyXT, I went by that web page and it looked like it had completely outgrown that purpose.

Chregg-
I may have to check that out as well.

I guess you are not understanding the power of copying tracks and sending the outs to any synth you like. There is no restriction on what the copied track can send to. Plus you can edit it or add MFX to it.
Just to be sure you do understand  what you are trying to do is not just possible but very simple to do with a copied track. Its the same data going to different synths.

Sorry John,

But this comment didn't sound like you were just trying to inform us of that ability to clone a track.  It sounded instead like you felt we were all idiots because we think this is not a good solution.

If that's not how you intended fine.

They seem silly to you because you don't get it . Look: http://puretone.nl/flash/MIDI_Routing.swf

 
I hate to get in the middle of your 'discussion' but if this clip is suppose to show that editing the original clip does not affect the linked cloned clip it won't in this example since the added notes are outside the clip boundries of the original clip.  Adding notes under the notes in the original clip will show the added notes in the cloned clip.

SH

They seem silly to you because you don't get it . Look: http://puretone.nl/flash/MIDI_Routing.swf

 
I hate to get in the middle of your 'discussion' but if this clip is suppose to show that editing the original clip does not affect the linked cloned clip it won't in this example since the added notes are outside the clip boundries of the original clip.  Adding notes under the notes in the original clip will show the added notes in the cloned clip.

That is exactly my point!

I am demonstrating that cloning a track is not really a solution at all because contrary to what John wrote, the tracks themselves are not linked. Only the existing Clips are linked (if one ticks that option).

So if someone is, for example, trying to control a sound layered from three synths, this really isn't much of a solution at all if one is used to adding notes by hand. The notes, if they are added outside an existing clip, will only be added to one of the tracks and thus will only trigger one of the layers.

UnderTow

Why do you have to go out of your way and write what you wrote about other people seeing it as a problem? Why don't you just present your way of working? Why do you have to go and dismiss the fact that others see it as an issue? And even before anyone even said anything! Why do you always insist on having to defend SONAR? Why can't you just see that there are more elegant solutions than cloning/copying tracks? And anyway, that comment misses the fact that copying/cloning is a cumbersome and limited solution. The tracks are not linked so when you add MIDI notes by hand to one track, you have to copy it to any other tracks routed to different layers. This is cumbersome. This is not elegant.

It is not my way it is the only way presently in Sonar. That is what you seem to miss.

Because I say I like it it is simply my opinion. I am allowed to do that. No matter what you think.


This thread has no bushiness being more then one page. But you come along and make a fight out out of it for no good reason. You do this all the time. It is getting very old.

the tracks themselves are not linked. Only the existing Clips are linked (if one ticks that option).

 
I see now, you are right.  Of course a solution would be to bounce all clips first before cloning then slip edit the original clip (left edge to 1:01:000 and the right edge to the end of the song) then the track would equal the clip.  (but what a pain...)

adrian4u


Andy,

As I wrote earlier - you can use "MIDI loopback". I tested it and it works as it should.
It's funny way, but it works.

Which one are you using? I tried in the past with LoopBe1 but each time I assign a new VST's MIDI track input to the LoopBe1 port, it "steals" it from the previously assigned channel. In other words, the MIDI data only arrives at one MIDI track in SONAR.

UnderTow

adrian4u


MIDI Yoke.

It works well in Ableton (i use it for FX automation sometimes) and with Sonar.
All you have to do is put as many synth as you wish (on separate tracks), then make one MIDI track with (in example) MIDI Yoke 1 port 1 out.
Then on the synth tracks, set "echo on", not "automatic", and chose MIDI INPUT to MIDI Yoke PORT 1 CH 1 - or OMNI.

Don't forget you can create up to 8 virtual midi ports using MIDI Yoke :)

I can't seem to install MIDI Yoke. Windows complains about it not being x64 compatible. Are you using version 1.75? Your .sig says you are on Win7/64. How do you get around it complaining about compatibility?

UnderTow

kb420


I really feel like different DAW's are aimed at different users.    I feel as though Sonar isn't aimed at someone who is serious about synthesizer sound design,  whereas Reason and especially Live are.   Sonar is perfect for someone who is serious about recording real instruments.  That's where it seems to shine the most.

