Fleer
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Re: Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?
2017/06/08 23:38:23
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Barry? Manilow? Is dat yoo?
"We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl" (Wish You Were Here)
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S.L.I.P.
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Re: Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?
2017/06/09 00:50:16
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They were a band. They didn't come in a box. Most came by car, but one of them came by bus.
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Fleer
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Re: Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?
2017/06/09 02:13:00
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"We're just two lost souls swimming in a fish bowl" (Wish You Were Here)
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abacab
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Re: Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?
2017/06/09 19:25:47
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☄ Helpfulby Fleer 2017/06/10 01:49:40
Fleer
Def not Barry then.
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noynekker
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Re: Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?
2017/06/15 02:32:55
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Using Band In a Box (yes I have it) you're only cheating yourself if you intend to create unique and original song ideas . . . if you use it to create commercial jingles and elevator musak . . . it's just business as usual.
I tried to use it as a creative tool to generate song ideas many years ago, but it never lead to anything memorable.
When I have used it to create in a jingle based business environment, well, let's just say . . . it payed for the cost of the software.
Cakewalk by Bandlab, Cubase, RME Babyface Pro, Intel i7 3770K @3.5Ghz, Asus P8Z77-VPro/Thunderbolt, 32GB DDR3 RAM, GeForce GTX 660 Ti, 250 GB OS SSD, 2TB HDD samples, Win 10 Pro 64 bit, backed up by Macrium Reflect, Novation Impulse 61 Midi Key Controller, Tannoy Active Near Field Monitors, Guitars by Vantage, Gibson, Yamaki and Ovation.
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abacab
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Re: Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?
2017/06/15 02:49:18
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noynekker
Using Band In a Box (yes I have it) you're only cheating yourself if you intend to create unique and original song ideas . . . if you use it to create commercial jingles and elevator musak . . . it's just business as usual.
I tried to use it as a creative tool to generate song ideas many years ago, but it never lead to anything memorable.
When I have used it to create in a jingle based business environment, well, let's just say . . . it payed for the cost of the software.
I think it is more like a mirror, and reflects who you are. It is what you make it. And it can be a traditional music education in a box, if you allow it ...
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noynekker
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Re: Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?
2017/06/15 03:03:35
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r abacab
noynekker
Using Band In a Box (yes I have it) you're only cheating yourself if you intend to create unique and original song ideas . . . if you use it to create commercial jingles and elevator musak . . . it's just business as usual.
I tried to use it as a creative tool to generate song ideas many years ago, but it never lead to anything memorable.
When I have used it to create in a jingle based business environment, well, let's just say . . . it payed for the cost of the software.
I think it is more like a mirror, and reflects who you are. It is what you make it. And it can be a traditional music education in a box, if you allow it ...
I won't deny it has an educational value, if that's your intention of how to use it, I'm just wondering about it's value in serious composition circles, as all the presets are based on predictable standards. I've just found it difficult to come up with anything truly original using band in the box cookie cutter patterns to start with . . . then when you try to vary them to something original, the software comes up short. Maybe, it's best at some point to move in into Cakewalk where you can play without boundaries ?
Cakewalk by Bandlab, Cubase, RME Babyface Pro, Intel i7 3770K @3.5Ghz, Asus P8Z77-VPro/Thunderbolt, 32GB DDR3 RAM, GeForce GTX 660 Ti, 250 GB OS SSD, 2TB HDD samples, Win 10 Pro 64 bit, backed up by Macrium Reflect, Novation Impulse 61 Midi Key Controller, Tannoy Active Near Field Monitors, Guitars by Vantage, Gibson, Yamaki and Ovation.
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abacab
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Re: Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?
2017/06/15 03:23:09
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noynekker
rabacab
noynekker
Using Band In a Box (yes I have it) you're only cheating yourself if you intend to create unique and original song ideas . . . if you use it to create commercial jingles and elevator musak . . . it's just business as usual.
I tried to use it as a creative tool to generate song ideas many years ago, but it never lead to anything memorable.
When I have used it to create in a jingle based business environment, well, let's just say . . . it payed for the cost of the software.
I think it is more like a mirror, and reflects who you are. It is what you make it. And it can be a traditional music education in a box, if you allow it ...
