brconflict
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Re: I absolutely love speed comping!
2014/10/13 09:32:19
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Sanderxpander
Brconflict, if the record mode is set to comping, you will hear the previous take as long as you haven't actually hit "record". I usually press play a bit in advance for a good lead in and then hit R a second or so before the actual line for sort of a punch in. I'm pretty sure you could also use sound on sound mode if you go line by line, and you can simply create two lanes in the same track to work with.
Just giving options, if you're happy with your workflow ignore me please :)
Right. The problem being that, when a vocalist is connecting run-on lines together (which we do, typically to save the vocalist's breath), hearing the previous line while tracking is paramount. The only way I've found this possible is to toggle takes between two different tracks. I'd love to see a quick little toggle button to allow JUST the last recorded Lane play, but mute the rest. Would help tremendously with manual punch-ins.
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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nzpaul
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Re: I absolutely love speed comping!
2014/10/13 18:27:22
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Anderton
Unfortunately, it is the way a lot of songs are done now...
Not just now, apparently that's how Dave Gilmour did the famous comfortably numb solo. “I banged out five or six solos,” says Gilmour. “From there I just followed my usual procedure, which is to listen back to each solo and make a chart, noting which bits are good. Then, by following the chart, I create one great composite solo by whipping one fader up, then another fader, jumping from phrase to phrase until everything flows together. That’s the way we did it on ‘Comfortably Numb.’”
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Splat 
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Re: I absolutely love speed comping!
2014/10/13 19:04:56
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Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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Paul P
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Re: I absolutely love speed comping!
2014/10/13 21:13:32
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nzpaul
“I banged out five or six solos,” says Gilmour. “From there I just followed my usual procedure, which is to listen back to each solo and make a chart, noting which bits are good. Then, by following the chart, I create one great composite solo by whipping one fader up, then another fader, jumping from phrase to phrase until everything flows together. That’s the way we did it on ‘Comfortably Numb.’”
And here I thought these guys were gods. Thanks for opening my eyes and ears, I'll never hear music the same way again. 75 takes... that's getting into monkey and typewriter territory.
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Splat
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Re: I absolutely love speed comping!
2014/10/13 21:35:41
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Back in the day I worked with a well known goth band, and for each song on the album it was pretty much this: 1) Tape machine = 48 track analogue. 2 x 2" tapes 24 tracks each. Master and Slave. 2) Each song one master tape (24 track) and multiple slave reels (24 track) which would sync up with the master. 2) On one master tape Drums and bits/bobs, guides. 3) One slave reel of lead vocals to be bounced down to two tracks onto the master. 4) One slave reel of BV to be bounced down to a few BV tracks onto the master. 5) One slave reel of bass to be bounced down to one or two bass tracks onto the master. etc... etc... You get the idea. Each slave reel was listened to a few bars at a time and given a score and written down on a grid on a piece of paper. From that the best performances could be determined. If the best performance didn't gel with something then we went down to the second best performance etc. All ended up being bounced onto the master. We had other slaves that ended up on the final mix like large choirs etc. We even got into scoring mixes, not surprising it took forever, and artist had the habit of disappearing for days on end. At one stage record company came in to claim the master tapes (the costs must have been enormous) but we were one step ahead. Eventually we got there and artist got exactly what they wanted, and it was a big enough hit for the record company to get their money back I suspect. All on analogue tape. Think what could have happened with takelanes in Sonar... Rock and roll....
post edited by CakeAlexS - 2014/10/13 22:05:09
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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sharke
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Re: I absolutely love speed comping!
2014/10/13 23:37:25
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Some very interesting banter here, interesting to hear how other people work (or have worked back in the days of tape). The thought of doing this kind of editing on tape blows my mind, I can't even really conceive of it, although I guess I've always known about Zappa's legendary editing skills with a razor blade. I think I would get lost very quickly.