Maybe part of the discontent of some Sonar users is the way the product has shifted. It started as a MIDI sequencer and added audio functionality later. At some point it was one of the quickest and most fluid DAWs on Windows for electronic music due to it's native ACID support, drag and drop effects and universal bus architecture. It also had a much better NRPN implementation compared to for instance Cubase. (I haven't checked in a very long time but you used to have to edit the MSB and LSB separately in Cubase. That was useless for me when I, for instance,  wanted to manually edit filter sweeps recorded from the Fc knob of my Andromeda which outputs NRPN data).

As time evolves it seems to be leaning more and more towards conventional audio recording. (No the Matrix View doesn't count as it is not sample accurately synced to the main Track View which to me completely defeats the purpose). Maybe this reflects the interest of the current CTO? I don't mean this badly but a jazz guitarist will probably have different functionality interests compared to an electronic musician for instance and might explain the weird disconnect when discussing things like routing busses and audio tracks to other audio tracks and Automation/Envelope Lanes and the single element editing approach of the Edit Filter. Oh and the broken Synth Rack since it was imprisoned in the browser.

Just a thought...

UnderTow

bitflipper

If CW were to implement a multi-out MIDI track, it would be an optical illusion like Instrument Tracks. You can't get around the need for separate information for each device/voice if you want to be able to specify separate routing, channel assignments, offsets, patches, and so on.

It wouldn't be separate data. It would be the exact same MIDI data routed to more than one destination. That is the whole point.

And you might call it an optical illusion but the whole DAW concept is really an optical illusion. It is all about making it easy, quick, efficient and intuitive for users to manage (music related) digital data. Adding the ability to route a MIDI track to several destinations would fit exactly in that goal.

Although I would never argue against an enhancement idea, I gotta say that the existing scheme works quite well for me and is not in the least bit limiting.

Do you do a lot of instrument layering? That is when these things become interesting. Or have a look at this (old) thread for some more examples of functionality possible with more extended MIDI routing:

http://forum.cakewalk.com...67&mpage=1#1573767

Now if I could get MIDI Yoke to work on Win 7/64...

UnderTow

UnderTow

adrian4u


MIDI Yoke.

It works well in Ableton (i use it for FX automation sometimes) and with Sonar.
All you have to do is put as many synth as you wish (on separate tracks), then make one MIDI track with (in example) MIDI Yoke 1 port 1 out.
Then on the synth tracks, set "echo on", not "automatic", and chose MIDI INPUT to MIDI Yoke PORT 1 CH 1 - or OMNI.

Don't forget you can create up to 8 virtual midi ports using MIDI Yoke :)

I can't seem to install MIDI Yoke. Windows complains about it not being x64 compatible. Are you using version 1.75? Your .sig says you are on Win7/64. How do you get around it complaining about compatibility?

UnderTow

try to run as Administrator, or try to use Maple MIDI or - i don't know - LoopBe? But I'm almost sure that LoopBe won't run on 64bit system.

adrian4u

I can't seem to install MIDI Yoke. Windows complains about it not being x64 compatible. Are you using version 1.75? Your .sig says you are on Win7/64. How do you get around it complaining about compatibility?

UnderTow

try to run as Administrator, or try to use Maple MIDI or - i don't know - LoopBe? But I'm almost sure that LoopBe won't run on 64bit system.

I am running as administrator so that isn't the issue. Btw LoopBe1/30 is actually 64 bit: http://nerds.de/en/download.html  Unfortunately it only allows one connection per application hence the "stealing" of the connection as soon as you assign it to a different track in Sonar.

I'll see if I can get the Mapple one to work...

UnderTow

UnderTow

kb420

Layering rack mount synths isn't new at all,  as a matter of fact,  it's been done for years.  It's a very simple concept.

Dare I call it MIDI 101 stuff? But I don't mean to demean John and Randy.

UnderTow

Good, UT, glad you don't mean to demean-ahem  - Saying that layering synths is MIDI 101 stuff is exactly what I said earlier on this silly thread, and back when I used hardware synths, it was a simple matter of just having units tuned to the same MIDI channel.

If someone needs or wants to hear the layers as they play soft synths, then they have some experimenting to do like you're doing with virtual MIDI cables.  But if pieces are being assembled/produced in Sonar, there's no actual need to hear the layers during the initial playing.  That's part of the production side of the recording, and is easily done with what already exists in Sonar. - Etc. ad nauseum, yaaaawn.

Randy - so bored with this thread