Spacey- You are right, I didn't intend this to be about the shortcomings in a band. I think you hit the nail right on the head with reference to what your ideas of intuition are. Just being who you are and in doing what you do a lot of what others may think complicated are easy and come naturally to a gifted musician and one who practices his skill.

 Your thoughts on the subconscious are interesting. I have never done acid and in the early 60s I was still a grasshopper, but the thought still seems to exist that somehow these drugs were mind expanding and musicians even claimed that they made better music because of it. The Beatles were well known for their drug use and so were a lot of others.

 Yesterday I was watching an old Netflix video called the "trip". I only watched maybe half of it. The movie is about a guy in the 60s who went on his first LSD trip. I was thinking to myself that if this is what its like I got the effect by watching the film and have no interest to go any further. Your sense of reality is distorted in a nutshell. I find it interesting that some have claimed that "enlightenment" by drug use has improved their musicianship and even claimed to have some kind of a second perception as a result.

 My stance on this is I'm not really buying it. In ancient times most cultures looked at music like a skill, same as a brick layer or a painter. It is a skill that touches the soul or has that capability. Do altered states give a musician more intuition? Drugs usually mess people and families up and not much good comes from it. I am not into any of that at all but I would like to hear why some might think it is some kind of an advantage and why it was so popular with so many musicians in that era and even now. Steve Jobs did acid and some people have credited his ideas with that "expansion" he experienced in his youth. Whether this is actually true is up for argument.

 Just another take from another view with respect to your ideas on the sub conscious and the conscious. Musicians seem to have the ability to cross this threshold without drugs. I can't really see a band getting anything together while stoned either. A pretty shallow argument IMHO.

 CRG- You seem to have a way with saying a lot with just a few words.
I love to hear a band play when they are together like that!

 Jon- That's one of the things I like most about playing in a group.Following people with other ideas and in doing so it adds to my knowledge base of what can be done.Meeting good people along the way. I remember one drummer who had me in stitches every time we played together. Fun days. I love playing in a band with other players who are more advanced. You are fortunate to be in these kinds of situations. Relationships,talent and respect seem to be what makes it all fun...and what I miss some of nowadays. 

  My playing now involves mostly church related things and a lot of these people need to loosen up a little bit. In a pub people are already casual. The musician has a lot more going for them in a pub usually. Don't get me wrong, my church is ok with edgy music but the whole environment is different there as is the objective. It can be a good experience but it involves what others put into it. The connection part is up to them.In this case music is a vehicle to a thing and not the thing in and of itself. In these situations groups of musicians are usually pulled from the people there. Not like a string of pubs where you get around and share players. The mentality is usually that they play where they are....another uptight idea. As a result I seldom have much to work with.

 The other gig I am looking into would be more like a pub. Not as uptight or with as many expectations.Not sure yet how that will go.

 

Star I find interesting that my views are seen by you to have direct relation and/or reference to drugs.
I did mention that we all know that many musicians have used many things that
they believe help them perform or relax them- to settle their nerves. Man that could
be rubbing a good luck charm...

Amazing how twisted things can get without drugs huh? 

I've been known to take Advil or Tylenol after hauling equipment for a gig.  That's about it for me.

Some don't need supplemental assistance to descend into madness.  Some of us maintain a permanent residence there...

I was reading your post while walking down the hall and accidentally swallowed my gum. 

Evidentally, I need more practice.

I walk into door frames all the time....is this the first aide center?

I write much like I walk...or is that the other way around?

trimph1


I walk into door frames all the time....is this the first aide center?

No, it's a few inches to the left...

starise
  In ancient times most cultures looked at music like a skill, same as a brick layer or a painter. It is a skill that touches the soul or has that capability.
...

 
Actually not always true. There are a lot of indigenous tribes that had music as a part of their living and it was not music as you and I know it that has a staff and notes. There are various studies, that try to figure out how the Aborigenes have music, so do Africans and South American tribes, and it is not really clear that the drum was the only instrument that drove their music. My concern here, is that when we think this, we are only looking at a segment of the population, and the learning and information on a lot of those "drugs" came from many of these indigenous peoples, that Christianity has spent 600 years trying to kill off around the world!
 

starise
 
...
Do altered states give a musician more intuition? Drugs usually mess people and families up and not much good comes from it.
...

 
NO.
 
What drugs do, no different than anything else you can take, or Nyquil, for that matter, is that they numb your thinking mind, long enough that you see something different. Wether that "something different" helps you or not, is a completely different path and idea, that has nothing to do with the very seeing of it, in general.
 
