ebibault51
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase
2015/10/27 06:53:09
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sharke
The current way of moving huge chunks of a project around by lassoing and dragging them, or by inserting or deleting time, are fraught with problems, finicky and inconvenient. Being able to define song parts or "scenes" and order them on an arranger track would be so useful and make mapping out songs so much easier.
I'm a long time CPA / SONAR user and it's always a kind of nightmare when I realize that I need to insert a part somewhere (example: make room to copy a repeated chorus...). Maybe I am not very clever but I generally have to try it 3 or 4 times to succeed. In fact the "complicated options" like linked clips, shift by X measures create problems like bad position of the copied clips, or even SONAR crash! Finally I often decide to do it in several steps : insert new measures, copy and paste the clips. I will soon switch to Platinum, so maybe I will have a good surprise about this!
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Maarkr
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Re: An arrange window
2015/10/27 10:13:08
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YES please. Sony Acid is wonderful for this... wherever your cursor is, you select a menu item like "Insert time", then it asks how many bars you want to insert, and VOILA!, it splits and moves everything...done.
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BobF
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Re: An arrange window
2015/10/27 12:20:11
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Bob -- Angels are crying because truth has died ...Illegitimi non carborundum --Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64 Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U
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mudgel
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Re: An arrange window
2015/11/05 02:48:54
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Actually you don't have to create the space first. You can copy and paste using the move existing data over to make way for new, command.
I used to compare the arranger and scratchpad to Sonars Mix Recal but the Arranger and Scratchpad are Compositional / Arrangement tools versus Mix Recall which is a mixing tool.
I can work around the arrangement tools but given my choice I want it all. Having more time to think about it and look at different programs, I want the arranger to be gapless. If Presonus can do it why can't Cakewalk.
Having it work gapless is such a workflow plus compared to having to move the parts and wait for them to render.
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AdamGrossmanLG
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Arranger/Block Option For Easier Track Manipulation
2015/11/20 13:09:42
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Hello, I have an idea for Sonar - I think we need a "block" type way of moving clips around (see Reason and other DAWs). Imagine just being able to select "Verse 2" and then ALL CLIPS that from withing the verse 2 "block" get selected and moved automatically just by dragging the "block". This block would be at the very top of the track view up where the marker grid is. I setup a pseudo version of this myself but it has its limitations, please see the screen shot below, I labelled the track "**Marker Grid**", which is the first track at the top you see here:  I hope the bakers see this! I will put in another post for my "chords grid" idea, which you can see in track 2 :) Thank You!
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Vastman
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Re: Arranger/Block Option For Easier Track Manipulation
2015/11/20 20:38:26
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Given all the input about this I am curious what being baked...It's obviously one of the most desired additions... so I eagerly await what they cook up!
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wetdentist
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase
2015/11/26 10:11:59
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inhouseproducer
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase
2015/12/23 07:37:33
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I actually like the arrangement feature in Reason than Studio One
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Snehankur
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Re: An arrange window
2015/12/23 20:35:34
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mudgel
Actually you don't have to create the space first. You can copy and paste using the move existing data over to make way for new, command.
I used to compare the arranger and scratchpad to Sonars Mix Recal but the Arranger and Scratchpad are Compositional / Arrangement tools versus Mix Recall which is a mixing tool.
I can work around the arrangement tools but given my choice I want it all. Having more time to think about it and look at different programs, I want the arranger to be gapless. If Presonus can do it why can't Cakewalk.
Having it work gapless is such a workflow plus compared to having to move the parts and wait for them to render.
Dear Mike, I had seen a post some time back now not being able to find that [I will try to give the link] The "Gapless" is the main criteria for this request being pending so long. I think when number of audio clips is high and since Sonar keeps all the clips in a non-destructive way [Full clip as file] jumping from one time to another will be difficult to make gapless. Can be a temporary in-memory rendering just before playback, though that will delay the process? Regards Snehankur
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subtlearts
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Re: An arrange window
2015/12/28 19:23:43
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Very much interested in this here too!
Meanwhile, having just read through this thread and noticed some helpful suggestions I've not stumbled across before, I'm playing around now with a combination of the 'DIY marker track' (colourful dummy clips in a dedicated silent MIDI track) and clip groups to get a pseudo version of this going. It actually works pretty well, though there are limitations - it doesn't have auto-ripple features, can't auto-select any automation that isn't in a clip, and it's obviously more ponderous to move things around manually on the timeline than to be able to just whip up a playlist of sections and check it out, maybe even dropping things in on the fly as you go...