I don't think I would comp in every situation. In this case the sound I was looking for was very mechanical and perfect, and I was able to comp a perfect take from 15 semi-perfect takes. It worked perfectly in this instance. And I don't always go crazy with takes - I have guitar parts that I've set down with one take, mistakes be damned, I liked the sound of them. I think one of the ways in which comping is going to prove very useful for me is in the first couple of bars of a take, because sometimes my fingers just can't jump into the groove straight away. If I loop back and play the whole piece again, those first couple of bars are going to sound a lot better the second time around.
Interesting to read about Gilmour splicing his solos together like that. It doesn't make me think any less of him to be honest - in fact I have a higher opinion of him now, since I always thought he composed them note for note beforehand. So in actual fact they're all sourced from improvised material. I wonder if he ever used phrases from the same set of takes on more than one song? I know Zappa would take entire solos from a live gig and shoehorn them into a studio recording later - his incredible solo on "Inca Roads" being a good example.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: I absolutely love speed comping!
2014/10/14 01:56:19
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brconflict
Sanderxpander
Brconflict, if the record mode is set to comping, you will hear the previous take as long as you haven't actually hit "record". I usually press play a bit in advance for a good lead in and then hit R a second or so before the actual line for sort of a punch in. I'm pretty sure you could also use sound on sound mode if you go line by line, and you can simply create two lanes in the same track to work with.
Just giving options, if you're happy with your workflow ignore me please :)
Right. The problem being that, when a vocalist is connecting run-on lines together (which we do, typically to save the vocalist's breath), hearing the previous line while tracking is paramount. The only way I've found this possible is to toggle takes between two different tracks. I'd love to see a quick little toggle button to allow JUST the last recorded Lane play, but mute the rest. Would help tremendously with manual punch-ins.
Unless I'm misunderstanding you, this is the way it works in comping mode. Only the last recorded lane plays. Although yes, it will make an automatic comping of sorts, taking the last recorded lane in any place. That could be take six in one spot and take three in another. But since hitting rec mutes all takes so you can only hear the current performance, that should work fine, I'd think...?
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Grem
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Re: I absolutely love speed comping!
2014/10/14 08:34:13
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Paul P
But I kept asking myself, is this how songs are done now ? Like each word or phrase can be from a separate take ?
I can't help but think that this is getting a bit far from performance, immediacy, risk, and all that.
Glad to see some people still create songs by singing them !
Just as guitar solos were spliced from different tkaes, so were vocals and these vocals were then "tuned" to correct pitch, all with tape!! What these people would do with tape would leave you with your jaw on the floor! It was an art unto itself. So lets be clear: Great records of the past had tuning done to vocals before Autotune came along. Great records of the past had guitar and vocals leads that were comped long before digital recording came along. Probably the last time a full on "Performance Committed to Medium" occurred when there was still records being recorded as you performed. Then some guy named Les Paul came along and messed it all up! : )
Grem
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brconflict
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Re: I absolutely love speed comping!
2014/10/14 10:06:09
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Gilmour had the right idea. Done this many, many times, myself. The creative part is the fade-ins/fade-out of each phrase.
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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Anderton
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Re: I absolutely love speed comping!
2014/10/14 10:28:28
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Grem
So lets be clear: Great records of the past had tuning done to vocals before Autotune came along. I used to sample off tape into an Emulator, use the pitch bend wheel to correct pitch, then record back on tape  Great records of the past had guitar and vocals leads that were comped long before digital recording came along.
Punching was also a highly developed art. I've sort of re-discovered punching with Sonar, sometimes it's simpler/faster than setting up to do comping.
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Anderton
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Re: I absolutely love speed comping!
2014/10/14 10:33:10
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brconflict
Gilmour had the right idea. Done this many, many times, myself. The creative part is the fade-ins/fade-out of each phrase.
Miles Davis took this concept to an extreme with In a Silent Way. If you listen carefully you can hear all the splices on the two-track master that joined different improvised sections together...it wasn't just individual parts, but the entire mix. It's done so seamlessly you're not even aware of it unless you're listening really carefully.
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joden
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Re: I absolutely love speed comping!
