guitartrek

Danny Danzi

I have that Waves pack here actually. It's a pretty cool suite...however, for insane rock/metal, it falls way short. For mild drive, blues, cleans, jazz, it's a great plug suite. Not to sound biased, but my heart still belongs to the ABG stuff as I just feel it has everything anyone could ever want out of a software amp. :)

-Danny

Yeah - I couldn't find any really cool hi gain stuff on the Waves GTR3, or at least nothing better than what I was using. 
 
I did like ABG - I installed on my old 32bit system.  But when I switched to 64bit I never installed it.  I wanted to download a new version, but I didn't know where to grap it.  As I remember it sounded pretty organic - tubes to me.  Really good push/pull valve feel to it - better than the other sims I've tried.  I wonder if that's that "input gain" you're talking about?  Your demos of ABG are truly amazing.
 

FWIW, I do have GTR and it's probably my favorite for middle of the road stuff - but I always end up using impulses with that one too.



And you're right about those examples Danny posted a while ago. Jaw dropping.


Philip and Tim both mention that it's about the song first and I do agree - which makes my current struggle with sims even more of a paradox. In the end, what I'm after is pretty simple.


FWIW, I'm really not that difficult with guitar sounds - I like "bad" tones just as much as I like more refined subtle stuff. Because that's how I think of them - types. If I'm after a Vox type of sound, I'll probably be just as happy with an approximation using anything I have at my disposal at the moment. Even with only a little 15W Marshall Valvestate and a 57, I can sum up all the types of tones I need. I'm definitely more from the old Jimmy Page school of thought. But as far as amp sims, this doesn't seem to translate all that easily. 

So, just to be clear, I'm really not after something as epic as Van Halen or Steve Vai. To be perfectly honest, one of my all time favorites for guitar tones still is Stone Temple Pilots' Songs from the Vatican Gift Shop. It has the variety, the "bad" tones, the unlikely, the stuff that's silly bit itself but works in the arrangement. Or more recently, stuff like Them Crooked Vultures. It's doubtful that anyone would refer to any of that stuff as amazingly well crafted guitar tones. I guess I like the sound of old small amps. Or then, the previously mentioned Alice in Chains for beefier guitars. 

Anyway I didn't really spent much time looking for references since the issue seems to be the same with almost all those tones - at least from my point of view. It's the same thing which eludes me, and my solution so far is the same for all of them - cab impulses + room impulses. And maybe still looking for something to add a bit of consistency before the sound reaches the converters. 

In that optic, I'm demo'ing Audio Ease's Cabinet, which, if it works, would at least simplify those extra steps - one interface, a couple of cabs, a knob to mix microphones, a room knob and not too much more.

Thanks Danny. :)

It's still all pretty much in the air, as I'm just gathering material and putting songs together, and ultimately, my fiancée will have the last word on the the overall tone of the thing. So I myself am still experimenting will all sort of sounds, and the "heaviest" example she gave me was, to me, Cantrell-esque in essence. I'm not expecting to have to go beyond that amount of drive. And though I mention STP and TCV, we might no end up that "dirty" either. 

All I know is that, after an unsatisfying/impersonal first album with top notch session musicians and polished production as dictated by the record company, she wants something a lot more rock, a bit less polished, something that'll sound more like a real rock band than a generic/paid by the hour studio band. 

Still, through all those things, the issue remain pretty much the same so I felt like any input the good folks around here could provide could probably be useful.

Too bad I lost an old Dean Markley tube drive I used to have in a move a few years ago. This could indeed have been something I could have tried to maybe warm up the sound up a bit. I guess it'll be one more reason to enjoy my stay in NY - I should be able to find whatever it is that I'll need here. 

Thanks again.

Rain


But as far as Waves, NI and the others, I don't think you'd find anything there that really has more convincing tones than Pod Farm. 

I do.
The art drawn with a #2 pencil is really not the pencil....IMO

Well, this is one complicated question for me to answer.

1. I am not really anywhere near a proficient guitarist. I do not say that to act modest or anything, since I think I do put out some really good guitar work on my tunes. In terms of ideas: they never seem to stop coming. However, just about every lead you hear on my stuff is a composite of a bunch of takes. I am sloppy, have awful pick control, and have a wandering meter.

2. That being said, it is virtually impossible for me to just have a miced setup and record an amped guitar and do anywhere near the quality I expect of myself.

3. I have Amplitube, GR4, and a hundred other amp VSTs. The only one I can consistently use is POD Farm 2. Their heavy stuff just cuts through so much better in the mix.

4. Tim, I agree, it is ALWAYS about the song. However, with the array of tone choices in something like POD X3, tone is insipration, and just about every song I write with guitar was propelled by the feeling I got with a certain tone, though that doesn't meant the original tone is what I end up using in the mix. In fact, my most promblematic mixes are when I recorded directly out of POD X3, without bothereing to make a dry signal take.

