Why does X3 producer use so much CPU?

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Pict
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/07 22:19:20 (permalink)
Steve in Sonar with only one instance of Nebula running Sonars CPU monitor shows a low usage spread evenly across all core with 6 instances running the 1st core is in the red with the remaining cores averaging about 50% moving the mouse stops playback.In Reaper one instance of Nebula is 6% with 6 instances only 12%.
              In windows resource monitor running 6 Nebula instances the 1st core in Reaper averages about 20% with the remaining cores using about 15%,10%,and 8% respectively compared to Sonar which shows 55% across all cores on average.There is no stopping of playback in Reaper or glitching at all with any mouse movement even when Reaper is almost at max with 16 Nebula instances (96%) there's no glitch or playback stop.Reaper averages 11% average CPU use on the windows resource monitor compared to Sonar at 35% average with same number of Nebula instances and Sonar constantly spikes up to 100% stopping playback.

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#31
Pict
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/07 22:25:57 (permalink)
All of this on one track of audio.

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#32
scook
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/07 23:46:57 (permalink)
Maybe modifying ExtraPluginBufs in AUD.ini will help. If I had to pick a value, try setting to 32
I am guessing this is a 64bit version of Nebula running on a 64bit version of SONAR. I do not have a 64bit version of Nebula to test and did not install the 32bit version on my current machine.
#33
reza
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 01:39:51 (permalink)
Pict
I use Acustica-audio Nebula 3 which I really like but unfortunately I can't use many instances of it in X3 pro therefore I tried Reaper as a host and to my surprise I could use far more instances of Nebula.I have been using Sonar for a few years now and I have got used to the GUI so I would like to keep using it as I have bought the prochannel modules and I am used to the hardware mixer paradigm but it runs like a slug compared to Reaper.I also use Logic and have done for years but I am reluctant to buy a new mac(as my present mac is only a dual core)just to run the latest version of Logic.Am I missing something in the preferences that would lighten the processor demand(I have a quad core i5 with 8 gigs ram win7 machine)I have the often reported 1st core spiking on the cpu meter.Is X3 just a CPU hog?





Hi 
I had exactly the same issue and always the first core cpu meter was almost hitting the max and the rest of the cores like were useless :) 
I posted a topic and got some clue but still had the issue. anyway, i update my os to windows 8.1 and sonar to x3d it seems problem solved. i think some waves plugins had conflict with windows 7 and x1. Also i realized sonitus reverb which has a great quality but has a bug. any time i add some reverb and increased the pre delay to max i could see the firs core starting to hit the ceiling.  I am using cakewalk when it was new born about 15 years ago or more which the version was 1.4 i believe, i am not sure, till now which i have x3d but I believe we will have much less problem and issue with logic or protools even with a lower spec of PC. The Only reason i still stuck to it because it is very user friendly and i used to it after almost 15 years :).
Long story short, try to run sonar on win 8.1 machine and see the result :)
Good luck
 
Reza
#34
Pict
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 09:11:24 (permalink)
Scook and Reza thanks for the info I'll try the AUD.ini adjustment.As I've said before I've been mainly a Logic user and before that Creator and Notator I really wish that Logic was still available for the PC the notation is excellent,the 90 screensets are great I feel really limited with 10 if only Macs weren't such a ripoff (imo).
    I would love to get Sonar running as smoothly as some of the people on here have it running.I didn't like the interface of the pre X series of Sonar and I thought that with Sonar adopting a more Logic like GUI it would be easier for me to use it but sadly for me it hasn't fulfilled my expectations I really get annoyed having to tweak preferences and registry entries etc but after investing time and money on it I don't want to throw it down the pan but I'm getting close.

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#35
gustabo
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 09:59:52 (permalink)
CakeAlexS
One is chalk, the other is a cow, the other is Pamela Anderson.... that's just the way it is.


ROTFLMAO!
Love your choice of comparison!


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#36
gswitz
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 11:49:55 (permalink)
I wonder if up sampling, down sampling, filtering and dither between every instance might explain the difference.

Perhaps disabling 64 bit engine might help?

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#37
Pict
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 12:14:35 (permalink)
Thanks for the suggestion gswitz I just tried it but it made no difference unfortunately.