However, that is all quite possible in Matrix - I know that's another kettle of fish, and not necessarily perfectly adapted to creating song sections, which is often kind of a linear experience for many of us that doesn't necessarily transpose to the pattern-based mindset of the Matrix... BUT, having created the sections and clip groups in the timeline, it's rather simple to drop them into Matrix channels and then there they are, ready to go, and improvised playlists can at least be recorded in real time to empty spots on the timeline. (Automation sadly seems not to be handled at all in the Matrix, as far as I can tell, maybe someone can correct me here?)
Not the same as is being asked for, obviously, and I hope we can get the full meal deal at some point, but still... while we wait to see if/when this much-requested and apparently long-considered feature comes to fruition, this is something I can use now to rough out song structure without manually selecting and moving things every time. So that's progress! However, a full-fledged arrange feature would be more progress. Looking forward to seeing this soon... I hope...
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wetdentist
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Re: An arrange window
2016/01/13 11:55:03
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i was hoping that P5-like arrangement would have been part of the new announcement for 2016
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stevec
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Re: An arrange window
2016/01/13 14:39:16
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wetdentist
i was hoping that P5-like arrangement would have been part of the new announcement for 2016
That's one of things that really impressed me about that list of upcoming features - it states "Coming in Spring 2016". So if it's remotely accurate there's still a big chunk of 2016 to go.
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Stu_Art66
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase
2016/01/13 14:55:24
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Also adding my support for a song arrange feature, that can cope with all tracks (midi/audio + automation), maybe using the marker points and a simple way to say how many times repeated. Then ability to mix down/export the result back to a linear version. I still miss the ease of work flow I had from ye olde days of using Notator,(I know, but I am a grand-dad!  ), quickly changing where verses, choruses, etc went and how many repeats, when working with collaborators. I've grown to love Sonar and the great features and updates, but this area is still knocks my work flow as it still takes in a fair time with the cutting, copy 'n' paste; and although the Matrix looked to have potential, it takes a time too. So, to have such a feature would be a gift to my work flow and I'm sure to many others. Maybe summer potential? Best, S p.s. having just seen the Cubase arranger track, a version of that would be perfect....for me ;)
post edited by Stu_Art66 - 2016/01/13 18:19:03
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dcumpian
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase
2016/01/14 08:35:27
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+1 on an arranger Track. I don't need to move anything around, just have Sonar play it back in the order I tell it to.
Dan
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papacucku
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Re: Arranger tracks ala Cubase
2016/01/14 09:12:25
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Wow this thread is great but getting a little scattered. I wanted to comment on the take lane envelope comment way above. I came across this yesterday for the first time. I wanted to remove a gain envelope to a section of audio that was moved from another take lane which had gain envelope and found that the envelope follows the (split clip) . so I have to remember not to add envelopes until after I split and add take lanes if I do that for whatever reason. Not a big deal but I was surprised I could not select and delete the envelope. It would be awesome if we could easily post videos of us trying to do something, then expert users could post videos of how they do it, a lot of these feature requests are probably just not knowing some technique. Then we could help the bakers by saying see how hard this was, make it easier......etc.
post edited by papacucku - 2016/01/14 09:27:55
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BobF
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Re: Arranger tracks
2016/01/14 09:35:04
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Snehankur
Can it be done in a different manner?
Instead of GUI, a simple window with a 2-column structure [Marker Name, No of times]
In the main track view we can put as many markers we need and then we can call up the windows which initially will have the table of list of markers and default number of times=1.
We can then rearrange the sequence dragging each marker and if required we can change the number of times. Also Control+drag-drop will copy a marker.
Play back from within this window will be according to this sequence.
We can save sequences and recall.
I am not sure.
Regards.
Does anybody else here have a Zoom R24? If the R24's sequencer track concept was implemented in Sonar it would an awesome way to achieve this kind of function.
Bob -- Angels are crying because truth has died ...Illegitimi non carborundum --Studio One Pro / i7-6700@3.80GHZ, 32GB Win 10 Pro x64 Roland FA06, LX61+, Fishman Tripleplay, FaderPort, US-16x08 + ARC2.5/Event PS8s Waves Gold/IKM Max/Nomad Factory IS3/K11U
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kb420
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How about an Arranger Track?
2016/01/22 21:43:48
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I know by now that most of you have seen this in Studio One Version 3. I really think that something like this in Sonar would be great. I really love Sonar Platinum, and Cakewalk's dedication to adding new features and fixing bugs. I just thought maybe something like the Arranger Track would really be a great addition.
