AndyDavis
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Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
I don't turn up much when I search for this, so it must be something that is really obvious.
I want to layer two instruments so that one track will play both. The ideal would be something like a Reason Combinator that could remember certain setups and recall them at will.
Any hints or ideas?
-Andy
Don't ask the question if you cannot live with the answer.
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adrian4u
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/26 22:37:47
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Phenom II x6 1100T (OC to 6x 4,1gHz), 8gB DDR3/1600gHz RAM, Win7/64; SONAR Producer X1c; Korgs: Z1, M50, Triton Rack, TRinity Rack; NI Maschine; Behringer BCF-R2000; MOTU 828mk3 FW; Edirol Edirol UA-1000; guitars: Cort Z-Custom, LAG JET100 totally customed, Cort SFX-DAO; some other music toys, one very musical cat  *************************************** Be patient for newbie ;)
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AndyDavis
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/26 22:59:12
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Damn. Anything less than $400?
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SH
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/26 23:07:47
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MIDI Yoke.
Can't remember where I got it (free). A little tricky to set up, but it works.
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John
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/26 23:24:12
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You want two softsynths to have the same input. In Sonar you will need to copy/clone the MID track and have the two out to the two synths.
Many see it as a problem I see it as a very simple thing to do.
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Glyn Barnes
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/26 23:55:16
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John
You want two softsynths to have the same input. In Sonar you will need to copy/clone the MID track and have the two out to the two synths.
Many see it as a problem I see it as a very simple thing to do.
+1 For me, having two tracks is more flexible in any case, Often I will quantatize or groove quantatize the cloned track slightly to give the effect of two different players or introduce an offset between the tracks when layering slow/fast attack sounds etc. Having said that there seems to be considerable demand for the ability to route a midi track to more than one output and I am surprised the feature has never been implemented.
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n0rd
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/27 01:39:13
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John
You want two softsynths to have the same input. In Sonar you will need to copy/clone the MID track and have the two out to the two synths.
Many see it as a problem I see it as a very simple thing to do.
+1...
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AndyDavis
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/27 01:42:11
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Don't ask the question if you cannot live with the answer.
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rbowser
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/27 01:42:27
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John
You want two softsynths to have the same input. In Sonar you will need to copy/clone the MID track and have the two out to the two synths.
Many see it as a problem I see it as a very simple thing to do.
+ many Ones. This is MIDI 101 stuff - but I don't mean to demean you, Andy, if you don't understand. MIDI data can be used to drive as many synths as you want. Like John said, you just make a new track which is directed to the second synth, and copy the same MIDI data to that track as you have in the first instance. The operation takes a few seconds, and is something which MIDI users do every day on a routine basis, and have done since Day One of using MIDI, even before computers were involved. Nothing fancier in Sonar is needed to implement what you're talking about. RB
Sonar X3e Studio Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller Alesis i|O2 interface Gigabyte Technology-AMD Phenom II @ 3 GHz 8 Gb RAM 6 Core Windows 7 Home Premium x64 with dual monitors
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gefitch
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/27 02:57:02
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rbowser
John
You want two softsynths to have the same input. In Sonar you will need to copy/clone the MID track and have the two out to the two synths.
Many see it as a problem I see it as a very simple thing to do.
+ many Ones.
This is MIDI 101 stuff - but I don't mean to demean you, Andy, if you don't understand. MIDI data can be used to drive as many synths as you want. Like John said, you just make a new track which is directed to the second synth, and copy the same MIDI data to that track as you have in the first instance. The operation takes a few seconds, and is something which MIDI users do every day on a routine basis, and have done since Day One of using MIDI, even before computers were involved. Nothing fancier in Sonar is needed to implement what you're talking about.
RB
This is what I typically do. To copy the data to the new track I use the <ctrl>+<shift>+drag if it's convenient, and then check "Copy entire clips as linked clips" if I think I might have to change the original source data. It will then be changed across all of those layered tracks. You cn break the link if you need to later. Gary
Gary Lian Li, Intel Core i7 CPU, 920 @ 2.67GHz, 12.0GB, Windows 7 Pro 64bit, 44.1/24bit (studiocat)
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frankandfree
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/27 03:48:00
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I can only talk about this MIDI user. My 101 was different.
Back then even MIDI tracks were a rare good in sequencers, so I wouldn't have wasted tracks for playing out the same data already present on another track. Besides, that would also have had negative impact on data density on the MIDI cable.
When I wanted to layer multiple instruments in the old days he daisy-chained the instruments via MIDI through, both listening to the same channel, so they both sound together. That would be more akin to the virtual MIDI cable workaround already mentioned. .