I won't deny it has an educational value, if that's your intention of how to use it, I'm just wondering about it's value in serious composition circles, as all the presets are based on predictable standards. I've just found it difficult to come up with anything truly original using band in the box cookie cutter patterns to start with . . . then when you try to vary them to something original, the software comes up short. Maybe, it's best at some point to move in into Cakewalk where you can play without boundaries ?
I can't argue with that. If you want to stick with traditional jazz or blues patterns, then plug in your chords and you have a backing band to groove with. But if your goal is to write completely original tracks, you need to move to a new playground. I don't think that BIAB was created to support that.
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BobF
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Re: Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?
2017/06/15 17:01:19
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UPDATE: What a CF. Apparently the first rep misspoke ... If you only buy the software instead of upgrading (rebuying?) your current package, your upgrade paths will be FUBAR. I've now completely unspun the '17 purchase and am staying with '16 Mega until killer sales happen. BobF
smallstonefan
Bob,
Am I understanding correctly then that the Mega content I bought for 2013 would work with the new version, so just do the basic upgrade to get that latest BIAB program?
That's what the PG folks told me ... diff is I'm at 2016. I would drop them a note just to make sure the Mega content hasn't changed. My email to them was asking if there was a better price to go from 16 Mega to 17 Mega.
This is the response:
=======
"Hello Bob,
You do not upgrade from a Mega to a Mega, as your not getting anything new with that package other than new software. If you just want the new software then just buy the Pro. Otherwise your best options are either buying a 2017 PlusPAK or UltraPlusPAK which would give you new RealTracks along with the new software."
Bob -- Angels are crying because truth has died ...Illegitimi non carborundum --Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64 Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U
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jimfogle
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Band-In-The Box, Is It Cheating? Emphatic No!
2017/06/15 18:18:42
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☄ Helpfulby bapu 2017/06/18 17:04:28
Is using Band-in-a-Box in your music production cheating? No.
The word cheat is defined as "act dishonest or unfair in order to gain an advantage" and "avoid (something undesirable) by luck or skill". Using Band-in-a-Box does not match either definition.
Using Band-in-a-Box in your production is no different than using any other production tool. How does using Band-in-a-Box differ from using 1) a midi pattern, 2) Kontakt as a sound module, 3) a convolution reverb using impulses recorded at Abbey Roads studio B to emulate the sound of the studio, 4) session musicians. I could go on and on with examples.
How is it dishonest or unfair to use Band-in-a-Box? How will using Band-in-a-Box help gain an advantage?
The magazines "Recording" has a feature where people submit recordings so the feature author can evaluate the quality of the production. Typically the owner of the recording will list who performed what along with additional comments about what equipment and tools were used during production. The feature author then offers production suggestions. In this instance the song was created in a home studio by two people. One person wrote and sang the song while the second manned the hard disc digital recorder. Then the singer manned the recorder while the other person played guitar and flute. The song writer was responsible for producing the song and submitting the song for consideration. Band-in-a-Box drums, bass and pedal steel guitar were added during production and listed in the credits. The reviewer treated the Band-in-a-Box tracks as though the tracks were live performances in his comments.
All recordings create audio illusions. Band-in-a-Box is just another tool to create an illusion.
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abacab
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Re: Band-In-The Box, Is It Cheating? Emphatic No!
2017/06/15 18:53:23
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I always thought that using pre-recorded loops was cheating. To avoid cheating, one must play the instrument and record the original loop instead.
The same could be said for using guitar strummers, bass riffers, or drum machines.
Maybe even playing back samples of a real instrument is cheating ...
How about Melodyne, VVocal, or drum replacer?
Is using an electronic amplifier cheating?
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Beagle
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Re: Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?
2017/06/16 01:28:47
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noynekker
Using Band In a Box (yes I have it) you're only cheating yourself if you intend to create unique and original song ideas . . . if you use it to create commercial jingles and elevator musak . . . it's just business as usual.
I tried to use it as a creative tool to generate song ideas many years ago, but it never lead to anything memorable.
When I have used it to create in a jingle based business environment, well, let's just say . . . it payed for the cost of the software.
