Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support

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jim y
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/02 11:20:19 (permalink)
Only yesterday I was reading a review of an Edirol interface that stated that ADM was the ONLY way to get a flexible monitor mix out of it due to lack of the appropriate controls either on the box or in the driver control (so in this case, ADM can do more than the hardware). This is touted as "Soft Control". Given the Cakewalk/Roland tie in, you'd think they'd want to fully support each other products.
Personally, I don't want ADM, just saying'.

Jim
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dontletmedrown
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/02 18:48:38 (permalink)
bumpity bump for Cake
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/03 15:02:58 (permalink)
So, I asked tech support via email, and the basically said no, not now and not anytime soon and then they pushed the blame onto the hardware manufactures for not following the protocol correctly and making it to hard to make work 100% of the time.

How are they handling monitoring with the v-studio? I doubt they have a separate mixer app for input monitoring. So if your using the v-studio and your half way through the project 40+ tracks with plugins and you gotta set your buffers higher, then you wanna record another track? What? Freeze every thing record then unfreeze? Seems like a waste of time? They must have something like ADM but specific for the v-studio?
post edited by VigilantSound - 2009/02/03 16:53:44
#63
dontletmedrown
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/03 19:05:59 (permalink)
I want to keep this one bumped to the top.

I'd love to hear from the product manager about why they are giving up on this. I have to wonder if manufacturers are not following protocall, how is it that the other DAWs can make it happen?

Does Cake not have the skills to get it done? Are you telling me that my only other option is to SWITCH DAWs? That's great since I just forked out cash for the Sonar 8 upgrade.

Can someone from Cake please elaborate on this? Inquiring minds want to know.
#64
pjl
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/03 20:31:19 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: dontletmedrown


ORIGINAL: Noel
...Additionally most if not all HW vendors have their own console applications that implement their own custom direct monitoring mapping that is superior than any host based ASIO DM implementation could rival...



I guess Noel never used the Lynx mixer. It doesn't let you PAN.


I've been thinking about this and it makes me think that a lot of Lynx users would be very unhappy with ADM, partlicularly users of cards like the L22, which I use, since the card can only mix 4 stereo pairs (as opposed to 10 with the AES16).

The architecture of the L22 is such that each output channel can mix upto 4 inputs. That means that you could monitor SONAR stereo playback and 6 other mono instruments as they recorded. However, 3 instruments would have to be monitored through the left channel and 3 through the right. If you want to be able to pan the instruments then you have to assign them to both the left and right channels. The problem with this is that you can now only monitor 3 instruments because of the cards limitation. You can't stack all six instruments on both left and right.

Thus, if ADM were implemented each mono source would have to be routed to both sides of a stereo pair and so the number of sources that could be mixed would drop from 6 to 3 for the L22 and from 18 to 9 for the AES16. This is, for me, too great a limitation - although it may suit many AES16 users.

This is, in fact, my biggest disappointment with the Lynx cards. The sound is fantastic but their mixing capability is very limited compared to the competition and that limitation is in the hardware (confirmed to me by Lynx Support). ADM cannot overcome the mixer limitations.

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#65
dontletmedrown
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/03 21:07:40 (permalink)
Actually, in a post at the Lynx forums, I was complaining (go figure) about only being able to direct monitor 9 mono inputs on each channel. Paul says they are working on updating the mixer so it can monitor 16 channels on each output, so apparently it is a software limitation. I realy don't care who does it first, I just want to be able to direct monitor all 16 channels through my mains. A think that's a pretty reasonable request for a 16-channel interface.

Quote from Paul @ Lynx:

"DLMD,
I hear you loud and clear. The way you work is not at all unusual, and dificult to pull of with the current hardware monitoring arrangement. We do intend to expand the number of sources with the AES16e, and also make some changes to the Mixer interface (which I take it you are not a big fan of :). Not a help to you right here right now, but something that will be coming up in the reasonably near future...