2014/10/14 13:06:16
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In my view, the more the general public are becoming aware of all the "tricks" used in "producing" rather than creating a record, the more interested they are becoming in wholistic recorded performances, away from all the studio fixups and modifications. Again jmo, but how a singer/instrument soloist can possibly maintain an overall ambience for a song when it is done in a myriad of takes is beyond me. If the vocal is so bad that even with a gazzilion takes they need autotune, then they should not be singing. Period! This and other aspects could be reasons why many of todays recordings sound the same with the same levels as energy as the next song and lack a certain...umm spontaneity. It is why I will always try and get a live concert recording (if available) rather than the produced studio version. Far more interesting. Unless of course the performers are using backing tracks  but THAT'S a whole other story 
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brconflict
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Re: I absolutely love speed comping!
2014/10/14 13:10:14
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Anderton
Grem
So lets be clear: Great records of the past had tuning done to vocals before Autotune came along.
I used to sample off tape into an Emulator, use the pitch bend wheel to correct pitch, then record back on tape
Great records of the past had guitar and vocals leads that were comped long before digital recording came along.
Punching was also a highly developed art. I've sort of re-discovered punching with Sonar, sometimes it's simpler/faster than setting up to do comping.
I'm not sure which is easier for me. If it's just me, comping is easier with punching in, but it's a terrible process to go back and navigate all the takes. I would love to see the Lanes auto-minimize each time a new one is created. If it's me recording another artist, it's still days faster and more efficient to just manually operate the transport than to comp or punch in. The only thing I miss from Sonar that the old AW4416 has was the ability to hit record while the transport was playing, manually punching in the artist with zero delay. I'm an old-school guy in this way and sometimes, a mechanical-feeling transport allows the engineer to "feel" the punch in vs. having to research where to punch in, if that makes sense.
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: I absolutely love speed comping!
2014/10/14 14:10:03
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This is what I've been saying and I do it all the time. Hit play and then R when you want the recording to start. You just have to arm the track beforehand.
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John
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Re: I absolutely love speed comping!
2014/10/14 14:45:11
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Its funny but I recall seeing a group known for the tightness on their albums. Live they sounded awful. I wont say who they were but they were hot in the 60s.
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Splat
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Re: I absolutely love speed comping!
2014/10/14 15:05:40
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I think there's a lot of misconception about the creative process and production. Personally I prefer being spontaneous however client might not have enough of that for the talent button. I've been known to spend 8 hours to get a vocalist to sing one song properly till they want to strangle me or their vocal chords fall out, and that's their own fault for not singing right in the first place.
The best gigs are the one's where they bring their own talent button with them, and then the issue is what to do with that much genius. Making genius sound like genius is supposed to is hard to do.
There are some genres though that require pure skill and repetition rather than being spontaneous. James Brown for instance would fine a band member for playing the wrong note...
It just depends on your approach, and who you are working with. And that generally alters all the time...
Sometimes I comp, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I purposely overwrite performances so I don't get too distracted. Sometimes I listen to the artist and give them everything they want. Sometimes I give them what they want but they just don't realise it yet...
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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Anderton
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Re: I absolutely love speed comping!
2014/10/14 16:35:43
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brconflict
The only thing I miss from Sonar that the old AW4416 has was the ability to hit record while the transport was playing, manually punching in the artist with zero delay.
To add to what Sanderexpander said, as long as the track is armed before you start the transport, you can also click on the Transport record button as well as type R. Works like a charm.
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brconflict
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Re: I absolutely love speed comping!
2014/10/14 16:46:41
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Anderton
brconflict
The only thing I miss from Sonar that the old AW4416 has was the ability to hit record while the transport was playing, manually punching in the artist with zero delay.
To add to what Sanderexpander said, as long as the track is armed before you start the transport, you can also click on the Transport record button as well as type R. Works like a charm.
Does that work well with sample buffering? I'd question the latency of the click to the actual recording takes place.
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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brconflict
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Re: I absolutely love speed comping!
