jacktheexcynic
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martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
i've decided to get a new guitar although money-wise it will be a bit before it actually happens. i'm thinking a taylor or martin and my budget can go up to $1500. this will be my second acoustic (i have an ovation which is over 8 years old now) and i've been ready to move to an all-wood guitar for a long freakin' time. =) also i'm not into pretty stuff that doesn't affect tone, so i don't want to pay extra if it doesn't make a difference in the sound.
my first concern is tone, but of course it'll be my ear that decides which guitar's sound i like the best (and it may not even be a martin or taylor, i'm keeping a mostly open mind). if anyone has any other brand suggestions, i play mostly acoustic/folk rock and do a lot more strumming than fingerpicking. i definitely need a cutaway though.
my second concern is the built-in preamp. i know that taylor's expression system is supposed to be awesome, but never having heard it i'm wondering just how good it is. the reason is that my recording space is quite terrible and being in an apartment, not likely to improve much. a preamp tends to cut down on nasty echoing (my ovation's does anyway) so that's an important point for me. now it may be that the guitar sounds good enough that the "natural reverb" doesn't suck but i'm not counting on it.
thanks for any input.
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j boy
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 16, 06 7:53 PM
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The built-in preamps for acoustic guitars are geared more towards performing than recording IMO. If you are going to gig with it, then it's a good way to go. But for recording I would use a mic (or mics), myself. It isn't that hard to set up some sheets or something to fashion a make-shift *booth* if the acoustics in your room aren't all that. I get excellent results using a matched pair of Rode NT-5's for stereo, or a Shure KSM-44 if I want a mono track.
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OffAnAirplane
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 16, 06 8:39 PM
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I would pick a Taylor over a Martin any day, for sound quality. Martins are good, but not worth the money, in my opinion. Larivee's are also nice. The cheapest Taylor that they make is still quite nice. I play a 710ce, but I would buy one without pickups if I had it to do over again. I second what Jboy said, you are never going to get the sound out of a pickup that you will out of a decent condensor mic.
post edited by OffAnAirplane - August 16, 06 8:52 PM
Rom 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
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Joe Bravo
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 17, 06 0:06 PM
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I haven't played a Martin I liked in years. Its hard to go wrong with a Taylor. But considering the way you describe your band and playing needs, I'd say your Ovation should serve you well. I'd save my money. Its true that its difficult to get a decent recording of acoustic guitar by going direct. I've tried lots of different options.
post edited by Joe Bravo - August 17, 06 0:18 PM
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bill durham
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 17, 06 12:15 AM
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When I was shopping for an acoustic electric, my biggest criteria was I didn't want a dreadnaught body style. I already had one in a Gibson SJ Deluxe. The thick body just gets to be hard to play for me after awhile. The tone is definetly boomier with a dreadnaught but that wasn't what I was looking for soundwise. I ended up with a Martin 000-16DCE (I think thats right). Its a single cutaway, auditorium sized body with Fishman Electronics which has both a pickup and a piezo mic that you can blend. I agree with everybody else though, if you are going to record it, mic it. You can always record the pickups as well and blend them in to make it a little fatter. I liked the feel of the Martin over the other guitars I played...which were Taylors, Takemine's etc. I did not try a Larivee as they weren't available where I live, but I have heard great things about them.
I would also recommend that you play them and trust your ears....I paid $1100 for my Martin 3 years ago, they are up to around $1400 now I think.
BD
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Opus
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 17, 06 7:58 PM
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I've played a bunch of guitars over the years and they are like girls, some play nicer then others. Martins have gotten overpriced, your paying for the name. Taylors are trully wondeful, and have great tone range. Gotta go with J Boy on this, If your recording, Mics are the only way. Although I put on a Seymour Duncan Magmic and combine that with external mics to give a wide range of sounds. The bottom line is..... you have to be happy with her, I've played with some real diamonds in the ruff that were beautiful and some diamonds that where glass ! Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. Just go play the field till you find one that fits. If I had to buy a guitar without playing it first, It would be a Taylor Let us konw how you make out 
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 17, 06 8:09 PM
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ORIGINAL: j boy
The built-in preamps for acoustic guitars are geared more towards performing than recording IMO. If you are going to gig with it, then it's a good way to go. But for recording I would use a mic (or mics), myself. It isn't that hard to set up some sheets or something to fashion a make-shift *booth* if the acoustics in your room aren't all that. I get excellent results using a matched pair of Rode NT-5's for stereo, or a Shure KSM-44 if I want a mono track.
yeah i'll probably have to spring for better mics (all mine are solidly in the budget range). i think if i find a guitar with the tone/playability i like for cheap, i'll spring for a couple decent condensors. i'm just trying to figure out if the preamp is worth it - i doubt i'll do much gigging since i'm a solo artist and if i do the ovation sounds pretty good live (just not so much when recording) and i won't be trading it in. you'd laugh if you'd seen the lengths i've gone to in reducing echo in my recording space. my low point was putting a blanket over my head and the guitar (surprise, there was still echo...). really kills a person's ability to play when they're under a blanket. i'm going to try putting it in a different place to see if i can isolate the room size a bit more.