I'm having trouble reconciling your statement that BIAB is cheating "if you intend to create unique and original song ideas." I would think that because of the very definitions of "unique" and "original" that you couldn't cheat to get there. using BIAB to create a unique and original song is one of the main reasons I use it! typically, my workflow is like this: I hear a melody and maybe a hook in my head I figure out the notes on a keyboard for that hook I then go to BIAB and start inputting chords which would work with that melodic structure of the hook. I then create the rest of the chord structure around that hook and build it into a song using BIAB. I now have a backing track for the song. I import those tracks into Sonar from BIAB I use Sonar to provide the backing for me to add vocals, keys, and then (for the last 2+ years), send it to my friends over the internet and they record bass, vocals and guitar against those BIAB created backing tracks. the finished result doesn't keep any of the BIAB tracks in it - it's all played and sang by the 3 or more of us and mixed by me (for my songs) in sonar. that's just one way to use BIAB. I also use it for backing tracks for live gigs where I can't play all of the instruments myself and don't have enough other band members to help. I also know of at least one other guy on these forums who uses BIAB to create songs and he plays all of the guitar parts and sings the vocals, but the rest of the recording is usually BIAB. the results he gets are quite good- in fact good enough that he's gotten royalties from TV spots. BIAB is not just for creators of MUZAK. You just have to understand how to use it as the tool it is.
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noynekker
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Re: Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?
2017/06/16 02:15:59
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Beagle
noynekker
Using Band In a Box (yes I have it) you're only cheating yourself if you intend to create unique and original song ideas . . . if you use it to create commercial jingles and elevator musak . . . it's just business as usual.
I tried to use it as a creative tool to generate song ideas many years ago, but it never lead to anything memorable.
When I have used it to create in a jingle based business environment, well, let's just say . . . it payed for the cost of the software.
I'm having trouble reconciling your statement that BIAB is cheating "if you intend to create unique and original song ideas." I would think that because of the very definitions of "unique" and "original" that you couldn't cheat to get there.
using BIAB to create a unique and original song is one of the main reasons I use it! typically, my workflow is like this:
I hear a melody and maybe a hook in my head
I figure out the notes on a keyboard for that hook
I then go to BIAB and start inputting chords which would work with that melodic structure of the hook.
I then create the rest of the chord structure around that hook and build it into a song using BIAB.
I now have a backing track for the song.
I import those tracks into Sonar from BIAB
I use Sonar to provide the backing for me to add vocals, keys, and then (for the last 2+ years), send it to my friends over the internet and they record bass, vocals and guitar against those BIAB created backing tracks.
the finished result doesn't keep any of the BIAB tracks in it - it's all played and sang by the 3 or more of us and mixed by me (for my songs) in sonar.
that's just one way to use BIAB. I also use it for backing tracks for live gigs where I can't play all of the instruments myself and don't have enough other band members to help.
I also know of at least one other guy on these forums who uses BIAB to create songs and he plays all of the guitar parts and sings the vocals, but the rest of the recording is usually BIAB. the results he gets are quite good- in fact good enough that he's gotten royalties from TV spots.
BIAB is not just for creators of MUZAK. You just have to understand how to use it as the tool it is.
Thanks Beagle, lots of great insight here . . . I'm glad you're able to use BIAB in your songwriting approach, and the way you've described how you do it makes sense, but that's just not how I create ideas . . . and I should qualify that the version of BIAB that I have is an older version . . . so, I went to their site and saw that they have very much improved the software since the days when I used it. I just don't think I can throw any more money into upgrading it, since the way I come up with ideas myself works very well in Sonar Platinum, with the very full toolbox it contains. I haven't listened to your music, and don't want to judge how "original" or "unique" it is . . . and the thread title use of the word "cheating" may be a bit extreme. Truth is, when I go hear live music, or listen to the radio and TV these days, it's not very often I hear something original or unique, and when I do . . . it really stands out, I get excited, such that I want to find out more about the artist, and how (and why) they came up with the idea for the song. I even want to find out where to buy it, to support them. My disconnection is that I can't believe great and magical song ideas start with software. Great and magical recordings and mixes most certainly come from software.
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abacab
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Re: Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?
2017/06/17 21:04:39
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noynekker
My disconnection is that I can't believe great and magical song ideas start with software.
Great and magical recordings and mixes most certainly come from software.
Great and magical starts with talent. I don't think anybody that buys a hit song cares how you wrote it or what software you used to record it.
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noynekker
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Re: Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?
2017/06/17 23:27:38
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abacab
noynekker
My disconnection is that I can't believe great and magical song ideas start with software.
Great and magical recordings and mixes most certainly come from software.
Great and magical starts with talent. I don't think anybody that buys a hit song cares how you wrote it or what software you used to record it.