Does it mess up with families?
 
I really think this is a gross generalization. It has helped as much as it has hampered, and a lot more of it has been made in the media as to the evils of Bushey Spon or the Nadjer Plague, or the Noodle Vaccine, than this.
 
What is does, if I may take the license to give you an example, is take your thinking mind out of the way long enough that you might say something else ... that otherwise might offend your next of kin ... the kinds of things that have a tendency to hurt the communication between two folks ... but in general, it is only as good (or as bad) as your attitude towards anything ... it will be extremely hard for you to have a "good trip" when the judgemental side is already attacking it. It is the grandest recipe for the disaster!
 

starise
 
...
I am not into any of that at all but I would like to hear why some might think it is some kind of an advantage and why it was so popular with so many musicians in that era and even now.
...

 
It's no different in any other art.
 
The best parallel that I can give you is this ... you can read Andous Huxley (Doors of Perception) (Heaven and Hell) ... both really short books, that tell you about his experiments with Sandoz in the labs with Dr. Hoffman. His observations tend to show you ... that the chair was different, that the Mozart sounded different ... and so on ...
 
For all intents and purposes, it is an "observatory" experience that can help you or deter you, depending on your "inner child" as I call it. Some of us, love to fly and trip and go all over, and dreams, are another element of tripping, as are "visions" and other psychic events ... but in the end, these are only as good as you learn from them.
 

starise

...
Musicians seem to have the ability to cross this threshold without drugs. I can't really see a band getting anything together while stoned either.
...

 
So you don't think a painter, or a writer, or a bull-s$itter, or an idiot would not also have that ability?
 
Getting together and playing something ... is not a big deal ... with one exception ... you can not do this and play the top ten at the Red Lion circuit tonight!
 
Almost all of the "psychedelic music" is usually improvised, and becomes a nice testament to an "experience" ... and if you want to judge it any further than that ... you will (sometimes) negate your own experience.
 
There are a lot of examples and experiences on this ... Helmut Hattle, Guru Guru have talked about their days of that band and playing things and having no idea where it went, and it didn't matter. In that time and place, you could do that ... you can't do that in Cakewalk Heaven, with Sonar afficcionados. In the ProgArchives board, there is a nice quote from Helmut that says a lot ... they were so ripped ... and were looking at each other ... and Mani said ... just think of something and ... that was that ... you learn to have courage to play with what is here and now ... no ideas, no thoughts, no conventions, no concepts ... it's about that "moment" ... and nothing else matters.
 
We have LOST this "moment" ... mostly (this is my idea!) because of the media onslaught about the evils of drugs, sex and whatever ... so you do not vote those mosnters out of office! You keep occupying your mind with stuff that is personal, and should not be an issue to be discussed ... so that you don't care if Citibank is robbing you blind! Or GM, or JP Morgan!
 
The early SF scene at Fillmore and early scenes in NY and London and Paris, were full of people experimenting ... but the commercial element has a tendency to negate the "human experience" in favor of the "collective acceptance theory" that you can not be different or do somethign different! ... you have to be yet another F_____g brick in the proverbial wall ... and I'm tired of it, here in Cakewalk Forum or anywhere else ... if you are happy being just another brick, be my guest, but don't criticize my right not to be a brick! Sure ... sometimes we are that thick ... sorry Ian ... couldn't help it!
 
And only you have to learn that part for yourself, regardless of what anyone says ... but don't confuse what someone tells you with what is or is not ... those are two completely different things and you have the power, ability and maybe ... the desire to find out on your own!
 
Lastly ... there is a very funny note, in the Don Juan books ... Carlos asks ... "were the drugs necessary?" ... and Don Juan says ... "Of course not, you idiot. We just needed to get something to shut you up so you could listen, hear, learn a thing or two!"
 
If you don't get that ... even drugs or anything else will ever matter anyway. Btw, your Pineal Gland secretes stuff that is far better, safer and makes any other substance that we call drugs seem redundant, stupid and a waste of time and money. That shold tell you that you already have those experiences, but can not identify them! Or you are denying them, which is another story.
 
And one addon, and it comes from Aleister Crowley, in the best book EVER written about the subject ...  "Diary of a Drugfiend" ... and the last lines ... in there say it all ... if you have to take the drug again, and need it ... you are already dead! 
  
IF ... by any chance ... after all this ... you do not know the difference, there is not a thing, any of us can help you with. You either try it and see what happens, or go home and pout about it!