However, I would add that no matter how good the Direct Monitoring features of an audio interface are, you stil need ADM to do tape type monitoring without latency :)"

Paul Erlandson
Lynx Studio Technology
Support
#66
VigilantSound
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/03 21:55:36 (permalink)
pjl, Actually ADM would improve your situation because you could monitor any input through any bus(stereo Pair) and be able to pan each input as desired. In SONAR off course.
post edited by VigilantSound - 2009/02/03 22:03:28
#67
pjl
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/03 22:01:44 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: dontletmedrown

Actually, in a post at the Lynx forums, I was complaining (go figure) about only being able to direct monitor 9 mono inputs on each channel. Paul says they are working on updating the mixer so it can monitor 16 channels on each output, so apparently it is a software limitation. I realy don't care who does it first, I just want to be able to direct monitor all 16 channels through my mains. A think that's a pretty reasonable request for a 16-channel interface.

Quote from Paul @ Lynx:

"DLMD,
I hear you loud and clear. The way you work is not at all unusual, and dificult to pull of with the current hardware monitoring arrangement. We do intend to expand the number of sources with the AES16e, and also make some changes to the Mixer interface (which I take it you are not a big fan of :). Not a help to you right here right now, but something that will be coming up in the reasonably near future...

However, I would add that no matter how good the Direct Monitoring features of an audio interface are, you stil need ADM to do tape type monitoring without latency :)"

Paul Erlandson
Lynx Studio Technology
Support



It has to be Lynx that does it because the limitation on number of sources is in the cards firmware. There is no way to use more sources via ADM until the firmware is modified.

When I bought my Lynx card the mixer was limited to 4 inputs and after much complaint they promised to increase it to 10. However, when they did that it was only for the AES16 card and so I asked when it will be implemented for the L22. The response I got from Lynx was never because the card was pretty much maxed out. Pretty disappointing when you consider that the L2 series of cards are all as expensive, or considerably more expensive, than the AES16.

What this means is that even with ADM in SONAR I will never be able to monitor more than 3 sources with my L22 despite the fact that it has 16 channels of input.

If I'd known about that limitation I wouldn't have bought it. I'd probably have gone for the AES16.



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#68
pjl
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/03 22:05:08 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: VigilantSound

pjl, Actually ADM would improve your situation because you could monitor any input through any bus(stereo Pair) and be able to pan each input as desired. In SONAR off course.


Yes but I'd be cut from monitoring 6 inputs to only 3 so I'd lose half of my capacity.

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#69
VigilantSound
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/03 22:06:02 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: dontletmedrown

Are you telling me that my only other option is to SWITCH DAWs? That's great since I just forked out cash for the Sonar 8 upgrade.





I just bought a new PC over a mac just to stay with SONAR, I am really interested to know if DP has ADM?
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VigilantSound
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/04 01:40:09 (permalink)
Yes but I'd be cut from monitoring 6 inputs to only 3 so I'd lose half of my capacity.




I dont mean to be a bother, But i dont see how you loose inputs? theL22 only has 2 inputs? and you can use 6 of the 2? I'm assuming you have the expansion option?

Even so, Create a tracks for all inputs lets say 1-10 (cause you have the adat expansion) set bus 1 outputs to lynx 1-2 enable ADM click on input monitor for each track and you can monitor all 10 channels, and pan as desired, Right? If you need second mix for performers create a send to bus 2 on each track set outputs to L22 3-4. If you need a third mix repeat. Sonar has unlimeted sends so you can have as many mixs as you have output pairs.

What you describe seems like a limitation of the lynks mixers, not ADM in SONAR. How many instances you can monitor through the lynx mixer should be irrelevant because your not using the lynx mixer you would be using ADM through SONAR.

Again im not trying to bust your chops just better understand
post edited by VigilantSound - 2009/02/04 01:54:44

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#71
Jeffw5555
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/04 08:03:00 (permalink)
I am afraid I don't quite understand; am I missing something? It sounds like it's a Lynx problem, not a Sonar problem. Why don't you Lynx guys dump your hardware and get a card that has native direct monitoring support thru the mixer?
#72
deswind
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/04 09:23:56 (permalink)
I have an Lynx AES16 and Aurora setup. I monitor through the Lynx mixer to an external mixing board. I do not see any problem. I set the output and panning parameters in Sonar. It goes through the Lynx mixer. When I record, I listen through up to 16 channels on the Lynx mixer and record new tracks. No big deal.

