Helpful ReplyWhat DAW are you going to now?

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clintmartin
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Re: What DAW are you going to now? 2018/02/24 17:47:37 (permalink)
I don't blame Cakewalk for the lifetime upgrade thing, I blame Gibson.
Trying to hold Bandlab responsible for an offer they didn't make...seems silly to me.
I'm just glad someone sees the value of Sonar and is willing to take a business risk to purchase it.
Bandlab owes us nothing.
 

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#61
Soundwise
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Re: What DAW are you going to now? 2018/02/24 19:06:40 (permalink)
Thanks, Alexei!
Of all the "bugs" you listed I encountered only MIDI related ones, which are barely significant to me, if at all. Interesting how the same things can be considered minor shortcomings by some people and show-stoppers by other.

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#62
azslow3
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Re: What DAW are you going to now? 2018/02/24 19:39:34 (permalink)
Soundwise
Thanks, Alexei!
Of all the "bugs" you listed I encountered only MIDI related ones, which are barely significant to me, if at all. Interesting how the same things can be considered minor shortcomings by some people and show-stoppers by other.

I agree that audio part is significantly more stable and consistent.
But even for that part I can mention some problematic places
* ProChannel Compressor crash Sonar in case unaware control surface plug-in tried to control it (f.e. stock Mackie)
* some fancy automations related things, f.e. "orphaned" automations
* connecting audio interface to a different USB port can produce the same effect with audio IO as with MIDI
* Side chain and AUX sends can not be controlled from surfaces
* after browsing many REX loops, closing Sonar can take looong.
etc.
But I repeat, that all, even with MIDI problems, remote control problems and surfaces problems is not a show-stopper.
 
For me, the drift has happened after comparison. I mean I have found a set of "show-winners" in another DAW. And I have so far failed to find what I am going to miss there. Could I forgot something? Sure. So I have started to write (from what I know the first ever, among any DAWs) complete converter and write corresponding fine detailed comparison This whole week with 38.5-39 degree (inside me) has slowed me down a bit...

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#63
sharke
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Re: What DAW are you going to now? 2018/02/24 20:06:01 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby kitekrazy1 2018/02/25 02:54:20
Sonar has some pretty serious MIDI problems IMO. I have a lot of MIDI flying around in my projects - both from MIDI clips to synths, from MIDI clips to plugins, and from plugins that have MIDI output. All kinds of weird things start happening if you use this stuff. MIDI ends up in places where it shouldn't. As one example, I've seen situations in which doing something like hitting mute or solo on one track would trigger a note on a synth on a completely unrelated track whose MIDI input was completely unrelated to the track I hit mute on. Imagine a kick drum on a sampler triggering every time you hit mute on a piano track. That sort of thing. 
 
I appreciate that many have had a very stable, bug free experience with Sonar. But it really depends on how you use the program and what your projects look like. Mine are very synth and MIDI heavy, and I regularly had projects become so corrupted and problematic with all kinds of weird issues that I had to abandon them and recreate them from scratch. 
 
The problem is that many people on the forums have been of the attitude "well that doesn't happen to me, so I'm going to reiterate my opinion that Sonar is the best and most stable DAW ever, and call anyone who disagrees with it a whiner." I can sort of appreciate where that's coming from - I feel a little of that on any forum I'm a member on which someone won't stop ranting about a problem which I myself don't experience - but really, they're extremely valid concerns. Sonar should be able to handle all kinds of projects - there is nothing in the product description which says "only suitable for light projects that contain a few audio tracks with a handful of plugins on each." As an example, I've just finished recreating a project in Reaper that become completely unworkable and buggy in Sonar. The project is so large and FX/automation heavy that it took me over a week of working 4-5 hours a day to recreate in Reaper - yesterday I worked almost 12 hours to finish up the automation. So I have these two projects in Reaper and Sonar side by side with the same number of tracks and the same number of plugins, and I have to be brutally honest - the thing runs 20x more smoothly in Reaper with not one single problem or hiccup. I am absolutely over the moon with the increase in performance and stability, and in the process of recreating this project I didn't encounter one crash or one bug (I'm sure Reaper has bugs, it's just that they are nowhere near as serious as Sonar's). 
 