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kb420
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Re: How about an Arranger Track?
2016/01/22 22:22:34
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I didn't realize that there was already a thread about this.
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ricoskyl
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Re: How about an Arranger Track?
2016/04/17 18:03:50
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I apologize if this would be unworkable, but what about a "save selection as part" feature?
Here's how it might work: Save portions of the song as parts, name them (e.g. Chorus, Verse, Bridge) and make them available in the library, browser or a "song playlist." Similar to the idea that Snehankur suggested.
From this view, you could drag multiple verses into the songlist, rearrange items in the list (move up/down by dragging) and so on. Unlike S3. this approach would treat the major parts as single objects so you wouldn't have the flexibility to edit individual tracks unless you were ready to save another song part, but it would be a quick and easy (?) way to handle arrangements for preview.
Seems pretty doable with today's SONAR, but I have no idea what might be under the covers.
Rick
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: How about an Arranger Track?
2016/04/18 01:42:23
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ricoskyl
I apologize if this would be unworkable, but what about a "save selection as part" feature?
Here's how it might work: Save portions of the song as parts, name them (e.g. Chorus, Verse, Bridge) and make them available in the library, browser or a "song playlist." Similar to the idea that Snehankur suggested.
Thanks for the idea, but I don't think that's a workable solution as it more or less assumes that you already know your chorus, verse, etc upfront ... and save/load gets way too messy with several revisions of the song I'm probably the only here who has never seen Studio One, but Sonar I think would need to get a list of song sections (assigned graphically, intuitively, easily) so that it knows reference points of each section (start, end) so that it can jump to in playback and recording ... in terms programming it's all just a matter of a few reference pointers and buffering ;-) <<ohh I'm going to get hit for oversimplifying here>> and then do seamless playback using proper x-fades etc (of course all working with tempo variations and odd meters and so on) ... once you are happy with the "dynamic" arrangement where songs section float about arbitrarily, click a button to rearrange your song into what we currently have i.e. a linear structure from start to finish
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Snehankur
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Re: How about an Arranger Track?
2016/04/18 07:27:05
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RehabRob
ricoskyl
I apologize if this would be unworkable, but what about a "save selection as part" feature?
Here's how it might work: Save portions of the song as parts, name them (e.g. Chorus, Verse, Bridge) and make them available in the library, browser or a "song playlist." Similar to the idea that Snehankur suggested.
Thanks for the idea, but I don't think that's a workable solution as it more or less assumes that you already know your chorus, verse, etc upfront ... and save/load gets way too messy with several revisions of the song
I'm probably the only here who has never seen Studio One, but Sonar I think would need to get a list of song sections (assigned graphically, intuitively, easily) so that it knows reference points of each section (start, end) so that it can jump to in playback and recording ... in terms programming it's all just a matter of a few reference pointers and buffering ;-) <<ohh I'm going to get hit for oversimplifying here>> and then do seamless playback using proper x-fades etc (of course all working with tempo variations and odd meters and so on) ... once you are happy with the "dynamic" arrangement where songs section float about arbitrarily, click a button to rearrange your song into what we currently have i.e. a linear structure from start to finish
Hi Rob, ricoskyl has given as an example. My idea is just a list of markers/regions to be played as a sequence: ** Marker01 01:01:01 12:08:04 Marker02 13:01:01 16:08:04 Marker03 21:01:01 24:08:04 Marker04 31:01:01 40:02:04 Marker05 54:03:01 58:08:04 Marker03 21:01:01 24:08:04 Marker04 31:01:01 40:02:04 Marker01 01:01:01 12:08:04 Marker02 13:01:01 16:08:04 Marker01 01:01:01 12:08:04 We can save this only as an arrangement thought. May be some sections are not marked even if we intend to. We can make other sequence as well. Regards Snehankur ** Edit: I tried to put that as a table but it got changed.
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lfm
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Re: How about an Arranger Track?
2016/04/18 09:12:32
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Thanks again to all voters and further suggestions - even though my thread was merged.
One important thing for maximum usability is to also have enough options to select which clips go with a marker selection range. I think Cubase lack that a bit.
Example
For me at chorus or after a break and similar, drums often have a few hits just before - a tom and a crash and things like that. This mean for max flexibility - ability to select which clips that may go beyond the marker selections would be good - since these hits for drums in my case belong to the following section.
I was really hoping beginning this year - one year anniversary of rolling updates - that something major would be announced like arranger tracks or something really major. To my disappointment nothing showed on the major scale - but is still hoping to see Cakewalk determination continue and I can renew my membership.
