ORIGINAL: bitflipper

Glad to see this thread's still alive! 201 posts and over 5,000 views. Combined with the many similar threads on just about every other music-related forum on the 'net, maybe, just maybe we'll successfully get the word out.

It'll take a lot to counter testimonials like this one: Steve Tyler Monster Cable Ad. At least he doesn't attempt to make any technical arguments.

not very impressed by the ad...just basic "famous-person-marketing-our-product" concepts.

i have some studio link 500 stuff. it's really not bad. I've never liked the sound from hosa and my studiolink cables sound quite a bit better. they are definitely almost up to par with the pro co stuff i've got (some of which can be very expensive).

i would like to invest in some canare or mogami though eventually. the monster stuff i have i always bought off ebay and probably paid less than i would have for hosa. so i don't feel bad about it. no broken connectors just yet either.

i think it would be fun to get some liquid nitrogen cooled cables though. i'm sure any cable that becomes cold enough to be a super-conductor is going to have a pretty noticeable change in sound quality...

ORIGINAL: joshhunsaker
...i think it would be fun to get some liquid nitrogen cooled cables though. i'm sure any cable that becomes cold enough to be a super-conductor is going to have a pretty noticeable change in sound quality...

What wogg said.

It is sometimes easy to forget that audio is pretty rudimentary stuff, electrical-wise, and that the frequency and dynamic range of human hearing does not include information that is very difficult to accurately transmit as electrical signal, relatively speaking.

A lot of the talk about esoteric conductivity improvements are really so much woowoo when it comes to audio.

Ordinary copper is perfectly capable of maintaining phase coherence up to about the speed of light, and in a well-designed cable, signal loss in sensible studio applications is really approaching levels that are purely academic/theoretical. Any "inadequacies" in ordinary high-quality copper conductors are for instance dwarfed by things like atmospheric pressure differences due to proximity to sea level, or whether you have a beard or long hair, dust particles on the speaker cone, what kind of clothing you are wearing as you listen, and so on.

But anyway, whether monster makes good cables or bad is not really the point of this thread, and I for one would prefer a new thread to discuss cable theory if anyone cares. This is a good one to keep on-topic, I think.

Cheers.

Hey Losguy,
I did the research regarding the Tripp Lite power conditioner and the price was within pennies of the same for the Furman that I wanted. Honestly, the Tripp Lite seems to have features that are not applicable to my gigging situation so I feel like I'm paying for things unnecessary to my goals. For example, the included phone line jacks, satellite and cable connector support will never be used once my GT-Pro and BBE Sonic Maximizer are installed in my rack system. I guess if I planed to watch cable TV and take incoming calls on stage, it might make sense. I'm a big fan of buying exactly what I need and no more. They make great products and if this rig would be used exclusively at home, it would be a good idea. I just wanted you to know that I did the research as stated and I appreciate you turning me on to another vendor of merit.

thanks,
Chipstar

chipstar, i don't know about tripp-lite but APC makes prosumer UPSes without phone and cable jacks. don't know how much the furman was but a smartUPS 750 will put you back about $240-$250 or so and runs 3 servers without breaking a sweat. plus it's got an indicator of how close you are to maxing the load. just food for thought of course, but i'll probably get one of those to run my stuff off of when my current UPS goes down.

well for one, they probably are transmitting digital signals which are still susceptible to interference but not nearly as much as analog sound. however, i do agree that munster's "technology" is not likely to benefit anyone in an audible manner.

ORIGINAL: Jessie Sammler
Boutique cables are for hobbyists who enjoy the cables for their own sake. They get pleasure from buying and owning something that's well-made and looks cool; most of them probably don't care if they sound any different. The exotic materials are part of the package; they help project an aura of coolness.

Monster is the Wonder Bread of high-end cables. There are companies that do things with their cables that go beyond just thicker wire or different materials; check out MIT of Rocklin, CA.

Hey, Jessie... I'm familiar with MIT, and have three of their cables with the capacitor networks (two speaker cables and one fo the Bass Guitar-specific instrument cables). They do sound different than regular cables... but not different enough to justify the 5x expenditure it would have cost to buy them had the store I picked them up from not been blowing them out.

I do think you've hit the nail on the head: Boutique cables are about bragging rights, not about sound quality. I'd bet most of them CARE if they sound different, I just doubt if they can TELL. A number of people I know who consider themselves 'audiophiles' have the tinnest ears I've met. Ugh. What they say sounds good sounds terrible to me.

It's an interesting industry... filled with much voodoo. Bose and Monster - two disgusting companies who's claims are rarely based in reality.

Corey

A number of people I know who consider themselves 'audiophiles' have the tinnest ears I've met. Ugh. What they say sounds good sounds terrible to me.

I knew an audio/video salesman who used to approach customer objections based on sound by starting out, "Well, everybody hears differently, and... " I wonder if some people become "audiophiles" because they have bad hearing and don't know it, and they set out on some Quixotic quest to find a system that makes things sound good to them. By the time they're circling in on ultimate satisfaction, they've got something that sounds so jacked-up that musically-inclined folks with normal hearing would go running from the room upon giving it a listen.

Lets try to test the theory: Have you known any self-styled audiophiles who had really good or great-sounding systems? I've known plenty. I've lived and worked among them.

Most audiophiles do have nice systems, because they have spent a great deal of money on them. Much more than necessary, typically.