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OffAnAirplane
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 17, 06 8:11 PM
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ORIGINAL: jacktheexcynic
ORIGINAL: j boy
The built-in preamps for acoustic guitars are geared more towards performing than recording IMO. If you are going to gig with it, then it's a good way to go. But for recording I would use a mic (or mics), myself. It isn't that hard to set up some sheets or something to fashion a make-shift *booth* if the acoustics in your room aren't all that. I get excellent results using a matched pair of Rode NT-5's for stereo, or a Shure KSM-44 if I want a mono track.
yeah i'll probably have to spring for better mics (all mine are solidly in the budget range). i think if i find a guitar with the tone/playability i like for cheap, i'll spring for a couple decent condensors.
i'm just trying to figure out if the preamp is worth it - i doubt i'll do much gigging since i'm a solo artist and if i do the ovation sounds pretty good live (just not so much when recording) and i won't be trading it in.
you'd laugh if you'd seen the lengths i've gone to in reducing echo in my recording space. my low point was putting a blanket over my head and the guitar (surprise, there was still echo...). really kills a person's ability to play when they're under a blanket. i'm going to try putting it in a different place to see if i can isolate the room size a bit more.
Might I suggest the Shure SM-81. You can buy a pair of them used on eBay for about $300 - 350. Excellent for acoustic guitar, and also good for drum overheads. But you don't have to buy two, even just one sounds awesome.
post edited by OffAnAirplane - August 17, 06 8:24 PM
Rom 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 17, 06 8:28 PM
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ORIGINAL: OffAnAirplane
I would pick a Taylor over a Martin any day, for sound quality. Martins are good, but not worth the money, in my opinion.
Larivee's are also nice. The cheapest Taylor that they make is still quite nice. I play a 710ce, but I would buy one without pickups if I had it to do over again.
I second what Jboy said, you are never going to get the sound out of a pickup that you will out of a decent condensor mic.
from what i've seen on the web most of the cheaper taylors (and martins for that matter) don't have cutaways... i was planning on buying the guitar at a store of course but knowing what i want ahead of time could save some legwork. i definitely want a cutaway. i think i just won't worry about the pickups and buy the guitar that sounds and plays the best for under $1500.
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tbonedeluxe
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 17, 06 8:36 PM
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I'm surprised this hasn't turned into one of the Mac vs PC discussions...... I'm a Taylor guy and i've got to say that the expression system through a really good preamp (I use the DTAR live) is just awesome. I've heard great things about the Martin with Fishman Aura system though and it's about that price range. Both would be worth looking at. Play a few - no two guitars of even the same make and model are the same (though Taylors tend to be more consistent that way).
Of course I agree re: mic's to record. You can get some great sounds with a DI from the expression system and a mic (I prefer large diaphram AKG414 or the like) with the pickup to mix a warmer sound with the built in.
My bottom line is - get a guitar that feels really good to play, and that makes you want to sit down and keep playing. There are workaround's for everything else.
TBone
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 17, 06 8:52 PM
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ORIGINAL: Joe Bravo
I haven't played a Martin I liked in years. Its hard to go wrong with a Taylor. But considering the way you describe your band and playing needs, I'd say your Ovation should serve you well. I'd save my money.
i don't really like the tone of my ovation. it's a shallow bowl with the multiple small sound holes and the tone is simply hollow and flat sounding. i want a "woodier" more natural tone, which i realize may end up being harder to mix but since my songs feature the guitar prominently i need to be able to stand how they sound and right now i don't. =)
Its true that its difficult to get a decent recording of acoustic guitar by going direct. I've tried lots of different options.
the ovation pickup is actually quite decent once it's been carved out with some eq, just not enough for recording purposes. i listened to some of the samples on that site, and they sound pretty good but again, not the caliber of sound you can get with mics. perfect for live play but like i said above, i'm mostly doing recording and not live playing. i'd definitely keep the ovation for live work.
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 17, 06 9:20 PM
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ORIGINAL: bill durham
I liked the feel of the Martin over the other guitars I played...which were Taylors, Takemine's etc. I did not try a Larivee as they weren't available where I live, but I have heard great things about them.
yeah playability is going to be a big deal for me too but i think that's more of a personal thing than tone is. i'm a strummer but i do a lot with my left hand so i need a fast neck and low action.