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TheMaartian
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Re: How about an Arranger Track?
2016/04/18 11:24:44
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I would love to see a comment from the Bakers on this subject. This thread is over 2 years old. While I might speculate that if this were easy in SONAR, it would have been done already. Or I might speculate that there is some core redevelopment work still to do before attacking this feature. Or I might expectorate. I dunno.
Conceptually, the ability to work in song sections (vertically) AND in instruments (horizontally), makes obvious sense. It's taken some time for me (an amateur) to separate live looping (Ableton Live, Bitwig, etc.) from the concept of the Arrange View. I was fortunate be see a Nektar post that linked to a free copy of Bitwig 8-Track for Panorama owners. I played around with it for a bit and realized that live looping ain't my gig. And I got to do that for free. Bitwig uninstalled.
+1 for an Arrange View.
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: How about an Arranger Track?
2016/04/18 17:56:43
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TheMaartian
I would love to see a comment from the Bakers on this subject. This thread is over 2 years old.
+1 for an Arrange View.
In a very competitive market it's probably better to bake first and then talk :-) While many suggestions here are viable (like Snehankur's above), many come from a technical point as what is easily possible by extending existing options. I consider that approach too limited ... so I really hope that when Cake gets onto an arranger option, they approach it from a songwriters/arrangers perspective rather than from a too technical one ... It needs to be intuitive, you need to be able to move building blocks around, be able to duplicate them, crop them, keep them linked (so all update if you e.g. change the bass line in the chorus), break the link (if you deliberately want to change the chord progression e.g. for the last chorus) [ which is functionality that we have for individual MIDI clips, but that would have to apply also to audio], blend/x-fade the blocks (e.g. allow the drums/bass to come in half a measure earlier to always lead up to the chorus independent of if you are coming from the bridge or some solo section) ... and tempo flexibility would also be great (so that you don't have to manually stretch all audio clips after a tempo change) ... these are just a few things that come to my mind ... let's just keep feeding this thread so that it keeps getting Cakewalk's attention. personally I'm very happy with Sonar as the tool to produce, engineer and mix ... on the creative end it lacks and often slows down the creative flow. with a proper arranger option it could eventually beat the still preferred 3P approach (paper+pencil+piano)
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Kev999
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Re: How about an Arranger Track?
2016/04/19 00:14:50
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TheMaartian
I would love to see a comment from the Bakers on this subject...
See posts #34 & #40 earlier in this thread.
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Snehankur
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Re: How about an Arranger Track?
2016/04/19 03:51:47
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RehabRob
TheMaartian
I would love to see a comment from the Bakers on this subject. This thread is over 2 years old.
+1 for an Arrange View.
In a very competitive market it's probably better to bake first and then talk :-)
While many suggestions here are viable (like Snehankur's above), many come from a technical point as what is easily possible by extending existing options. I consider that approach too limited ... so I really hope that when Cake gets onto an arranger option, they approach it from a songwriters/arrangers perspective rather than from a too technical one ...
It needs to be intuitive, you need to be able to move building blocks around, be able to duplicate them, crop them, keep them linked (so all update if you e.g. change the bass line in the chorus), break the link (if you deliberately want to change the chord progression e.g. for the last chorus) [which is functionality that we have for individual MIDI clips, but that would have to apply also to audio], blend/x-fade the blocks (e.g. allow the drums/bass to come in half a measure earlier to always lead up to the chorus independent of if you are coming from the bridge or some solo section) ... and tempo flexibility would also be great (so that you don't have to manually stretch all audio clips after a tempo change) ... these are just a few things that come to my mind ...
let's just keep feeding this thread so that it keeps getting Cakewalk's attention. personally I'm very happy with Sonar as the tool to produce, engineer and mix ... on the creative end it lacks and often slows down the creative flow. with a proper arranger option it could eventually beat the still preferred 3P approach (paper+pencil+piano)
What I felt is Cakewalk never ignored this thread but tried to create this feature but realized that this will lack the seamless playback due to the technical limitation of disk access / buffering etc, which will lead to large number of posts of criticism. My question is do we need that level of seamless playback? Or we can sacrifice a bit. I tried to have markers and have two key to jump to next and previous marker. During play back going back and forth to a marker I didn't find much of glitches in the playback, though I have lesser number of active tracks. With those two keys I have limited option to jump to markers and its manual. Wish I could automate this. This is what I mentioned in the post. If we don't need highly seamless playback during trial we can get the idea of the sequences which we can shuffle and test. If we want to keep any or some of them as finals I believe Cakewalk can very well provide us a render button which will create seamless version. But jumping to specific marker (not prev or next) I am not aware about or may be CAL Scripts play a role here. Regards Snehankur
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lfm
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Re: How about an Arranger Track?