Another workaround is using a VSTi host, inserted in Sonar as plugin which holds the involved instruments. I believe EnergyXT can pull it off.
Also interesting is that everybody proposes a workaround which doesn't take a playing talent into account who will prefer to hear the layered sound when recording his part. You can handle this situation with Sonar by recording both tracks simultaneously, no problem. Could just be more straightforward and simple if Sonar allowed multiple outputs or - even more versatile - MIDI send routing.
But strange enough I've seen that many people on this forum don't like either concept.
I have seen this same discussion before on this board and am once more astonished that such a simple request for a rather common task gets any resentment. It wouldn't hinder anyone using multiple tracks like before, so you wouldn't even notice it's there. It would just make life easier for some.
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adrian4u
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/27 05:35:19
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OK, there is a way, but even more complicated :)
1. you have to install MIDI YOKE or similar virtual MIDI cable
2. you havve to create one MIDI track, and two (or more) synth tracks
3. put some notes and chords to the MIDI track, set the OUTPUT to MIDI YOKE 1, CH1
4. on your SYTH TRACKS TURN Echo ON, set up INPUTS to MIDI YOKE 1 CH 1
that's all, folks :D
Phenom II x6 1100T (OC to 6x 4,1gHz), 8gB DDR3/1600gHz RAM, Win7/64; SONAR Producer X1c; Korgs: Z1, M50, Triton Rack, TRinity Rack; NI Maschine; Behringer BCF-R2000; MOTU 828mk3 FW; Edirol Edirol UA-1000; guitars: Cort Z-Custom, LAG JET100 totally customed, Cort SFX-DAO; some other music toys, one very musical cat *************************************** Be patient for newbie ;)
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Chregg
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/27 05:56:55
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on the subject of reason what i'm yielding good results with ( and its not really what your looking for andy) is programing sounds in sonar, rendering the files, putting them into sample robot, set the loop ponits and then loads those sounds in the nn-xt, after two or 3 layers you have a completely new sound, then take the output of the nn-xt and route it into the thors inputs and use thors filters/lfo, plus with thors oscillators, you can achieve all sorts , just ma 2 pennies worth
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AndyDavis
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/27 18:29:56
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I understand what everyone is saying about copied tracks, but what I am really after is a layer rather than a doubled part. Specifically, something where the entire sound is perceived as being a combination of the two synths. The most obvious example would be a kick drum sample reinforced by a synth sound. I guess I could have spelled that a littler further in my original post.
At any rate, given that intent, while controlling the synths by putting them on separate tracks will work, it seams like a very unnatural way to go about things. Again, the Reason Combinator makes this trivial in that program, so I was curious if I was just missing something obvious in Sonar.
I will take another look at EnergyXT, I went by that web page and it looked like it had completely outgrown that purpose.
Chregg-
I may have to check that out as well.
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AndyDavis
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/27 18:31:08
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And Kore totally nails what I am after; but is a little more than my wallet can absorb at the moment.
Don't ask the question if you cannot live with the answer.
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A1MixMan
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/27 18:35:42
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Kore 2 is made to do this. Works perfectly. I've created some of the most amazing sounds very quickly and easily. It really is superpowerful. I have the full package with the controller and Komplete 7.
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A1MixMan
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/27 18:39:25
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John
You want two softsynths to have the same input. In Sonar you will need to copy/clone the MID track and have the two out to the two synths.
Many see it as a problem I see it as a very simple thing to do.
Does this method work while playing the keyboard live? Or only after recording the MIDI?
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John
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/27 18:43:18
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AndyDavis
I understand what everyone is saying about copied tracks, but what I am really after is a layer rather than a doubled part. Specifically, something where the entire sound is perceived as being a combination of the two synths. The most obvious example would be a kick drum sample reinforced by a synth sound. I guess I could have spelled that a littler further in my original post.
At any rate, given that intent, while controlling the synths by putting them on separate tracks will work, it seams like a very unnatural way to go about things. Again, the Reason Combinator makes this trivial in that program, so I was curious if I was just missing something obvious in Sonar.
I will take another look at EnergyXT, I went by that web page and it looked like it had completely outgrown that purpose.
Chregg-
I may have to check that out as well.
I guess you are not understanding the power of copying tracks and sending the outs to any synth you like. There is no restriction on what the copied track can send to. Plus you can edit it or add MFX to it. Just to be sure you do understand what you are trying to do is not just possible but very simple to do with a copied track. Its the same data going to different synths.
post edited by John - 2011/03/27 18:47:46
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AndyDavis
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/27 19:00:23
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I understand what you're saying. But, again, I am looking for a layer, not a doubled part.