I would also recommend that you play them and trust your ears....I paid $1100 for my Martin 3 years ago, they are up to around $1400 now I think.
yeah i've loved every martin i've tried out but man are they expensive. i definitely am not into paying for a name, even if it is martin.
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 17, 06 9:21 PM
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ORIGINAL: Opus
I've played a bunch of guitars over the years and they are like girls, some play nicer then others.
Martins have gotten overpriced, your paying for the name.
Taylors are trully wondeful, and have great tone range.
Gotta go with J Boy on this, If your recording, Mics are the only way.
Although I put on a Seymour Duncan Magmic and combine that with external mics to give a wide range of sounds.
The bottom line is..... you have to be happy with her,
I've played with some real diamonds in the ruff that were beautiful and some diamonds that where glass !
Beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
Just go play the field till you find one that fits.
If I had to buy a guitar without playing it first,
It would be a Taylor
Let us konw how you make out
haha great analogy. well when i do get the guitar i'll post about it. it'll probably be awhile, gotta save up the rest of the money and i've got to try out a bunch of em before i pick one. =)
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 17, 06 9:24 PM
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ORIGINAL: OffAnAirplane
Might I suggest the Shure SM-81. You can buy a pair of them used on eBay for about $300 - 350.
Excellent for acoustic guitar, and also good for drum overheads.
But you don't have to buy two, even just one sounds awesome.
those are pricey but worth it i bet. if i end up buying a $1000 guitar i'll definitely have to consider picking up a pair. =)
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 17, 06 9:29 PM
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ORIGINAL: tbonedeluxe
I'm surprised this hasn't turned into one of the Mac vs PC discussions...... I'm a Taylor guy and i've got to say that the expression system through a really good preamp (I use the DTAR live) is just awesome. I've heard great things about the Martin with Fishman Aura system though and it's about that price range. Both would be worth looking at. Play a few - no two guitars of even the same make and model are the same (though Taylors tend to be more consistent that way).
Of course I agree re: mic's to record. You can get some great sounds with a DI from the expression system and a mic (I prefer large diaphram AKG414 or the like) with the pickup to mix a warmer sound with the built in.
My bottom line is - get a guitar that feels really good to play, and that makes you want to sit down and keep playing. There are workaround's for everything else.
TBone
thanks for the advice. yeah i was worried this would get sidetracked but so far no die-hard martin guys have showed up. =) i'll probably just play a lot of guitars and pick the one i like the most. my main question here is whether i should consider the quality of the pickup for what i do and i think the answer is "no." thanks everyone for your input and if anyone has something else to add by all means do so.
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Joe Bravo
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 17, 06 9:46 PM
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Hey Derick, I don't think any of those pickups on my test page are good enough to record with in the studio. I was just showing what they sound like. I think the Sunrise was easily the best of them. I've tried several others too. I played through an Expression system once at Guitar Center but I went through an acoustic amp, so while it sounded good like that, it wasn't the same as recording with it, so I can't really say what its like recording wise; the jury's still out on that one. I'll tell you another one I listen to once that I liked was a Taylor with a Fishman system in it. It was one of those that has an under saddle piezo plus a mini mic (a tiny dot) on the preamp that sits just under the soundhole rim. I played that through a Yamaha AG Stomp and listened through the headphone outputs. Again, its not the same as recording in a studio but it sounded darn good I thought. I brought my own headphones along and also took my guitar with the Sunrise in it and my Boss AD5 preamp so I could compare the two guitar systems. I also traded the guitars around with the preamps to see what that sounded like. The Taylor w/ the Fishman sounded best through the AG Stomp but my Yairi with the Sunrise sounded best through the AD5. Sometimes you have to find a good marriage of pickup and preamp. There's a Neve preamp available for the Expression system that I'd love to hear sometime. Maybe they finally got it right. It would be nice. I would record a lot more if I didn't have to wear headphones. I just hate that.
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tomek
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 18, 06 7:19 AM
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ORIGINAL: jacktheexcynic
my low point was putting a blanket over my head and the guitar (surprise, there was still echo...). really kills a person's ability to play when they're under a blanket. i'm going to try putting it in a different place to see if i can isolate the room size a bit more.
HAHA that's funny! Have you tried recoring in the bathroom with towels everywhere?
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Dave King
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 18, 06 12:27 AM
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Oops! Here comes the diehard Martin fan.
Actually, when I bought my last guitar, I checked out the Taylors and Martins.