I've seen this topic here more times than I can remember through the years.

I can understand one seeking sounds and equipment to please them.
What is hard to understand is;

I don't know of a single guitarist for instance that can't stand using...let's say, Line 6 but
can't tell you that Line 6 is what somebody else used in a recording.

I believe if the members in this thread that posted audio examples wouldn't have mentioned what they used....nobody would know. Somebody may take a lucky guess or known because they've mentioned it many times that they only use a certain set-up.

Of course it is very easy to prove me wrong. Somebody step and say- "I don't care what you use. Record something and let me hear it and I will tell you exactly what you used."
And then do it.
Until then...it's just a matter of what floats your boat. The market says there are a lot of guitarist using a lot of different equipment and sounding very good at it.

So....where's the one with the golden ears?...please speak up.

the reason i posted (4) examples, with details, was to illustrate by actual audio, the differences between capturing sounds using a Pod XT, microphone, Palmer PDI-09, and a blending of techniques.

i can clearly hear the differences between all 4 examples.

i don't know if that means i have golden ears, tin ears, or if it just means because i knew what i used it tilts my opinioin, and therefore can't objectively be used.....!

heheh

hey, i'm trying to help here.

but no one.......... even responded to my post.
ultimately, it does not matter what someone uses, if they get the result they want.

my story is simple:
i tried the artificial amp sounds for 2 years, and never bonded with it.
i prefer a very old school approach, though i've augmented that with a palmer pdi-09, which i'm growing fonder and fonder of, with every recording i make with it.

batsbrew


the reason i posted (4) examples, with details, was to illustrate by actual audio, the differences between capturing sounds using a Pod XT, microphone, Palmer PDI-09, and a blending of techniques.

i can clearly hear the differences between all 4 examples.

i don't know if that means i have golden ears, tin ears, or if it just means because i knew what i used it tilts my opinioin, and therefore can't objectively be used.....!

heheh

hey, i'm trying to help here.

but no one.......... even responded to my post.
ultimately, it does not matter what someone uses, if they get the result they want.

my story is simple:
i tried the artificial amp sounds for 2 years, and never bonded with it.
i prefer a very old school approach, though i've augmented that with a palmer pdi-09, which i'm growing fonder and fonder of, with every recording i make with it.

Batsbrew - I'm going down the list. I have your stuff on my list for my next listening session. :)

Rain

spacey


I've seen this topic here more times than I can remember through the years.

I can understand one seeking sounds and equipment to please them.
What is hard to understand is;

I don't know of a single guitarist for instance that can't stand using...let's say, Line 6 but
can't tell you that Line 6 is what somebody else used in a recording.

I believe if the members in this thread that posted audio examples wouldn't have mentioned what they used....nobody would know. Somebody may take a lucky guess or known because they've mentioned it many times that they only use a certain set-up.

Of course it is very easy to prove me wrong. Somebody step and say- "I don't care what you use. Record something and let me hear it and I will tell you exactly what you used."
And then do it.
Until then...it's just a matter of what floats your boat. The market says there are a lot of guitarist using a lot of different equipment and sounding very good at it.

So....where's the one with the golden ears?...please speak up.

That was somehow implied I think. I mentioned that, from my perspective, it seems like any option could be used w/ relatively satisfying results. Especially in the case of Guitar Rig. I can't get it to work for me, but I KNOW it works for some. 


If you read carefully, this isn't about which is better - I'm more in trying to find a common ground, not trying to find which package is better. How people get amp sim of choice to work for them, what they add to the signal chain, how they make up for its shortcomings.

As for audio exemples, for some reason, I prefer to stick with: what works for you and let's hear it in context. What do you think is ok or great in the context of a mix? Otherwise, pretty much all amp sim has it's own series of audio demos which can sound as good or as bad as anyone wants them to. If someone puts up something that seems to be what any one of us here is after, then we can try to understand why and how it works. 

I guess I read better than you as I didn't mention what was "better". In fact I made it point to support why it's
not about "better" but it's about the person using it.
 
I also read good well enough to know your post was about software.
 
Bye.
 
 

Starise


 I am surprised that you haven't gotten tons of responses to this.....
 
 Guitarists can literally go on and on and on and on and on and on about the "tone". No two of them have the same opinion either. For some of them, I don't think they have really found the holy grail yet but they will know it when they hear it lol.

 I am a realtively new guitarist coming from keyboard roots.......ok lets not mince words here.....I'm a newbee. I love the instrument and I kick myself every day that I picked up a keyboard intead of a guitar first. When I started guitar, I was hooked and ended up with a few real amps, some of them tube. GR4 and Amplitube,the TC Electronic Nova system(this is total analog effects with digital control and a Line 6  HD 500, oh and one of those Boss acoustic simulator thingys,the biggest one they make....Doggonit if a person can't conjure something from that its not the hardware or the software!