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#38
lawp
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 12:27:23 (permalink)
pan laws?

sstteerreeoo ffllllaanngge
#39
Pict
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 12:34:42 (permalink)
You guys are all exceptionally helpful so I'd just like to restate my appreciation.Infinite thanks and good vibes to you all you are a fantastic example of how a user forum should be.
 
                Now back to the battle

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#40
codamedia
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 14:31:42 (permalink)
Whenever I encounter CPU spikes/usage/dropouts I always look to my ASIO buffer settings. I am also a frequent user of two different DAW's, and a single universal buffer setting does not always work between them. If DAW 1 wants the buffers set to "yyy", DAW 2 might be happier at "zzz". There are no rules, just take the time to optimize them for each DAW.
 
I also only run lower buffers during tracking - and only if I need to use input monitoring. When I go into mix mode - I raise the buffers to allow more CPU for plugins.
 
Just my 2 cents...

Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take! 
 

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#41
scook
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 14:35:39 (permalink)
This is true. Plug-ins like Nebula are not designed for use during tracking. Increasing buffers during mixing is a common practice to reduce CPU load.
#42
codamedia
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 14:39:12 (permalink)
lawp
nebula is a cpu-hungry plug fo' sho'... how are you using the instances? if they're all on the same channel, that channel is all going to a single core i believe

 
Does anyone know for sure if Sonar works like this?
 
Pict
All of this on one track of audio.

 
If "LAWP" is correct and you are testing with a single track, maybe this is the source of the difference.
 
Can you duplicate the track and apply Nebula on several different tracks/channels to see if performance is improved? I'm not saying that is a solution - I'm just saying it might go a long way in explaining why there is such a discrepancy.
 
post edited by codamedia - 2014/01/08 14:46:08

Don't fix it in the mix ... Fix it in the take! 
 

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#43
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 15:37:06 (permalink)
I'm not using Nebula for tracking I've tried it in both Reaper and Sonar with multiple channels with one instance each and a single channel with 6 instances on it(as suggested by stevec) with nothing on the busses and every time Reaper performs flawlessly and Sonar chokes.I've duplicated the same track over 24 channels and gradually added single instances of Nebula to see when it chokes each DAW.
             Reaper manages 16 instances Sonar 6 instances every time with the same configuration of audio tracks this is using console input,buss or preamp emulations add an emt plate reverb longer than 1.5 secs(very processor greedy) and Sonar won't even begin playback.It's night and day there must be a reason.As I said before Henry Olonga had the same experience which is why I tried Reaper in the 1st place and I know for sure his system isn't anything like mine.
 
     I know conclusions are as easy to draw as curtains but my conclusion is Reaper simply handles Nebula libraries far better than Sonar.In fact my head is beginning to swim from the different permutations I've tried on both DAWs every time Reaper performs better with Nebula on my computer.

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#44
scook
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 16:09:57 (permalink)
#45
Sanderxpander
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 16:32:07 (permalink)
I disagree that you can't (or shouldn't) compare DAWs this way. These are important real world facts that we have to deal with. The same way you can say "crap, Ableton doesn't support VST3 but my other DAW does!", this is a valid observation. Sonar is not very efficient at working with Nebula, or Nebula isn't with Sonar, whatever, the point is the results speak for themselves and directly affect the way we can work effectively (or not) with the DAW. Reaper is often hailed as being particularly efficient. 6 vs 16 is a very big difference though. No matter how many differences there are, this is a strong point in favor of Reaper and a strong call to the bakers to look into this specific plugin's performance, or just performance in general.
 
Some people seem to really dislike any form of critique on Sonar. I'm hoping critique makes things better in the long run.
 
EDIT: I'm editing my posts a lot today, but I just wanted to say that I believe Reaper specifically has a useful kind of "look ahead" feature that calculates plugin performance ahead of the regular sample buffer when it has "extra processing power" during a lull. This may be at play here or not, but it's a useful feature none the less.
#46
mettelus
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 16:34:30 (permalink)
Yikes... that thread again...
 
