Helpful ReplyError Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3

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mcdonalk
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/12 04:23:57 (permalink)
Mudgel & Msorrel:
 
I have tried your suggestions with no luck. My audio interface is a Lynx L22 connected to an Aurora 8, using the Lynx ASIO driver. I have posted a query on the Lynx forum to see if this issue may be due to a driver limitation.
 
I have not yet tried msorrels' suggestion to use the MME driver within RX4; I'll give that a try Tuesday AM.
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mudgel
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/12 08:56:57 (permalink)
I'll wait to hear from you and take it from there.

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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mcdonalk
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/13 00:37:53 (permalink)
My registry entry is as follows:


[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Cakewalk Music Software\Tools Menu\RX 4]
"ExePath"="C:\\music software\\iZotope\\RX 4\\Win64\\iZotope RX 4.exe"
"MenuText"="&RX 4"
"StatusBarText"="Run RX 4"
"Type"="WaveEditor"
"RegionFlag"=dword:00000000
 
Also, I am working with Lynx Technical Support who has asked me to report back on some observations.
 
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mudgel
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/13 01:26:08 (permalink)
Thanks for the info Keith.

I hope to get a chance this evening to do a little work on this issue. That is, experimenting on my setup to confirm the various interactions.
I'll catch up with you after you hear back from Lynx tech support.

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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mcdonalk
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/13 22:11:03 (permalink)
Mudgel, and update:
 
Based on direction from Lynx Technical Support, I have tried to operate various audio sources simultaneously and have reported the results back to Lynx:
 http://www.lynxstudio.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5651&PID=32265&#32265
 
At this point, I don't know what to conclude.  RX4 (ASIO) and Windows Media Player (MME, presumably) can output audio simultaneously when configured for different channels of the Lynx mixer, but not when configured for the same channel. However, when Sonar and RX4 are configured either to use the same output audio channels or different ones, the behavior is the same: RX4 indicates an error. In my experience over the past 15 years, Lynx has the best and fastest technical support of any vendor of any of my other acquisitions, so we shall see.
post edited by mcdonalk - 2015/05/13 22:18:08
#35
mudgel
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/13 22:50:44 (permalink)
Well. Strange things are afoot.
 
Now I can't get any file to pass to RX4 or SoundForge 11.
Previously RX4 would open with the error message as discussed earlier and would continue but after adding the DWORD entry to the Registry, RX4 opens, shows the error and after closing the dialog doesn't do anything and SF11 which previously worked fine says it can't find the Tool Copy*****.wav
 
On exporting the RX4 key I seem to have a spurious entry @=""
If I delete the RegionFlag entry then RX4 opens with the error but on exporting the registry entry there is no spurious data.
If I add the RegionFlag entry into the SF11 registry key and export it there is no spurious data. SF11 just does not receive a toolcopy file from Sonar.
 
 
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Cakewalk Music Software\Tools Menu\iZotope RX 4 Adv]
"MenuText"="&RX 4"
"Type"="WaveEditor"
"StatusBarText"="Run izotope RX 4"
"exePath"="C:\\Program Files (x86)\\iZotope\\RX 4\\win64\\iZotope RX 4.exe"
@=""
"RegionFlag"=dword:00000000
post edited by mudgel - 2015/05/13 23:19:08

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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#36
scook
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/13 22:53:17 (permalink)
Bad registry entry. The Generic type does not pass a file argument. Use WaveEditor type.  I would also eliminate the @ key.
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mudgel
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/13 23:11:44 (permalink)
Yeh I know. I tried Generic to see what would happen. I copied the text from that entry into the post instead of the edited one.
I forgot I changed it back to WaveEditor but despite the RegionFlag entry I still get the error in RX4 and on exporting I still get the spurious @="" which is not a key in the registry it appears at export.