Think of a four Element sound in Dimension or Rapture. Each element contributes to the entirety of the sound, you wouldn't want or expect to play them individually.
When I layer two synths, I am basically saying something to the effect of, I want two elements of Dimension Pro and two of Rapture. Again, they are perceived as one whole, so it is unnatural to play them from different tracks; adding MFX to one of the tracks would miss the point doubly.
I get the power of copying the track and that you can do wild things with the copied track, but that's really not the problem I am trying to solve.
Don't ask the question if you cannot live with the answer.
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Kroneborge
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/27 19:07:54
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John
AndyDavis
I understand what everyone is saying about copied tracks, but what I am really after is a layer rather than a doubled part. Specifically, something where the entire sound is perceived as being a combination of the two synths. The most obvious example would be a kick drum sample reinforced by a synth sound. I guess I could have spelled that a littler further in my original post.
At any rate, given that intent, while controlling the synths by putting them on separate tracks will work, it seams like a very unnatural way to go about things. Again, the Reason Combinator makes this trivial in that program, so I was curious if I was just missing something obvious in Sonar.
I will take another look at EnergyXT, I went by that web page and it looked like it had completely outgrown that purpose.
Chregg-
I may have to check that out as well.
I guess you are not understanding the power of copying tracks and sending the outs to any synth you like. There is no restriction on what the copied track can send to. Plus you can edit it or add MFX to it.
Just to be sure you do understand what you are trying to do is not just possible but very simple to do with a copied track. Its the same data going to different synths.
Sure, you can certainly copy it, but why not give the option for midi sends? Depending on your work flow sometimes you want separate tracks, and sometimes you want all the data in one. For example, when doing drums I normally separate kick, HH, and snare on midi too, just so I can bring them in and out easier. But if I wanted to layer say strings and piano, it sure would be nice to be able to have them trigger off the same midi track. Just because you CAN do it another way. Doesn't mean that it would be easier to have this functionality for those that need/want it.
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A1MixMan
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/27 19:15:23
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AndyDavis
I understand what you're saying. But, again, I am looking for a layer, not a doubled part.
Think of a four Element sound in Dimension or Rapture. Each element contributes to the entirety of the sound, you wouldn't want or expect to play them individually.
When I layer two synths, I am basically saying something to the effect of, I want two elements of Dimension Pro and two of Rapture. Again, they are perceived as one whole, so it is unnatural to play them from different tracks; adding MFX to one of the tracks would miss the point doubly.
I get the power of copying the track and that you can do wild things with the copied track, but that's really not the problem I am trying to solve.
Again, this is exactly Kore. Whoops, the Kore Player doesn't let you layer. Oh well, hopefully Kore 3 is on the way.
post edited by A1MixMan - 2011/03/27 19:23:35
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John
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/27 19:15:23
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Sure, you can certainly copy it, but why not give the option for midi sends? Depending on your work flow sometimes you want separate tracks, and sometimes you want all the data in one. I am not speculating. We don't have MIDI sends. All I am stating is this at present is a way to get the thing done. Sorry I fail to see any difference in the data from one track and data from two with the same data.
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AndyDavis
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/27 19:23:45
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A1MixMan
Again, this is exactly Kore. Have you tried the free Kore 2 Player? It has 50 sounds already that you can layer. And any additional sounds you buy.
Yes, Kore is what I am looking for (and then some). I haven't tried the free player because I want to be able to layer the instruments I already own, which the free player doesn't support (according to the NI website).
Don't ask the question if you cannot live with the answer.
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A1MixMan
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/27 19:24:43
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rbowser
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/27 19:29:57
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AndyDavis
I understand what you're saying. But, again, I am looking for a layer, not a doubled part.
Think of a four Element sound in Dimension or Rapture. Each element contributes to the entirety of the sound, you wouldn't want or expect to play them individually.
When I layer two synths, I am basically saying something to the effect of, I want two elements of Dimension Pro and two of Rapture. Again, they are perceived as one whole, so it is unnatural to play them from different tracks; adding MFX to one of the tracks would miss the point doubly.
I get the power of copying the track and that you can do wild things with the copied track, but that's really not the problem I am trying to solve.
Andy, what's being described with two tracks directed to two different synths is exactly the same thing as layers. Kick reinforced with a synth sound, that was a good example you gave - and combining the two tracks would get you exactly that sound, the two sounds mixed together as if they're one new morphed instrument. Randy B.