 If only the guys back in the 50's had known how complex their simple little tube amps and simple chunks of wood with pick ups on them would become!

 Recording guitar,especially electric guitar is probably worthy of a 500 page book that only 50% of guitarists will agree with and the other 50% will say the book was too expensive. It is an art no doubt. I think rock guitar presents more challanges than recording other styles. There are so many variables when recording guitar in a home studio.

 I can't listen to the track posted yet but I'll give it a listen later. I think that one of the things driving guitarists to look for the holy grail is individuality. No two of them want to sound the same but they all want to sound good.

That's a thing which fascinates me. If you take a look around and check all the resources available in terms of tutorials, videos and all, it seems like 80% is about drums. Seems a bit disproportionate if you consider that many home studio folks are using sampled drums which are already pretty much shaped to fit in the mix. Not that I don't obsess with drum sounds, but... To me, by definition, they're hits, occupying a much more "finite" position in a mix than, say, on overdriven guitar part with sustaining notes and all. That doesn't mean you don't have to work to get them to sound great but, you usually have much more clues to begin with. I don't know. Maybe it is actually because guitars can be so many different things and happen at so many different places in a mix that there isn't much to be said beside using a low cut filter.


Maybe it's because I'm a guitar player, and like a vocalist with his voice, I can be pretty difficult and I have more specific/less objective expectations. Yet, as I said before, I don't really think I fall in the "Eric Johnson" category. 

timidi

Tim, I agree, it is ALWAYS about the song. However, with the array of tone choices in something like POD X3, tone is insipration, and just about every song I write with guitar was propelled by the feeling I got with a certain tone, though that doesn't meant the original tone is what I end up using in the mix. In fact, my most promblematic mixes are when I recorded directly out of POD X3, without bothereing to make a dry signal take.

Yea, I think I recanted everything I said.....
I want a POD, a new computer, sound card, a wooden pick, and lots of moving blankets. (and a tele).
then I'll have MY sound...
oh well..

Tim, in all honesty, I'm listening to one of your smooth jazz tracks right now, and I think there is absolutely nothing that stands out as unfit for the song - tasteful playing, pretty sweet tone. It all works fine.

I have a very similar experience to Batsbrew

actually, IK, it sounds like you had exactly the OPPOSITE experience i had!!

IK Obi


I have a very similar experience to Batsbrew. I started with a Pod XT as my first big jump into tone from a small peavy practice amp. From there the POD XT was amazing, this mainly was for live gigging and I preferred the 1 guitar case & my Pod XT for gigs. At home I had a few amps that I loved to record through but after awhile just kept using the POD to record. I tried AmpliTube a few years after having the POD and I was completely happy and not looking. I just started a small site about recording and was doing reviews. So I did a review for AmpliTube Fender and was blown away! I remember sitting down and going through presets after I first installed it. I had cleared the whole evening to try it out and write about it. I spent 3 hours going through the 65 Twin presets and I couldn't stop playing. Now all I use for my personal stuff I use AmpliTube, I still own a few amps but now they are more for clients that I record than my own use. I prefer recording and producing myself and I like to work quickly so as soon as I get an idea I can play it with it sounding awesome quickly. No tubes to warm up, switching sounds very fast, a whole hell of a lot cheaper than the hardware versions go for. Plus I've had tons of gear, you need tons of space and don't forget maintenance. Those were my main reasons, but also I'm relatively young at 23. Internet, computers and digital modeling were always at my finger tips. I own real tube amps and yes they sound awesome but I don't hear a big difference. Yes you can feel it, turn up your monitors if you want to feel it. (Links weren't added to not appear to spammy. Recently I started working for IK, my tone decisions were made WAY before I was employed by them)

Obi, as the official OP, I beg you to feel free to add any link you may want. It's all part of the discussion. ;)

I absolutely like AT for tracking. Recently, I came up with a tone I thought I was rather happy with, so I bounced it and start rough mixing, mainly setting levels and low pass filtering to hear it in context. Didn't seem bad, but for some reason, as a whole the mix didn't click.

So I went back - bypassed the cab in AT and routed to 2 busses, one with a cab impulse and one with a room impulse. I didn't agonize over this - simply picked impulses that were similar to what I had done in AT in terms of choice of cab and mic placement, and adjusted Cabinet and Room's output to similar ratios as those I had used in AT. To my hears, the result was better. That's just me. Maybe you and 90% of the folks out there would actually prefer the original AT cab sim track.

I know some people get away with it only with GR or Amplitube. Some others have a fairly elaborate signal chain. Which is why I like to hear and discuss about that stuff. Some folks may be getting a sound they like using X, but I personally wouldn't be able to put up with it. Some other might totally nail the type of tone I like using something completely different from what I use. The whole idea is really to exchange ideas and maybe open some new perspectives.  