If I delete it from the reg key and run that to update the registry, on export the spurious data is back. I have no idea where it comes from.
post edited by mudgel - 2015/05/13 23:18:26

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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mudgel
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/13 23:19:08 (permalink)
mcdonalk
Mudgel, and update:
 
Based on direction from Lynx Technical Support, I have tried to operate various audio sources simultaneously and have reported the results back to Lynx:
 http://www.lynxstudio.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=5651&PID=32265縉
 
At this point, I don't know what to conclude.  RX4 (ASIO) and Windows Media Player (MME, presumably) can output audio simultaneously when configured for different channels of the Lynx mixer, but not when configured for thre same channel. However, when Sonar and RX4 are configured either to use the same output audio channels or different ones, the behavior is the same: RX4 indicates an error. In my experience over the past 15 years, Lynx has the best and fastest technical support of any vendor of any of my other acquisitions, so we shall see.

Im not sure what I can do. I'm having my own troubles now. I did however try an experiment with Sonar and RX4.
I set them up individually to use the same driver and audio output and loaded audio files into each and played them. With Sonar set to Share drivers, both programs played their respective audio files when their windows had focus.

UPDATE: see post #43.
post edited by mudgel - 2015/05/14 00:02:43

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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#39
scook
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/13 23:23:54 (permalink)
Do you run SONAR as administrator? If so, I believe you will need to setup the other programs with the same permissions.
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mudgel
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/13 23:28:55 (permalink)
I haven't tried that yet. I didn't have to before but who knows what's going on. So I'll try that and post back.

I haven't used the tools copy feature for a few months so I don't understand what could have changed, but then again there's been a few windows updates I. That time too.

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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#41
scook
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/13 23:33:56 (permalink)
There is also a typo in key ExePath, your example shows exePath.
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mudgel
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/14 00:01:11 (permalink)
scook
Do you run SONAR as administrator? If so, I believe you will need to setup the other programs with the same permissions.


OK. I've tried running the programs involved, Sonar, RX4 and SF11 as administrator. I made the change on the executable file not just an icon. No change. Still doesn't work.
RX4 opens, tells me it can't open Tool copy ***.wav. Once I clear the error it just sits there. The RX4 status bar (left bottom) says No file data.
SF11 just opens with an error saying it can't load the tool copy file but it uses a path that doesn't exist that is. C:/Program Files (x86)/Sony/Sound Forge 11/2/tool copy******.wav.
I don't know why it creates the folder '2' as it doesn't exist.

I've yet to try changin all programs to NOT run as admin but I can't see that making a difference.

Update for mcdonalk:
When I load up an audio file into RX4, Sonar and SF11, I can select ASIO for all three programs with the same outputs and play all 3 files simultaneously without issue. It doesn't matter which program has focus.

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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#43
msorrels
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/14 00:55:51 (permalink)
Here's my registry entry.  I've never seen that extra entry appearing though.
 
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Cakewalk Music Software\Tools Menu\7iZotope RX 4]
"ExePath"="D:\\Apps\\iZotope\\RX 4\\win64\\iZotope RX 4.exe"
"MenuText"="iZotope RX 4"
"StatusBarText"="Run iZotope RX 4"
"Type"="WaveEditor"
"RegionFlag"=dword:00000000


Important to note, the reg text dump shows paths with double slashes, but inside regedit they are just single slashes.
 
I never run anything as Admin (though my account does have full escalation rights).
 
One thing that is kind of strange about Platinum (that I don't remember seeing in X3e) is I can't open a wave editor on a Groove looped audio clip.  Only "plain" audio.  It may have always been like that though,  I just can't remember.
 
As for what/who/when that extra registry entry is coming from the best tool for debugging that is the Microsoft SysInternals tool Procmon.  It can log every single file and registry access any software makes.  I often use it to work out why software has gone wrong and to figure out what software is looking for.
 
https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb896645
 
Bad news though, it's very technical and not exactly a end-user tool.
 
As for the multiple apps sharing the driver problem it really depends on the driver developer.  Some are better at sharing than others.  My Saffire will share (with or without the Sonar checkbox) as long as every ASIO app agrees on the sample settings (48khz).  Software that uses MME mode will share anything, it's only the ASIO driver that has control issues.  Hence my reason for letting Sonar have the ASIO and my wave editors use the MME device.  This works because (for example) other apps can still play bells/Skype notifications/YouTube/Browser sounds/etc) even when Sonar is open.  The MME driver is much more flexible than ASIO drivers.
 