If we plunk "talent" into the equation, well, talent by definition is "a natural aptitude or skill" . . . so if you only have a talent for manipulating software, then you might not be able to crank out the hits ? "I don't think anybody that buys a hit song cares how you wrote it or what software you used to record it."You're probably right, perhaps only musicians care about that kind of thing.
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jackson white
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Re: Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?
2017/06/18 16:54:33
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Just wondering how many hit songs have been written in BIAB. I could be missing something... or perhaps that's Diane Warren's secret weapon?
Is there an equivalent for hit lyrics?
-------------------- Some pieces of wood with wires and bits of metal stuck in them, silicon and plastic
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bapu
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Re: Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?
2017/06/18 17:01:05
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☄ Helpfulby abacab 2017/06/18 23:24:13
S.L.I.P.
I wrote a song, and hired a bunch of musicians to play it... Is that cheating?
Depends on the "musicians". Joe Satriani? No. Milli Vanilli? Ya.
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bapu
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Re: Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?
2017/06/18 17:28:59
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noynekker
I haven't listened to your music, and don't want to judge how "original" or "unique" it is . . .
In my interpretation of that sentence you just did.  It seems your gold standard for a piece of music is it must be "original" or "unique" by your decree. Borders on condescending IMO. Just curious, were you one of those session musicians who decried the advent of synthesizers? Believe it or not many of us here just want to take our hobby/passion to fruition by any means possible. Being a simple minded bass player who still plays guitar at the level in which I transitioned (~3 years) and one who pokes at a MIDI keyboard from time to time, tools like BIAB, EZKeys, guitar strum engines and EZDrummer2 Song Arranger are heaven sent even if those parts untimely get replaced by online collaborators. Did I "cheat" to get to that end (even if in the final version I used some BIAB Real Tracks, i.e. actual parts played by actual musicians). By the offered definition of cheating I would say no. Whether someone else thinks I am (loosely interpreted as) cheating, is of no real concern to me. So, in all fairness I applaud you that you don't feel any of these types of tools help you in your search for musical nirvana. Carry on as it were. Peace.
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noynekker
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Re: Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?
2017/06/18 22:38:15
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bapu
noynekker
I haven't listened to your music, and don't want to judge how "original" or "unique" it is . . .
In my interpretation of that sentence you just did.
It seems your gold standard for a piece of music is it must be "original" or "unique" by your decree. Borders on condescending IMO. Just curious, were you one of those session musicians who decried the advent of synthesizers?
Believe it or not many of us here just want to take our hobby/passion to fruition by any means possible. Being a simple minded bass player who still plays guitar at the level in which I transitioned (~3 years) and one who pokes at a MIDI keyboard from time to time, tools like BIAB, EZKeys, guitar strum engines and EZDrummer2 Song Arranger are heaven sent even if those parts untimely get replaced by online collaborators. Did I "cheat" to get to that end (even if in the final version I used some BIAB Real Tracks, i.e. actual parts played by actual musicians). By the offered definition of cheating I would say no. Whether someone else thinks I am (loosely interpreted as) cheating, is of no real concern to me.
So, in all fairness I applaud you that you don't feel any of these types of tools help you in your search for musical nirvana. Carry on as it were. Peace.
. . . no condescension intended I don't think you're a cheater.
Cakewalk by Bandlab, Cubase, RME Babyface Pro, Intel i7 3770K @3.5Ghz, Asus P8Z77-VPro/Thunderbolt, 32GB DDR3 RAM, GeForce GTX 660 Ti, 250 GB OS SSD, 2TB HDD samples, Win 10 Pro 64 bit, backed up by Macrium Reflect, Novation Impulse 61 Midi Key Controller, Tannoy Active Near Field Monitors, Guitars by Vantage, Gibson, Yamaki and Ovation.
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?
2017/06/18 22:55:48
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☄ Helpfulby abacab 2017/06/18 23:29:31
Is it considered cheating for you to want to move forward in your music ? Is it considered cheating to sit there looking at a brand new blank open project in your favorite DAW of choice with a glazed look on your face and after what seems like a mini eternity you decide to give up right there on the spot ? Who got cheated that time after having quit before even starting ? What do you tell yourself when you think you know the truth ? Could an aspect of the truth also be this ? The Muse went out on an All Muse's Party Night a few weeks ago with all her other Muses friends and hasn't been back to pay you a visit ever since ? it sure can feel like that happens sometimes right ? When that type of thing happens to me I may end up firing up BIAB . Then I will play my guitar over one chord just to let off a little steam ... here's the evidence of one of those nights ..Elevator Music Alert , don't say I didn't warn you  https://soundcloud.com/gu...wilson/late-night-tele If using BIAB can get a person back on track and into being productive again with their music making , It ain't cheating in my book ... Kenny
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abacab
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Re: Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?