I remember someone posting they used Ozone 5 on every track a couple months ago, and someone responded that they were impressed. I assume this is one of the more "CPU hungry" plugs and I just got it a few weeks ago. I just started piling them on an audio track and assigning them each a different preset master setting (i.e. processing audio actively). They started to gain stage each other, so I had to keep lowering inputs/monitor settings. I got bored with this at 10 instances, play it, and CPU is running 6%. This is definitely not a "real-world" application of plug-in use, and if I owned a plug that consumed my machine, I would kick it to the curb quicker than last week's news.
 
Edit: I just closed the project (left X3 open) and CPU dropped to 2% and freed 1GB of RAM.

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#47
Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk]
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 16:46:12 (permalink)
Were you testing Reaper in one of the sample accurate modes?

Best Regards,
Seth
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 16:48:53 (permalink)
mettelus
Yikes... that thread again...
 
I remember someone posting they used Ozone 5 on every track a couple months ago, and someone responded that they were impressed. I assume this is one of the more "CPU hungry" plugs and I just got it a few weeks ago. I just started piling them on an audio track and assigning them each a different preset master setting (i.e. processing audio actively). They started to gain stage each other, so I had to keep lowering inputs/monitor settings. I got bored with this at 10 instances, play it, and CPU is running 6%. This is definitely not a "real-world" application of plug-in use, and if I owned a plug that consumed my machine, I would kick it to the curb quicker than last week's news.
 
Edit: I just closed the project (left X3 open) and CPU dropped to 2% and freed 1GB of RAM.


It's gonna sound sarcastic, and it's NOT meant to, but I don't understand your point in relation to the OP?
#49
Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk]
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 16:52:38 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
It's gonna sound sarcastic, and it's NOT meant to, but I don't understand your point in relation to the OP?



SONAR is a sample accurate application. Reaper is not sample accurate in it's default configuration. Sample accuracy adds higher demands on system resources.

Testing Reaper in one of the sample accurate modes may show similar results to SONAR's baseline. 



 
 

Best Regards,
Seth
#50
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 16:55:31 (permalink)
Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk]
Sanderxpander
It's gonna sound sarcastic, and it's NOT meant to, but I don't understand your point in relation to the OP?



SONAR is a sample accurate application. Reaper is not sample accurate in it's default configuration. Sample accuracy adds higher demands on system resources.

Testing Reaper in one of the sample accurate modes may show similar results to SONAR's baseline. 
 

Sorry, we cross-posted, I meant Mettelus and have edited my post to reflect that. Thanks for your explanation though!
#51
Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk]
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 16:57:05 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
Seth Kellogg [Cakewalk]
Sanderxpander
It's gonna sound sarcastic, and it's NOT meant to, but I don't understand your point in relation to the OP?



SONAR is a sample accurate application. Reaper is not sample accurate in it's default configuration. Sample accuracy adds higher demands on system resources.

Testing Reaper in one of the sample accurate modes may show similar results to SONAR's baseline. 
 

Sorry, we cross-posted, I meant Mettelus and have edited my post to reflect that. Thanks for your explanation though!



No worries!

Best Regards,
Seth
#52
Pict
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 17:08:53 (permalink)
Scook a link to that gearslutz test was posted in this thread earlier thanks.It's not a general comparison of Sonar to Reaper that I'm talking about it's how it handles this specific plugin that bothers me I would like it to be possible to mix down with the same amount of instances of Nebula in Sonar as in Reaper I would like to be able to do all my work in Sonar from tracking to final mix using this specific plugin and if I can't get that to work as I would like then it's either track in Sonar and final mix in Reaper or ditch Sonar and move over to Reaper which I have already paid for anyway.It would be ideal for me to be able to use only Sonar as I've paid for the melodyne upgrade,Karl's videos,prochannel modules etc.
 
              I've been patient with various problems through earlier versions of Sonar and I know all DAWs have their issues but I like the sound of Nebulas libraries and 6 instances just won't allow me to use it as I want.Sonar could run a billion instances of some other plugin compared to Reaper or another DAW but it's Nebula I want to use and Sonar feature rich as it is just doesn't seem to cooperate well with it figuring out why and finding a solution is the only agenda I have.When it comes to other issues I've had with Sonar I can usually find a workaround on my own this is only the 2nd time I've  asked for help on the forum the 1st time I solved the issue myself and I don't like asking for help but Nebula is a product I intend to keep using and using two conceptually different DAWs to get the job done is not my idea of smooth workflow as I'm sure almost anyone here would agree.