And in my final year of Sonar use, it developed that horrible problem of resetting plugins to defaults. I've been tearing my hair out to the point of insanity trying to deal with it, and as a beta tester spent dozens and dozens of hours trying to pinpoint how it was happening (with only limited success). This to me is a showstopper bug, and although it doesn't happen to everyone, it certainly happened to a certain proportion of users. Any new incarnation of Sonar is going to get off to a terrible start if it still has these problems. 
 
I don't know for sure why they were never fixed, but I don't think it was because of a lack of coding ability by Noel and the team. I really think it was because they just didn't have the time or resources to deal with bugs thoroughly. I'm sure a certain lack of priorities was to blame, but I have no doubt the new team can fix these bugs if given the time and resources. I'm hoping that BandLab will provide that for them. 

James
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#64
sharke
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Re: What DAW are you going to now? 2018/02/24 20:12:30 (permalink)
Also can I just add that I think Sonar needs a lot of polishing up. There are a lot of things which are not bugs per se but just really annoying and frustrating. As an example, when I'm working with FX automation envelopes in Sonar, oftentimes the tooltip feedback that I get from moving nodes does not relate to the actual parameter in any meaningful way. Let's say I'm automating the filter cutoff on The Drop plugin. When I'm moving nodes around, Sonar gives feedback for this parameter as a percentage of its range. What use is that if I need to move a node to, say, 1.5kHz? Doing this in Reaper, I found that it gives node values in exactly the same units as the plugin. Frequency is given in Hz. Things like this really do put people off Sonar when they demo it. 

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#65
azslow3
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Re: What DAW are you going to now? 2018/02/24 21:20:30 (permalink)
sharke
 The project is so large and FX/automation heavy that it took me over a week of working 4-5 hours a day to recreate in Reaper - yesterday I worked almost 12 hours to finish up the automation.

May be its time for "4 click solution"?
Looped audio and MIDI clips will need some correction, but (with a bit of luck...) ALL FXes and automations you can get transferred within one second.
 

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#66
sharke
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Re: What DAW are you going to now? 2018/02/24 21:47:19 (permalink)
azslow3
sharke
 The project is so large and FX/automation heavy that it took me over a week of working 4-5 hours a day to recreate in Reaper - yesterday I worked almost 12 hours to finish up the automation.

May be its time for "4 click solution"?
Looped audio and MIDI clips will need some correction, but (with a bit of luck...) ALL FXes and automations you can get transferred within one second.
 




Ha would be nice....I think at the time I started transferring by hand, I looked at the thread for your tool and it did not seem that full FX and automation transfer was completed yet....and that's probably a good thing, because by doing the full transfer by hand I became fully proficient with Reaper's basic functionality. I guess if I'd just clicked 4 times and that was that, I'd be looking at a full project now with no idea of where to go next 
 
It was also nice to recreate all of my automation from scratch. Sonar's automation drawing functionality is kind of screwed up and I always ended up with very messy envelopes with stray and superfluous nodes all over the place, not to mention those stupid dotted lines....was very nice to be able to do it so cleanly and accurately in Reaper. 

James
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#67
mettelus
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Re: What DAW are you going to now? 2018/02/24 21:48:57 (permalink)
azslow3
 
* consistency. Is there any post 8.5 feature which has no list of occasional or permanent funny "features"? Several general "highlights":
- only in some Platinum (so after more then 25 year) CW has managed to save MIDI inputs info into projects. But lol, even in the last version they have not managed to use that information properly. And in several last versions they have managed to break complete IO re-interpretation, so if some hardware is changed, Windows device manager and removing INI files is the only way to restore.
 