My feeling is that the Taylor's are more "playable" than the Martins, but the Martins sound better. I went with the Martin.
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OffAnAirplane
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 18, 06 12:34 AM
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ORIGINAL: Dave King
Oops! Here comes the diehard Martin fan.
Actually, when I bought my last guitar, I checked out the Taylors and Martins.
My feeling is that the Taylor's are more "playable" than the Martins, but the Martins sound better. I went with the Martin.
What I have heard from several bluegrass musicians who play Martins, is that they prefer the sound of the Taylors, but they don't hold up to the abuse of bluegrass playing like Martins do.
Rom 8:18 For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us.
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ohhey
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 18, 06 1:59 PM
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ORIGINAL: Dave King
Oops! Here comes the diehard Martin fan.
Actually, when I bought my last guitar, I checked out the Taylors and Martins.
My feeling is that the Taylor's are more "playable" than the Martins, but the Martins sound better. I went with the Martin.
I think most Martin guitars (the large ones) are not good for recording much other then bluegrass or songs with only acoustic guitar. To fit into a dense mix I think you need more brass and less "thud" on the low end and less mid bass (boom) overall then a large martin. The smaller martins seem to be fine with fairly new strings. Most Taylor guitars have a brighter and more balanced tone so they fit in a mix well without swamping it. I think I would like a small body martin for a living room jam or performing solo miced up but for studio I like to use the Taylor. As for electronics the old high end Fishman system in the older Taylors like I have is fantastic, I can't imagine a tone I can't get with that thing it has a amazing range of control built right in. The new Taylor system just sounds like mud to me and it's sad you can't get the Fishman anymore. I'm glad I got my Taylor when I did. By the way I still have the hand made Yamaha L series in my photo from 1991 (last year the old ones were made). Great sounding guitar and my first choice for the living room jam. I'm not sure how but it's warm and bright and balanced all at the same time. It's a keeper. I noticed Yamaha is making them again but the price is just over the top now.. three or four times what the old ones were.
post edited by ohhey - August 18, 06 2:16 PM
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 18, 06 6:55 PM
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ORIGINAL: Joe Bravo
Hey Derick, I don't think any of those pickups on my test page are good enough to record with in the studio. I was just showing what they sound like. I think the Sunrise was easily the best of them.
yeah i was really surprised actually at how good they sounded. don't know if they doctored the recordings or anything (probably a high-pass at least) but way better than what i'm getting now. i did notice some weird phaseiness though on the sunrise sample. it wasn't pronounced but i could hear it a little bit.
IThe Taylor w/ the Fishman sounded best through the AG Stomp but my Yairi with the Sunrise sounded best through the AD5. Sometimes you have to find a good marriage of pickup and preamp. There's a Neve preamp available for the Expression system that I'd love to hear sometime. Maybe they finally got it right. It would be nice. I would record a lot more if I didn't have to wear headphones. I just hate that.
headphones really tank my playing ability. i don't know what it is. it takes me a while to shake it off and get a good track down. when i record scratch tracks i don't bother with phones or metronome and i do pretty good. if i could just forget i'm recording i'd get stuff done a lot faster. =)
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 18, 06 7:01 PM
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ORIGINAL: tomek
ORIGINAL: jacktheexcynic
my low point was putting a blanket over my head and the guitar (surprise, there was still echo...). really kills a person's ability to play when they're under a blanket. i'm going to try putting it in a different place to see if i can isolate the room size a bit more.
HAHA that's funny!
Have you tried recoring in the bathroom
with towels everywhere?
haven't tried the bathroom yet. for one thing my headphones would never reach and my desk isn't that mobile. i guess some people get snakes or whatever and record anywhere they like... the bathroom might actually be a good space, but the other two rooms in my apartment (bedrooms, square) ring like crazy.
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Delta_Slider
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 19, 06 3:31 PM
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ORIGINAL: Dave King
Oops! Here comes the diehard Martin fan.
Actually, when I bought my last guitar, I checked out the Taylors and Martins.
My feeling is that the Taylor's are more "playable" than the Martins, but the Martins sound better. I went with the Martin.
I can't emphasize more that it's real important to keep an open mind about what you are buying. It also really helps to know what you want the guitar to do. The last purchase I made was for my first fingerstyle guitar. I wanted a small body. I already owned a nice Taylor 12 string and was convinced I should buy another Taylor. But being tight on money and paraniod about buying a guitar I might not like later made me really take my time and play a lot of guitars. Over and over I kept going back to the Martin, a triple O style in the 16 series. This is a very affordable series and has similiar appointments as the Taylor 300 and 400 series. I bought the Martin and it was cheaper than the Taylor. So I own one of each and love 'em both. So I wanted to chime in with Dave, here, and defend the Martins! BTW, I have an old, plywood Yamaha that sounds great...ya never know...