Running Sonar as Admin will vastly effect how it launches other apps.  And those other apps may not be very friendly when running under settings they weren't installed with.  Temporary file paths are very different.  Access rights are different.  The registry is different.  Network file shares mounted as the user may not be available.  It's just a bad idea to run software as Admin without a very good reason a full understanding of what that may involve.
 
If I were having problems I'd use Procmon to record everything and look at what files Sonar and the wave editor are accessing and then try and figure out why/change that so it's correct.  I'd also consider deleting all the tool menu entries from the registry except one (back them up with regedit).  Might want to reboot once too (though usually that's a fools errand).
 
One handy tip, Sonar sorts the tool menu (technically the menu is now called Utilities but the second half of the Utilities menu (after the seperator) is the "Tools" menu) using the names of the registry entries (which isn't the same as what is shown to the user) so you can stick a number in front of the name in order to control the order.  As you can see above my RX4 entry is named "7iZotope RX 4" since I want it to show up 8th on the tools menu.  (I have tools numbered 0-7).
 
 
 
#44
Sanderxpander
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/14 03:56:08 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby John T 2015/05/15 14:46:21
Am I the only that finds this whole process ridiculously complicated for an end user? Why isn't there an "add Wave Editor" dialog or something that simply lets you point to a program and give the menu item a name? I'm pretty sure most DAWs work that way.
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mudgel
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/14 04:17:45 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
Am I the only that finds this whole process ridiculously complicated for an end user? Why isn't there an "add Wave Editor" dialog or something that simply lets you point to a program and give the menu item a name? I'm pretty sure most DAWs work that way.


1. I don't know of any other daws that let you pass internal audio to an external editor and save it back.

2. As per Noel's post #12 in the following thread the feature is undocumented and unsupported.
http://forum.cakewalk.com...-m1849148.aspx#1850413
3. There was a 3rd party utility that was called Sonar Utils, that used to do what you ask and more. Unfortunately it was never updated to work for Sonar x64 so we lost the feature. The gent that developed it left off using Sonar.

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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#46
mudgel
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/14 04:25:42 (permalink)
msorrels
Here's my registry entry.  I've never seen that extra entry appearing though.
 
[HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Cakewalk Music Software\Tools Menu\7iZotope RX 4]
"ExePath"="D:\\Apps\\iZotope\\RX 4\\win64\\iZotope RX 4.exe"
"MenuText"="iZotope RX 4"
"StatusBarText"="Run iZotope RX 4"
"Type"="WaveEditor"
"RegionFlag"=dword:00000000



Important to note, the reg text dump shows paths with double slashes, but inside regedit they are just single slashes.
 
I never run anything as Admin (though my account does have full escalation rights).
 
One thing that is kind of strange about Platinum (that I don't remember seeing in X3e) is I can't open a wave editor on a Groove looped audio clip.  Only "plain" audio.  It may have always been like that though,  I just can't remember.
 
As for what/who/when that extra registry entry is coming from the best tool for debugging that is the Microsoft SysInternals tool Procmon.  It can log every single file and registry access any software makes.  I often use it to work out why software has gone wrong and to figure out what software is looking for.
 
https://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/sysinternals/bb896645
 
Bad news though, it's very technical and not exactly a end-user tool.
 
As for the multiple apps sharing the driver problem it really depends on the driver developer.  Some are better at sharing than others.  My Saffire will share (with or without the Sonar checkbox) as long as every ASIO app agrees on the sample settings (48khz).  Software that uses MME mode will share anything, it's only the ASIO driver that has control issues.  Hence my reason for letting Sonar have the ASIO and my wave editors use the MME device.  This works because (for example) other apps can still play bells/Skype notifications/YouTube/Browser sounds/etc) even when Sonar is open.  The MME driver is much more flexible than ASIO drivers.
 
Running Sonar as Admin will vastly effect how it launches other apps.  And those other apps may not be very friendly when running under settings they weren't installed with.  Temporary file paths are very different.  Access rights are different.  The registry is different.  Network file shares mounted as the user may not be available.  It's just a bad idea to run software as Admin without a very good reason a full understanding of what that may involve.
 
If I were having problems I'd use Procmon to record everything and look at what files Sonar and the wave editor are accessing and then try and figure out why/change that so it's correct.  I'd also consider deleting all the tool menu entries from the registry except one (back them up with regedit).  Might want to reboot once too (though usually that's a fools errand).
 