2016/04/19 05:30:15
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Snehankur
What I felt is Cakewalk never ignored this thread but tried to create this feature but realized that this will lack the seamless playback due to the technical limitation of disk access / buffering etc, which will lead to large number of posts of criticism.
My question is do we need that level of seamless playback? Or we can sacrifice a bit. I tried to have markers and have two key to jump to next and previous marker. During play back going back and forth to a marker I didn't find much of glitches in the playback, though I have lesser number of active tracks. With those two keys I have limited option to jump to markers and its manual. Wish I could automate this. This is what I mentioned in the post.
If we don't need highly seamless playback during trial we can get the idea of the sequences which we can shuffle and test.
If we want to keep any or some of them as finals I believe Cakewalk can very well provide us a render button which will create seamless version.
But jumping to specific marker (not prev or next) I am not aware about or may be CAL Scripts play a role here.
Regards
Snehankur
The ten markers can be jumped to in a flash of course - was it number key 0-9 or from control bar markers keypad. As a songwriting tool even if not seamless playback it's really good tool to finalize a flow of events in a piece of music. To see it as a scratchpad, kind of, seamless is not needed as I see it. You already realize something more is needed to make a song or piece of music better.So what are your options?a) Somewhat cumbersome insert time/silence and do copy paste.b) or drag a thumbnail in a playlist I can certainly live with small cracks or pops before deciding the flow. And if need a new part, you just do that last after everything else and add it to arrange list. If having the Cubase features of generating new projects from arranger playlist preset - we can make the project or projects where we do the final mixing on - once seing all needed parts are in place and in the right order on the Arranger Recall(to compare a bit to Mix Recall). And if rendering from an arranger playlist you have no realtime issues at all. I also read what Noel was kind enough to comment on - and for me it's arranging that is useful, not live anything. Cakewalk so often made better implementation on things that Cubase introduced - like freeze, track templates etc. Further wild ideas..... Maybe do it in three steps: Full project tracks copy paste insert --------------------------------- But a step in the right direction could be to have seamless copy paste - that really takes all automation, tempotrack and the lot over full range of tracks. Maybe like Paste Special where you select which parts are to be pasted. Full project range save as ----------------------------- Yet another approach could be to allow saving of a range of a project at a time in several sections - and an ability to reassemble those in any order later. Maybe embedded in project like Mix Recall. Then the dividing part need not be realtime at all - and easier to implement for devs. So Append Project feature - where same named tracks let original track header with plugin bays etc remain - and just append track content. If a new track, then just create that as is. Arranger tracks ----------------- Maybe the mystery of it all is clear how to do it within a project and then save new complete projects from that once set. And this could be two years from now.
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Rob[at]Sound-Rehab
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Re: How about an Arranger Track?
2016/04/21 06:42:07
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Snehankur
My question is do we need that level of seamless playback? Or we can sacrifice a bit. I tried to have markers and have two key to jump to next and previous marker. During play back going back and forth to a marker I didn't find much of glitches in the playback, though I have lesser number of active tracks. With those two keys I have limited option to jump to markers and its manual. Wish I could automate this. This is what I mentioned in the post.
IMHO we do need it. Seamless playback is very relevant because not everybody can "forward imagine" the finished product in the same manner, to give you an example: while it may be fine for you to test your ideas while jumping back and forth between markers, this will not work very well when you arrange and build on somebody else's ideas, especially if done in real-time with several people all contributing. You may have a certain idea in your head about what it will sound like, but the guy next to you envisions something totally different. so you can say "i'll put the section here, then jump to here, between those two we need a drum fill, and here we need the bass to walk down to the first chord of the verse, ..." that will leave your writing partners totally puzzled ... Or when you get into more advanced phases where tempo variations come into play, I cannot judge if a ritardando is good if it is followed by a 20 ms gap where I jump between markers ... Personally I'm only interested in a full blown arranger feature that incorporates a lot of new features (i.e. some major new feature like mix recall, patch points, drum replacer were) - a real game changer is what I vote for.
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mettelus
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Re: How about an Arranger Track?
2016/04/21 12:09:46
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Good luck with that. As arrangement with the transport stopped hasn't hit the radar yet, the "whole shebang" is most likely pretty far out there.
The "game changer" concept is sort of ironic, since SONAR is already in a tail chase on this one.
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