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Trent in WA
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 20, 06 6:33 PM
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Jack, it sounds like you're dealing with three separate issues here: your guitar, your recording space, and your mic. You probably aren't going to get a recorded acoustic guitar sound that you like unless and until you address all three of those issues.
WRT the guitar, since you already have one that's set up for plugging up and playing live, were I in your shoes I'd look for a guitar that didn't duplicate its functions. Think about getting a purely acoustic guitar--onboard electronics will add a couple hundred dollars to the price of the guitar. And unless there's a really compelling reason why you must have a cutaway (i.e. you regularly play chordal passages above the 14th fret), I'd think seriously about skipping that along with electronics--again, cutaways are expensive additions.
I'm pretty sure you can get an unadorned solid wood Martin or Taylor for around a thousand. You should also check out some of the Larrivees. I know from experience than the Larrivee OM-03 series guitars record beautifully and their street prices is under a thousand. You'll then have some extra money you can use to address the microphone and room issues.
Hope this helps,
Trent
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Duojet
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 20, 06 10:12 PM
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i have to say i prefer the sound of martins over taylors. warmer, "woodier" tone. as far as recording i think they sound great if you use the right mic in the right location. i use an oktava mk-012 pointed at the point where the neck meets the body. i agree with others here that an external mic is the best way to go for recording.
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 21, 06 9:00 PM
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ORIGINAL: Trent in WA
Jack, it sounds like you're dealing with three separate issues here: your guitar, your recording space, and your mic. You probably aren't going to get a recorded acoustic guitar sound that you like unless and until you address all three of those issues.
WRT the guitar, since you already have one that's set up for plugging up and playing live, were I in your shoes I'd look for a guitar that didn't duplicate its functions. Think about getting a purely acoustic guitar--onboard electronics will add a couple hundred dollars to the price of the guitar. And unless there's a really compelling reason why you must have a cutaway (i.e. you regularly play chordal passages above the 14th fret), I'd think seriously about skipping that along with electronics--again, cutaways are expensive additions.
I'm pretty sure you can get an unadorned solid wood Martin or Taylor for around a thousand. You should also check out some of the Larrivees. I know from experience than the Larrivee OM-03 series guitars record beautifully and their street prices is under a thousand. You'll then have some extra money you can use to address the microphone and room issues.
trent, thanks for the advice. i'll give the non-cutaway guitars a shot. i rarely go above the 14th fret but i don't like being limited by the instrument. i think the ovation would sound alright if it wasn't for the recording environment, but the acoustics of the room just bring out everything i don't like about the ovation's tone. it's actually great for fingerstyle though, i just don't do much of that.
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Trent in WA
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 22, 06 4:31 PM
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I really wouldn't worry about the lack of a cutaway limiting you if you're not spending much time "up there" at present.
It sounds like the weak link in your current setup isn't the guitar or the mic, but your room. One good piece of advice I picked up somewhere (maybe in Jeff Strong's Home Recording for Dummies): Think of a square or oblong room as being made up of three pairs of opposing walls, a North / South pair, and East / West pair, and the Floor / Ceiling pair. You can deaden the room if you deaden just one wall in each pair. For instance, suppose the window in the room is in the West wall. You might try putting up a fabric wall hanging along the East wall, a bookcase with books on the South wall, and a large throw rug with backing on the floor.
See, recording advice and home decorating help all in one place. What a forum!
Trent
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 22, 06 7:53 PM
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thanks for the info on the wall pairing - makes perfect sense but i've never thought of it like that before. yeah this forum is pretty awesome. =)
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Joe Bravo
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 22, 06 8:44 PM
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Speaking of cutaways, its much harder to make a guitar sound good with one than without. Taylor does it pretty well though so that might be another thing in favor of them if you really want to have a cutaway. Bourgeois is probably noted for the best acoustic cutaway models but then your into a higher price range.
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jacktheexcynic
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RE: martin and taylor acoustic-electrics
August 22, 06 8:54 PM
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ORIGINAL: Joe Bravo
Speaking of cutaways, its much harder to make a guitar sound good with one than without. Taylor does it pretty well though so that might be another thing in favor of them if you really want to have a cutaway. Bourgeois is probably noted for the best acoustic cutaway models but then your into a higher price range.
my ovation has a cutaway... i think most of them do actually. it's only the really expensive ones that are full-bodied. i agree with you though - the full-bodied guitars always sound fuller than a cutaway guitar, and it's easier to take away too much body than add it when it's not there.
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