One handy tip, Sonar sorts the tool menu (technically the menu is now called Utilities but the second half of the Utilities menu (after the seperator) is the "Tools" menu) using the names of the registry entries (which isn't the same as what is shown to the user) so you can stick a number in front of the name in order to control the order.  As you can see above my RX4 entry is named "7iZotope RX 4" since I want it to show up 8th on the tools menu.  (I have tools numbered 0-7).
 

All I've fixed so far is the spurious @="". I exported the key, made corrections including putting all the entries in alphabetical order. I deleted the keys and reimported the edited version. All good. Yay. HOWEVER
I still can't make it work.
For some reason instead of passing the tool copy file to the Temp folder as in your example it wants to put it into a folder named '2' in Sonarplt.exe home folder. Which it does.
It wants to do this for SF11, RX4 by looking for a folder '2' in their respective home directories. Even if I create one there it doesn't work. The file from Sonar is placed into C:/Program Files/Cakewalk/Sonar/2/. But not copied to the respective program

So strange. I'll keep searching the millions of entries in ProcMon.

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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#47
mudgel
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/14 04:51:10 (permalink)
Yipppppeeeeeeee!

Found the problem.

Sonar's Cakewalk.ini file has an entry for ToolFileDir= ( I accidentally had (=2) should be = )

A few months back I edited cakewalk.ini for VstPluginsFormat=2 and by some typo the numeral 2 carried over to the above entry which was just a couple of lines higher up.

The value should be unqualified just as I have it written above. ie. =

Once I did that, tool copy placed the file In the temp folder and all tool programs were able to find it. Yay phew!!

Mike V. (MUDGEL)

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Sanderxpander
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/14 06:28:44 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby John T 2015/05/15 14:47:41
mudgel
Sanderxpander
Am I the only that finds this whole process ridiculously complicated for an end user? Why isn't there an "add Wave Editor" dialog or something that simply lets you point to a program and give the menu item a name? I'm pretty sure most DAWs work that way.


1. I don't know of any other daws that let you pass internal audio to an external editor and save it back.

2. As per Noel's post #12 in the following thread the feature is undocumented and unsupported.
3. There was a 3rd party utility that was called Sonar Utils, that used to do what you ask and more. Unfortunately it was never updated to work for Sonar x64 so we lost the feature. The gent that developed it left off using Sonar.

1. I know for a fact at least Ableton and Logic do this and simply let you browse for your preferred wave editor. Not sure about other DAWs but it seems a pretty common feature to me.
2. If undocumented and unsupported perhaps they need to take down this document
https://www.cakewalk.com/...e-to-SONARs-Tools-menu
from the support site. Seems pretty bad policy to me to direct users to hack their registry.
3. I know it's harsh but I don't think I should need to care about why they haven't developed this. It has been in this state for years. Whatever excuse they had has long since evaporated. I really hope this will be part of an oncoming update, it isn't exactly something complicated.
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mcdonalk
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/15 11:56:59 (permalink)
I am still working the issue with Lynx, providing daily reports on observations that they request.
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mudgel
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/16 01:11:33 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
mudgel
Sanderxpander
Am I the only that finds this whole process ridiculously complicated for an end user? Why isn't there an "add Wave Editor" dialog or something that simply lets you point to a program and give the menu item a name? I'm pretty sure most DAWs work that way.


1. I don't know of any other daws that let you pass internal audio to an external editor and save it back.

2. As per Noel's post #12 in the following thread the feature is undocumented and unsupported.
3. There was a 3rd party utility that was called Sonar Utils, that used to do what you ask and more. Unfortunately it was never updated to work for Sonar x64 so we lost the feature. The gent that developed it left off using Sonar.

1. I know for a fact at least Ableton and Logic do this and simply let you browse for your preferred wave editor. Not sure about other DAWs but it seems a pretty common feature to me.
2. If undocumented and unsupported perhaps they need to take down this document
https://www.cakewalk.com/...e-to-SONARs-Tools-menu
from the support site. Seems pretty bad policy to me to direct users to hack their registry.
3. I know it's harsh but I don't think I should need to care about why they haven't developed this. It has been in this state for years. Whatever excuse they had has long since evaporated. I really hope this will be part of an oncoming update, it isn't exactly something complicated.