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#53
mettelus
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 17:16:57 (permalink)
Seth's point is far more eloquent as far as any comparison should be as apples to apples as you can get (and few conducting sporadic "tests" put serious consideration into this).
 
There are a lot of variables at play in any system, so lump-summing a statement of a top level system is misleading. Simple things like latencies and buffers can be setup differently between X3 and Reaper as well... and if I wanted to literally choke X3 to death, I could easily do it starting in that one place alone (few plug-ins required). As far as the OP of X3 being "CPU hungry," the first place I would head is latency/buffers for better performance.
 
Dredging up the old thread was more of a distraction, sorry.

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#54
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 17:43:35 (permalink)
I've tested Reaper in sample accurate mode and it performs the same as before with no discernible difference.

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#55
Pict
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 17:45:31 (permalink)
I've set latency to max but I don't know what would be good buffer settings to use in Sonar?

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#56
mettelus
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 21:31:48 (permalink)
The latency/IO buffers are a system specific thing that has a "sweet spot" that is system dependent. I just ran back through the thread quick but did not see what driver mode, and audio interface you are using. These also play into the overall picture. Realize that "maxed out" buffers can be just as bad as too small.
 
As far as finding the sweet spot for your system, it is good to take a fairly intensive project (the X3 demo project is a good choice) and use that for tailoring these.
 
ASIO mode with drivers specific to your interface are highly preferred. WDM mode is a best second, and anything other than these two tend to cause issues for most people (in general).
 
Start with the ASIO buffer at 128 (Preferences->Audio->Driver Settings->ASIO Panel...), and I/O buffers at 512 (Advanced Mode: Preferences->Audio->Synch and Caching)
  1. Set preferred audio buffer.
  2. Start playback.
  3. If it drops out or other issues adjust I/O buffers in steps of 256.
  4. Repeat steps 2 & 3. Try adjusting buffers both up and down until happy. 256 jumps should do.
  5. If after trying all sizes up to 1024 you still have issues go back to step 1 and increase audio buffer to the next available setting (these are often "locked" to something like 128, 192, 256, 384, 512, 768, 1024, 2048).
  6. Repeat as necessary until you find the "magic" combination for your setup.
   The default settings of 128/512 usually fit most scenarios fairly decently.
 
   As mentioned above, the driver mode you are using, and audio interface can also make a massive impact on "system," depending what they are.
 
 

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#57
Pict
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 22:19:55 (permalink)
Thanks for the advice Mettelus I tried every setting but still no go maximum 6 Nebula instances as before.The audio interface is a  Cakewalk Sonar V-Studio 100  I don't think there could be a more compatible system  with Sonar than their own interface with their own ASIO driver.I think I'm out of luck trying to use Sonar with Nebula.Thanks again for the help.

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#58
mettelus
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 22:34:06 (permalink)
I wish I had a solution for you. I am not familiar with Nebula (at all), there was a post by bitflipper that might be helpful as far as work flow beyond this point.
 
There are a lot of folks in the forums who know plug-ins extremely well, and could probably suggest a comparable alternative for you if you are willing to go that route.

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#59
Pict
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Re: Why does X3 producer use so much CPU? 2014/01/08 23:14:34 (permalink)
Mettelus Nebula is a plugin that is similar to convolution reverbs in that it uses impulse responses but instead of a single snapshot impulse response being used it uses multiple impulse responses and a technique called volterra kernelling to morph between the responses the more kernels the more realistic the emulation of the hardware (at least that's how I grasp the concept)It produces extremely realistic emulation of real hardware like preamps,eqs reverbs,compressors(the tonality of compressors rather than the response time though they're working on that too) even microphone frequency responses can be sampled to be add the flavour of classic mics to your recordings.It allows for excellent emulations of entire consoles for example there are Neve consoles and SSL consoles available from 3rd party library developers and it sounds very convincing but and it's a very big but it absolutely devours the CPU plus the interface isn't exactly user friendly however converts feel it's worth the hit.It's a bit like liquid mix done native (but with a better sound to my ears)

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