Well **** [insert 4-letter explicative of your choice]... I think I put in a FR years ago about being able to track MIDI routings in SONAR. I had resigned myself to always checking routings whenever opening a project (especially one that spanned versions), but this confirms I wasn't imagining things. Note to self, ask Alexey...
 
Side note - If Bandlab doesn't bend over backwards to steal Alexey, then they are making a huge folly going forward. He will end up writing scripts for REAPER at the going pace otherwise.

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#68
Kev999
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Re: What DAW are you going to now? 2018/02/25 00:37:36 (permalink)
sharke
...when I'm working with FX automation envelopes in Sonar, oftentimes the tooltip feedback that I get from moving nodes does not relate to the actual parameter in any meaningful way. Let's say I'm automating the filter cutoff on The Drop plugin. When I'm moving nodes around, Sonar gives feedback for this parameter as a percentage of its range. What use is that if I need to move a node to, say, 1.5kHz?...

 
This is something that I've always found inconvenient. I submitted a feature request about it as long ago as 2009, but that was ignored.

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#69
sharke
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Re: What DAW are you going to now? 2018/02/25 01:38:37 (permalink)
Kev999
sharke
...when I'm working with FX automation envelopes in Sonar, oftentimes the tooltip feedback that I get from moving nodes does not relate to the actual parameter in any meaningful way. Let's say I'm automating the filter cutoff on The Drop plugin. When I'm moving nodes around, Sonar gives feedback for this parameter as a percentage of its range. What use is that if I need to move a node to, say, 1.5kHz?...

 
This is something that I've always found inconvenient. I submitted a feature request about it as long ago as 2009, but that was ignored.




Sonar was full of stuff like this which seemed like it should be a quick, no-brainer fix but the fixes never came. This is what always made me suspect that there was some core legacy program structure which limited the Bakers as to what they could and couldn't implement (or even fix). Or at least they could fix it, but doing so would require extensive rewrites of legacy code and they just didn't have the time or resources to do that (especially if the "men upstairs" are yelling "MOAR NEW FEATURES!")
 
Anyway the net result was that Sonar gave off the impression of not being as user friendly as it could have been, and I'm sure it put a lot of new users off. There's a lot of stuff about the program that's confusing, counterintuitive and unexpected, and you heard the same frustrations from new users time and time again on the forum. How come my exported track sounds nothing like it does in Sonar, etc. That last one plagued me even after years of using Sonar. Oftentimes I would export a synth track and drag it back into the project only to be confronted by an empty wav and think "WHAT? WHAT? WHAT?" only to realize I hadn't fulfilled one of the gazillion conditions which make exports work properly, lol. And then of course there's "how do I do something as simple as map my controller to a VST parameter?" lots of confusion and digging around for answers. All of this stuff needs to rethought and made easier. 

James
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#70
kitekrazy1
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Re: What DAW are you going to now? 2018/02/25 03:08:06 (permalink)
BobF
I've spent quite a bit of time trying different DAW software over the last 18 mos.  My short list came down to Studio One and Reaper, with Reaper being my current favorite.  There is always the possibility that SO4 will change things, but I'm pretty much with Reaper.
 
An important distinction is included plugs/content.  If you need a phat bundle, then Reaper isn't a good choice.  I happen to have a great selection of VST/i, so I don't need the bundle.  YMMV
 
 




 
 I love that comment.  There are DAWs despite having a small exe file will still bloat your C drive. 

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Re: What DAW are you going to now? 2018/02/25 03:09:38 (permalink)
Kev999
sharke
...when I'm working with FX automation envelopes in Sonar, oftentimes the tooltip feedback that I get from moving nodes does not relate to the actual parameter in any meaningful way. Let's say I'm automating the filter cutoff on The Drop plugin. When I'm moving nodes around, Sonar gives feedback for this parameter as a percentage of its range. What use is that if I need to move a node to, say, 1.5kHz?...