It seems from years past that programs like Sound Forge would automatically be available in Sonar's Tools Menu.

Whatever that process was developers are no longer doing it leaving us to have to do it manually. As Noël said, it predates his work at Sonar. Clearly we're talking about legacy code unfamiliar to the current development crew.

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#51
mudgel
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/16 01:12:05 (permalink)
mcdonalk
I am still working the issue with Lynx, providing daily reports on observations that they request.


All the best, I hope you get it sorted.

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Sanderxpander
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/16 04:38:15 (permalink)
Automatic would be great. But since they already know exactly which registry keys to create it should be pretty easy to create a simple "browse for editor" mini app that adds those keys. That has very little to do with legacy code.
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mudgel
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/16 05:16:41 (permalink)
I mean the current crew of developers who create programs like Sound Forge and that their code is legacy as they are no longer making their tools available in Sonar as they used to.

Read all of Noel's comments in that linked thread. That's what he said.

I don't really have a dog in this fight. I simply started in an effort to help folks put in the correct registry entries. And pointing to additional info supplied by Noel.
Perhaps you should put in a feature request.

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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/16 05:53:55 (permalink)
I'm glad for all your efforts, they helped me, thanks!
I'm just somewhat peeved that they are necessary to begin with ;)
Sonar is simply lagging a bit behind the competition in this respect. It's ahead in others, so meh.
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/16 08:19:05 (permalink)
sound forge (pc version) hasn't changed for quite a few years now... i read the linked thread, noels comments, he doesn't say anything about "programs like Sound Forge and that their code is legacy as they are no longer making their tools available in Sonar as they used to" not even close...? but at least he shares the registry hacks needed to make external apps work (thanks noel!)

just a sec

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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/16 09:24:46 (permalink)
pwalpwal
sound forge (pc version) hasn't changed for quite a few years now... i read the linked thread, noels comments, he doesn't say anything about "programs like Sound Forge and that their code is legacy as they are no longer making their tools available in Sonar as they used to" not even close...? but at least he shares the registry hacks needed to make external apps work (thanks noel!)


I didn't quote Noël. I said "that" or "what" in connection with what Noël said. I was paraphrasing.
You need to read the linked thread entirely and you will see that Noël talked about code that existed before he was at Cakewalk and a time when Sound Forge automatically installed the link for the Tools Menu. I even remember when Sound Forge did that. Probably as long ago as SF 6 or 7.

2 of Noel's posts from that thread that form the basis of my comments.

Quote from post #16
Noël Borthwick IIRC it was to solve the converse problem. When I did plugin manager integration I needed it to be non modal and added a bunch of new items to the tool options like the parent window etc.
Some of the tools menu settings have been around a *long* time - since the pro audio days or earlier, and dates back before my time at Cakewalk.


Quote from post #17
Noël Borthwick
Dan, Its cool that it works now. Some tools require the current directory to be set.
You might want to post your reg settings for other users of RX. Also you could let Izotope know in case they want to self register this when RX installs. Sound Forge used to do this years ago.

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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/16 10:10:49 (permalink)
If I understand you correctly, this was something SoundForge developers baked into their installation? So Sonar has basically never offered any easy adding of a wave editor through their own procedure?
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/16 10:19:09 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
If I understand you correctly, this was something SoundForge developers baked into their installation? So Sonar has basically never offered any easy adding of a wave editor through their own procedure?


I think more like Sonar provided the hook and when SF was registered as your default wave editor it automatically registered in the menu. That's only a vague memory though. Clearly the hook is in Sonar but I'm no computer guru so only have a very superficial understanding of what needs to happen from a programming perspective.

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John T
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Re: Error Message with iZotope RX 3 as WaveEditor in SONAR X3 2015/05/16 10:54:26 (permalink)
Yeah, it was a nice method. Sonar has the capability to read in the registry hook as long as it's there. It was basically something that people making editors would support, and they'd just appear in Sonar. But I think like anything non-standardised, support for it has waned over the years.
 
To be fair to Cakewalk, this dates back at least to 1996, and this kind of functionality didn't appear in other daws for years. Several still don't do anything like it.

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