2017/06/18 23:30:57
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kennywtelejazz
When that type of thing happens to me I may end up firing up BIAB . Then I will play my guitar over one chord just to let off a little steam ...
here's the evidence of one of those nights ..Elevator Music Alert , don't say I didn't warn you
https://soundcloud.com/gu...wilson/late-night-tele
Late Nite With Kenny! Nice!
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BobF
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Re: Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?
2017/06/18 23:39:13
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kennywtelejazz
The Muse went out on an All Muse's Party Night a few weeks ago with all her other Muses friends and hasn't been back to pay you a visit ever since ? it sure can feel like that happens sometimes right ?
My Muse is a **** like that. She's been on a two-month bender, not uttering a single thing to me the whole time.
Bob -- Angels are crying because truth has died ...Illegitimi non carborundum --Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64 Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U
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abacab
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Re: Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?
2017/06/19 00:00:53
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☄ Helpfulby BobF 2017/06/19 01:35:54
BobF
My Muse is a **** like that. She's been on a two-month bender, not uttering a single thing to me the whole time.
Time to visit Larry over at the Deals forum, LOL!
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olemon
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Re: Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?
2017/06/19 10:28:48
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I found out about BIAB right here in these Sonar forums. After listening to some professional sounding productions of original music posted in the Songs Forum, I asked the songwriter, Guitarhacker, how he accomplished that. He explained his process which included audio tracks in BIAB which he edited and mixed in Sonar. I was hooked. As a singer-songwriter myself, I'd been searching for a way to produce my own music which is what lead me to Sonar in the first place. I you click on the link in my signature and listen to any of the songs I've posted there, you're going to hear BIAB Real Tracks that were imported/edited/mixed/mastered in Sonar. There are a number of Sonar users in these forums using that same process. Cheating? Idk about that, but I do know that guitarist Brent Mason's killer leads are featured on a few of my songs, along with several other Nashville studio musicians. Here's a link to a BIAB SoundCloud site featuring original songs uploaded by BIAB users: https://soundcloud.com/bandinaboxradio
https://www.reverbnation.com/scottholson Platinum, Studio One 3 Pro, Win 10 (x64), AMD FX-8350, ASUS M5A97 R2.0, 16GB, RME UCX, Digimax DP88, Faderport 8, Revive Audio Mod Studio Channel, Vintage Audio M72, Summit Audio TLA-50, KRK Rokit 5 G2 Monitors, Guitars "If you wait till the last minute, it only takes a minute."
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soens
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Re: Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?
2017/06/20 02:16:10
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It MAY be cheating if: 1. BIAB is not really in a box 2. Your music is for sale and no disclaimer was on the label stating BIAB was used in place of real musicians 3. You fail to supply BIAB the required royalties from all sales The 2nd one is kinda like Oldsmobile owners back in the 80s finding out the engine under the hood was actually a Chevy. 
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abacab
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Re: Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?
2017/06/20 04:47:41
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soens
It MAY be cheating if:
1. BIAB is not really in a box
2. Your music is for sale and no disclaimer was on the label stating BIAB was used in place of real musicians
3. You fail to supply BIAB the required royalties from all sales
The 2nd one is kinda like Oldsmobile owners back in the 80s finding out the engine under the hood was actually a Chevy.
I assume this was an attempt at humor. But to your point #3 this is what PG Music, the BIAB publisher, has to say in their FAQ. Are songs that I create with Band-in-a-Box copyrighted?The arrangements made by Band-in-a-Box are yours, and your songs may be used freely as long as they don't infringe upon the intellectual property rights of others.
DAW: CbB; Sonar Platinum, and others ...
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?
2017/06/20 13:48:48
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kennywtelejazz
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Re: Band-In-The Box, is it cheating?
2017/06/20 13:53:26
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dupe post
post edited by kennywtelejazz - 2017/06/20 17:07:54
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