2014/10/14 16:50:27
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Sanderxpander
brconflict
Sanderxpander
Brconflict, if the record mode is set to comping, you will hear the previous take as long as you haven't actually hit "record". I usually press play a bit in advance for a good lead in and then hit R a second or so before the actual line for sort of a punch in. I'm pretty sure you could also use sound on sound mode if you go line by line, and you can simply create two lanes in the same track to work with.
Just giving options, if you're happy with your workflow ignore me please :)
Right. The problem being that, when a vocalist is connecting run-on lines together (which we do, typically to save the vocalist's breath), hearing the previous line while tracking is paramount. The only way I've found this possible is to toggle takes between two different tracks. I'd love to see a quick little toggle button to allow JUST the last recorded Lane play, but mute the rest. Would help tremendously with manual punch-ins.
Unless I'm misunderstanding you, this is the way it works in comping mode. Only the last recorded lane plays. Although yes, it will make an automatic comping of sorts, taking the last recorded lane in any place. That could be take six in one spot and take three in another. But since hitting rec mutes all takes so you can only hear the current performance, that should work fine, I'd think...?
I should clarify. The previous lane is what I meant to say. For example, Lane 4 (and only Lane 4) would play unmuted, while I'm tracking the vocalist in Lane 5. That way, the vocal line in Lane 4 could be heard in the cans while the singer continues the flow in the armed and recording Lane 5. Once I press stop the Sonar could (wishfully) open and arm a new Lane (Lane 6), mute Lane 4, and unmute Lane 5. We would continue on from there. It's manual comping at its best! If it were possible, that is.
Brian Sonar Platinum, Steinberg Wavelab Pro 9, MOTU 24CoreIO w/ low-slew OP-AMP mods and BLA external clock, True P8, Audient ASP008, API 512c, Chandler Germ500, Summit 2ba-221, GAP Pre-73, Peluso 22251, Peluso 2247LE, Mackie HR824, Polk Audio SRS-SDA 2.3tl w/upgraded Soniccraft crossovers and Goertz cables, powered by Pass-X350. All wiring Star-Quad XLR or Monster Cable. Power by Monster Power Signature AVS2000 voltage stabilizer and Signature Pro Power 5100 PowerCenter on a 20A isolation shielded circuit.
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Sanderxpander
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Re: I absolutely love speed comping!
2014/10/14 16:54:32
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Yes this is exactly the way comping mode record works... Did you not try this yet or am I still misunderstanding you? :)
Perhaps you've been manually arming and muting lanes? That would bypass the default behavior which in my experience is exactly as you describe it.
To be clear, to get what you want, you have to PLAY the armed track (which will by default solo the previous take lane) and hit R as manual punch in when you want to start the recording. I do this all the time.
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Anderton
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Re: I absolutely love speed comping!
2014/10/14 17:00:17
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brconflict
Does that work well with sample buffering? I'd question the latency of the click to the actual recording takes place.
It sure seems plenty responsive. Give it a try. Even if your latency is something like 20 ms, it's hard to imagine you could click with an accuracy that fits in a 20 ms window. Did tape recorders need a relay to close or open to go into record? That would take a certain amount of time.
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sharke
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Re: I absolutely love speed comping!
2014/10/19 00:50:55
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Has anyone used take lanes and comping to stitch together a stereo part, i.e. using different takes to create a left part and a right part with subtle differences? I'm experimenting with my 15 takes of a 32-bar part, and it occurred to me that I could probably get two decent parts from those 15 takes by cloning the track and comping it again but using different slices this time. Of course I could just record another 15 takes and comp those into a new part, but I figured why bother getting my guitar out when I already have all those slices of takes going unused - many of which were perfectly good? It's a time consuming process but doable.
JamesWindows 10, Sonar SPlat (64-bit), Intel i7-4930K, 32GB RAM, RME Babyface, AKAI MPK Mini, Roland A-800 Pro, Focusrite VRM Box, Komplete 10 Ultimate, 2012 American Telecaster!
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