The phenomenon has been around since the advent of "hi-fi" in the 60's, when there was a big boost in quality, fueled by widespread interest in stereo. Stereo went from being a curiosity to universal acceptance over the course of that decade. I still remember the first stereo recording I ever heard played on a stereo. It was Magical Mystery Tour. I immediately realized that there was stuff going on in recordings that I hadn't been hearing before, and set about to determine what else was in there that I'd been missing. I found out that there were low frequencies in there that I hadn't heard before, because my speakers were too small. So I got bigger speakers. Then I found out that you need the right kind of speaker enclosure to get those lows. And on and on.

At some point my sound system got good enough that I could hear things like harmonic distortion. Sure enough, an amplifer with 1% THD sounded better than one with 3% THD. But there are diminishing returns. An amplifier with 0.1% THD does not sound different from one with 0.5% THD. Event with 5 times the distortion, the latter is still below the threshhold of perception with anything other than a test tone.

But nobody wants to admit they can't hear the difference, although they fear that someone else can, and will scoff at their high-fidelity system. So the simple solution is to buy very expensive components with great specs. Then you're covered, even if you can't actually hear the difference yourself. Or if, in fact there is any difference at all.

We tend to associate high prices with high quality, even though common sense says that's not always true. Marketers have discovered that if you charge a high price, consumers will presume a high level of quality. If they lack the means to objectively verify that assumption, the lie escapes discovery.

Now the most curious aspect of all this is that people will swear they really can hear subtle differences. I suspect that many are not lying about it, but genuinely believe they hear a difference. And once you've subjectively heard or seen something with your own senses, no amount of objective measurement will dissuade you from believing what you heard or saw.

Try this experiment. Sit somebody down in front of your stereo and play a few seconds of music. Then tell them that you've noticed that the stereo sounds better after it's warmed up. Leave the room for 10 minutes, then come back and play the same music. Ask your subject if he or she can hear the difference. (Note: you're not asking if there IS a difference, only if they can HEAR the difference. The presumption is that there is a difference)

Nearly every time, the subject will hear a difference. Why? Who knows? Maybe they're not sitting in exactly the same position as previously. Whatever the reason, they DO hear a difference.

High-end cable makers love to cite A/B tests to validate their claims. But it's the same scenario. Tell the listener the fancy cables will sound better, and they will. But no cable manufacturer actually submits to double-blind tests! If they did, they'd find that listeners randomly choose A or B as sounding better.

Umm, I'm rambling again. Is it 5:00 yet?

It would be awfully nice if those who wish to further discuss generalized notions of audio quality could start a new thread, since this is a good one and is in danger of spinning off into a series of disagreements that have nothing whatever to do with the topic at hand.

Cheers.

ORIGINAL: mwd

ORIGINAL: lazarous ~ Bose and Monster - two disgusting companies who's claims are rarely based in reality.
Corey

Hey Corey bring me up to speed as to why Bose is being included in this. I know why Monster is.

While I realize Bose is a "niche" and targeted product I've actually heard some pretty good sounding Bose gear.

Twas' a few years ago.

What'd they do.... or not do?

Bose has, on occassion and accidentally, made some nice little systems that work for the average person. However, the costs involved in MAKING those systems, and what they SELL the systems for should be illegal. Their budget is 85% marketing/10% cost/5% R&D, as far as I can tell... And I might be being generous about the R&D.

How Monstar and Bose are similar, in my eyes: They both overmarket a product that is, at BEST, mediocre and overpriced. You can ALWAYS find a competing product for substantially less, which sounds better.

ORIGINAL: Jessie Stamler
Lets try to test the theory: Have you known any self-styled audiophiles who had really good or great-sounding systems? I've known plenty. I've lived and worked among them.

Most of them have a system that sounds pretty darn good. A few have systems that cost a fortune and sound like poo, at least to me.

Anyone who spends $3k on an esoteric power cable, which he/she then plugs into a $.59 wall outlet, should be drawn and quartered. I've seen it, and he didn't bat an eye. He could HEAR a difference. No one else in the room could. Whatever.

Corey

ORIGINAL: Jessie Sammler

Anyone who spends $3k on an esoteric power cable, which he/she then plugs into a $.59 wall outlet, should be drawn and quartered.

Most people who are into aftermarket power cords are using replacement outlets, as well. Shunyata, PS Audio, etc.

LOL.

Are they also using aftermarket circuit breakers, service disconnects, THHN wire, wire nuts, Romex, aluminum power lines from the utility grid, electric meters, street transformers, and all the other stuff that introduces orders of magnitude more irregularity and noise into power lines than outlets and power cables?

Seriously, this audiophile stuff is a line of discussion that has been going on forever and will continue to do so. Even if we think it is an open-and-shut case it is obviously not going to be an open-and-shut conversation. Could we please move it offline if people wish to debate the merits of conventional vs. super-premium cables and such?

Cheers.

slightly off-topic but a friend was telling me today how he's replaced all the interconnect cables in the studio with digital cable - the stuff you use for Spdif etc.

He reckons it's a big improvement over normal audio cable,- the theory being it's screening has to be that much better.

Kind regards

Dave Rich

ORIGINAL: Brett
...Now can we stop this stupid audiophile crap?

Or at least move it over here:

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.asp?m=1227457&mpage=1&key=�

Cheers.

Hey Guys,
I appreciate the heads up and the advice. I just made a substantial Mogami cable order instead of Monster. We'll see how things sound. I saw conflicting review but it was usually Monster fans saying Mogami sucks so who really knows. I've got a theory that bad juju makes for bad music so I'm sticking with ethical companies.

later,
Chipstar

guess i better watch my back then. also, boycott monster cable.