Great thread... I'm a bit of a soft-amp junky. After using most of the amp sims out there, I generally gravitate towards amplitube 3... but recently it's been S-Gear. S-Gear is the best sounding/feeling sim I've used, they did a great job... I recommend trying it if you haven't. I'm hoping the new Kemper stuff has the ability to record dry signal as well as wet. That thing looks v. cool. Cheers!

jamesg1213


Before Sonar I used a Boss Br-8 for recording. When I moved to a DAW I kept the Boss as a pre-amp/guitar modeller, and stuck with it ever since. I love the Boss COSM effects, and the tones just seem thick and creamy to me, particularly with my Les Paul. I've never been one to record dry and re-amp later, I always get the tone I want going in. If it ends up not working, I re-track with a new tone.

My rockier stuff probably shows that side of things, any of the 4 tracks here;

http://www.soundclick.com...ault.cfm?bandID=756694

Thanks James!


I had a friend who was totally fond of his Boss unit and COSM - great guitar player he was (well, still is I assume, I just haven't seen him in ages). Anyway, it seems to work pretty well for you too. 


It's hard to describe tones with words, but, anyway, in my case, I'm after something a bit more "dysfunctional" in terms of tones - as you might have guessed by the references I mentioned somewhere above. I guess I should call it ugly tones, plain and simple. lol Danny probably hit the nail when he said 12AX7... But I'm so stubborn that I keep on trying other things. 


Anyway, thanks for chiming in and sharing some of your work. :)

IK Obi


I own real tube amps and yes they sound awesome but I don't hear a big difference. Yes you can feel it, turn up your monitors if you want to feel it. (Links weren't added to not appear to spammy. Recently I started working for IK, my tone decisions were made WAY before I was employed by them)

I think to hear the differences Obi, you have to know what the differences are. I can give you a few to think about and maybe you can report back to your guys and have them crack the 12ax7 tube thing that no one has yet to crack. LOL!
 
1. The first thing to listen for is there is a certain saturation in a tube rig when you kick the drive up a little bit. I'm not talking extreme gain here, I'm talking just enough dirt to where it saturates. Not to be confused with distortion...there's a difference as you know, between saturation and distortion. This just hasn't been achieved right in sims. Sure, in clean sounds and *some* dirty sounds, it's going to be hard to tell. And most people are not going to be able to tell a difference...this we know. However, there's something about a tube rig with a 12ax7 front end that just has that little extra something that tranny rigs just don't have.
 
2. When you do get a tube amp at mild gain to sound just right, part of that mild gain is saturation gain from the tubes themselves. It's an almost "bad" guitar sound due to the break-up. Listen to the Crooked Vultures...you'll hear what I mean. That's saturated distortion with lots of drive. It almost sounds bad, yet it's good because of the characteristics of the tubes.
 
3. Warmth....when you saturate the sound just right, there is a certain warmth and tonal characteristic that tranny sounds just don't get. I don't mean warm as far as rolling off your treble...I mean in the voicing itself. Tubes just have this "less abrasive" thing to them...or, they can be really abrasive depending on how they saturate. A tranny rig can actually sound warmer than a tube rig, but the characteristics of the tube rig that make it sound a bit harsh, can only be achieved by tubes. For example, most of the British tones to me have a harshness about them...but you can still tell in 5 seconds that it's a tube amp. They just saturate and distort in a different way.
 
4. Extreme gain...this is something (for me anyway) that is extremely important. Being a rock/metal guitarist, certain techniques I use just sound better with a 12ax7 front end. Especially pinch harmonics. I absolutely HATE the sound of pinches using any type of transistor rig whether it be modeled or an actual amp. That sound to me is like nails on a chalk-board no matter who does it. I just hate it with a passion. Now when you do that with a tube front end, it no longer sounds like an annoying squeal...it sounds like a scream or a "chirp" that hits you in the throat. Here's an example of what I'm talking about in a solo section from one of my songs. Listen to how these pinch harmonics sound. Nothing tranny can get this tone no matter how hard you try. I work for ABG as a developer....and though we may not be at the level you guys are, we have quite a few genius amp guys working for us. We've come close, but this tone here...hasn't been possible unless we use tubes.
 
http://dl.dropbox.com/u/4909348/Wild%26DangerousLead.mp3
 
The pinch harm isn't one dimensional like it is on a modeled amp or tranny amp. This thing explodes out at you like it's choking you to death. Sure, this isn't the number one reason to use tubes over modeling...lol...but it's a pet peeve of mine. Not to mention the nice, natural compression you get from tubes. So to certain people in certain situations....as well as the style they play, tubes make a HUGE difference. :)
 
-Danny