Sonar X3e Studio Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller Alesis i|O2 interface Gigabyte Technology-AMD Phenom II @ 3 GHz 8 Gb RAM 6 Core Windows 7 Home Premium x64 with dual monitors
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UnderTow
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/27 20:22:27
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rbowser
John
You want two softsynths to have the same input. In Sonar you will need to copy/clone the MID track and have the two out to the two synths.
Many see it as a problem I see it as a very simple thing to do.
+ many Ones.
This is MIDI 101 stuff -
- Infinity. Sorry but it is NOT MIDI 101 by any stretch of the imagination. It is much better if you can route a single MIDI track to multiple outputs so that you hear all the layers when you play a keyboard (or MIDI guitar or whatever controller)! Also, when you edit the single MIDI track, you instantly hear what you are doing on all the layers. Having to copy after each edit is cumbersome, slow and inelegant. There is no reason to assume you are only editing a single clip or adding new notes to an existing clip so the Copy as Linked Clips idea just doesn't work. Anyway, what is wrong with you guys? Would you really prefer that Cakewalk not add such a feature?  Stop arguing against feature suggestions. It is ridiculous! UnderTow
post edited by UnderTow - 2011/03/27 20:25:21
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rbowser
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/27 20:28:44
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UnderTow
Sorry but it is NOT MIDI 101 by any stretch of the imagination. It is much better etc...
Anyway, what is wrong with you guys? Would really prefer that Cakewalk not add such a feature? Stop arguing against feature suggestions. It is ridiculous!
UnderTow
Cool your jets, UnderTow - We're not arguing against Cakewalk adding a feature. We're just explaining a simple way to layer synths, which isn't the cumbersome thing you describe. That's great that you like to do it a different way. The way I work is fast, efficient, elegant - it works for me and for anyone who knows what they're doing. No need to get angry that some of us work in a different way. Randy B.
Sonar X3e Studio Roland A-800 MIDI keyboard controller Alesis i|O2 interface Gigabyte Technology-AMD Phenom II @ 3 GHz 8 Gb RAM 6 Core Windows 7 Home Premium x64 with dual monitors
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Kurtly
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/27 20:29:10
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John
Sure, you can certainly copy it, but why not give the option for midi sends? Depending on your work flow sometimes you want separate tracks, and sometimes you want all the data in one.
I am not speculating. We don't have MIDI sends. All I am stating is this at present is a way to get the thing done. Sorry I fail to see any difference in the data from one track and data from two with the same data.
The difference comes when you need to change something. You need to edit twice instead of once. I imagine midi-thru or multiple outputs would be fairly trivial to implement, it has always astounded me that Sonar doesn't have this ability. Especially when you consider the earliest versions of Cakewalk were midi only! This has only been a non-issue for me because I rarely work with midi.
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John
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/27 20:35:29
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Kurtly
John
Sure, you can certainly copy it, but why not give the option for midi sends? Depending on your work flow sometimes you want separate tracks, and sometimes you want all the data in one. I am not speculating. We don't have MIDI sends. All I am stating is this at present is a way to get the thing done. Sorry I fail to see any difference in the data from one track and data from two with the same data.
The difference comes when you need to change something. You need to edit twice instead of once. I imagine midi-thru or multiple outputs would be fairly trivial to implement, it has always astounded me that Sonar doesn't have this ability. Especially when you consider the earliest versions of Cakewalk were midi only!
This has only been a non-issue for me because I rarely work with midi.
Thats why you may wish to clone a track instead of copy. It will let you do an edit one the first track and it will show on the cloned track. They are linked.
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Kurtly
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Re:Best way to layer two or more virtual instruments?
2011/03/27 20:50:53
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John
Kurtly
John
Sure, you can certainly copy it, but why not give the option for midi sends? Depending on your work flow sometimes you want separate tracks, and sometimes you want all the data in one. I am not speculating. We don't have MIDI sends. All I am stating is this at present is a way to get the thing done. Sorry I fail to see any difference in the data from one track and data from two with the same data.
The difference comes when you need to change something. You need to edit twice instead of once. I imagine midi-thru or multiple outputs would be fairly trivial to implement, it has always astounded me that Sonar doesn't have this ability. Especially when you consider the earliest versions of Cakewalk were midi only!
This has only been a non-issue for me because I rarely work with midi.
Thats why you may wish to clone a track instead of copy. It will let you do an edit one the first track and it will show on the cloned track. They are linked.
Like I said, I rarely work with midi, that's good to know! I've only used clone track in audio to get the same sends/fx etc for a new track.
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