 
This is something that I've always found inconvenient. I submitted a feature request about it as long ago as 2009, but that was ignored.




The staff view was ignored for a long time and many fled to Cubase. 

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#72
michael diemer
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Re: What DAW are you going to now? 2018/02/25 03:28:56 (permalink)
kitekrazy1
Kev999
sharke
...when I'm working with FX automation envelopes in Sonar, oftentimes the tooltip feedback that I get from moving nodes does not relate to the actual parameter in any meaningful way. Let's say I'm automating the filter cutoff on The Drop plugin. When I'm moving nodes around, Sonar gives feedback for this parameter as a percentage of its range. What use is that if I need to move a node to, say, 1.5kHz?...

 
This is something that I've always found inconvenient. I submitted a feature request about it as long ago as 2009, but that was ignored.




The staff view was ignored for a long time and many fled to Cubase. 


An interesting aside re: staff view, sonar vs cubase: While it's true that the requests to improve staff view were not answered, sonar's staff view was still very good. not as actual notation, of course, but as an editing tool. Cubase's staff view is actually pretty good as notation, but is unusable for me as an editing tool, because of this one fact: you cannot scroll-select notes across measures. You can only select the notes that you see in the view. If you try to go further, you get stopped the right edge of the view. The only way to do it is to go single instrument view. but then, you lose the advantage of having multiple instruments in the view, so you can copy paste and so on. Incredible that such a  high-end DAW would do this. This one thing stopped me from going to Cubase.

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#73
Kev999
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Re: What DAW are you going to now? 2018/02/25 04:01:34 (permalink)
michael diemer
kitekrazy1
The staff view was ignored for a long time and many fled to Cubase. 

An interesting aside re: staff view, sonar vs cubase: While it's true that the requests to improve staff view were not answered, sonar's staff view was still very good. not as actual notation, of course, but as an editing tool. Cubase's staff view is actually pretty good as notation, but is unusable for me as an editing tool, because of this one fact: you cannot scroll-select notes across measures. You can only select the notes that you see in the view. If you try to go further, you get stopped the right edge of the view. The only way to do it is to go single instrument view. but then, you lose the advantage of having multiple instruments in the view, so you can copy paste and so on. Incredible that such a  high-end DAW would do this. This one thing stopped me from going to Cubase.

 
I agree that Sonar's staff view is reasonably good, despite all the criticism that it receives. But I don't find it useful for editing. I use it for displaying several instruments together, to provide an overview of the arrangement and interplay between the different instruments. I tend use use it in conjuction with PRV, i.e. viewing (zoomed out) in the SV window while editing (zoomed in) in the PRV window.

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#74
Kamikaze
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Re: What DAW are you going to now? 2018/02/25 04:24:34 (permalink)
There was always the suspicion that they simply didn't know how the code worked for Staff View, which ties in with Sharke's comment abut the old code causing bugs.  It took a decade before seeking the help of Overture's developer, but Gibson put a stop to that.
 
EDIT: Named the wrong Notation software (Thanks Abacab) which I own ss I really shouldn't have.
post edited by Kamikaze - 2018/02/25 06:51:03

 
#75
abacab
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Re: What DAW are you going to now? 2018/02/25 04:27:20 (permalink)
I hope that Studio One can integrate a staff view into the base S1 program.  I have added the Notion 6 crossgrade to S1, but it is still a separate notation program.  For a quick view of the arrangement in the DAW it is great to be able to view the piano roll and the notation view at the same time, as can be done in Sonar.

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#76
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Re: What DAW are you going to now? 2018/02/25 04:31:03 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby Kamikaze 2018/02/25 06:51:13
Kamikaze
 
It took a decade before seeking the help of Ovation's developer, but Gibson put a stop to that.




I believe you may be referring to SonicScores Overture.
http://forum.cakewalk.com...-Updated-m3699129.aspx

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