So what's the problem?
#73
dontletmedrown
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/04 09:59:26 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Jeffw5555

I am afraid I don't quite understand; am I missing something? It sounds like it's a Lynx problem, not a Sonar problem. Why don't you Lynx guys dump your hardware and get a card that has native direct monitoring support thru the mixer?


Yes Jeff,

The point is, we want to be able to do it THROUGH SONAR and NOT use the lynx mixer. Understand?
#74
HMusikk
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/04 10:02:27 (permalink)

The point is, we want to be able to do it THROUGH SONAR and NOT use the lynx mixer. Understand?

And this will be the same for all other sound cards also...not only Lynx...

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#75
dontletmedrown
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/04 10:04:09 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: deswind

I have an Lynx AES16 and Aurora setup. I monitor through the Lynx mixer to an external mixing board. I do not see any problem. I set the output and panning parameters in Sonar. It goes through the Lynx mixer. When I record, I listen through up to 16 channels on the Lynx mixer and record new tracks. No big deal.

So what's the problem?


Well that's just peachy for you. Of course you don't see a problem since you're using a mixer. Not everyone has an external mixer. IMHO, all mixers under $20k are piss-- not something I want connected to my i/o chain. Anything over that exceeds my budget. Have you guys even read the thread? We know the workarounds, but we want to be able to do it IN SONAR the same way we can with the (very limited) Lynx mixer. Of course it's not a problem for people that don't need ASIO DM.
#76
D K
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/04 10:22:46 (permalink)
IMHO, all mixers under $20k are piss-- not something I want connected to my i/o chain.


Dave, I agree with the need for ADM as it would be a good option to use with my RME card but the above statement is a bit absurd don't you think?

I'll name two just to illustrate - TOFT ATB or any number of Orion DR consoles that can be found on the used market

All well under 20K and definitely viable for anything but the highest grade of I/O and while Lynx converters are far better then what I have - They ain't Weiss or Lavry

A little reality is in order here me thinks

carry on.....

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#77
Duojet
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/04 10:33:51 (permalink)
ASIO direct monitor would always be pre effects, correct? You would not hear any of the effects in the effects bin...or am I wrong?

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#78
Jose7822
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/04 10:42:46 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: Duojet

ASIO direct monitor would always be pre effects, correct? You would not hear any of the effects in the effects bin...or am I wrong?



Right. It's exactly the same as not using Input Echo to monitor effects in Sonar except you get 0 (or close to it) latency. That's basically what ADM is.
#79
VigilantSound
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/04 11:03:59 (permalink)
I'll name two just to illustrate - TOFT ATB or any number of Orion DR consoles that can be found on the used market

All well under 20K and definitely viable for anything but the highest grade of I/O and while Lynx converters are far better then what I have - They ain't Weiss or Lavry

A little reality is in order here me thinks


I think there is another thread called crappy mixers for under 20k, This one is about ADM!!
post edited by VigilantSound - 2009/02/04 11:14:18
#80
dontletmedrown
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/04 13:13:16 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Jeffw5555

Why don't you Lynx guys dump your hardware...?


This is the most hilarious suggestion. Dump my $3k investment (which sounds absolutely amazing, btw) because my $500 software can't follow the ASIO spec? I'd just as soon use Reaper. You can pry my Aroura from my cold dead hands.


ORIGINAL: D K

Dave, I agree with the need for ADM as it would be a good option to use with my RME card but the above statement is a bit absurd don't you think?



I'm just not a fan of the Toft gear. Never heard Orion stuff. Having had the priveledge of working on an SSL for 2 years, I can honestly say I will stay ITB forever until I can afford an SSL or Neve console (which might be never). For me, a mixer is really not a necessity, more of a toy.

Honestly, I'm glad to hear that Lynx is working on upgrading their mixer. I can get by in the meantime, but it would be very convenient to be able to just use Sonar and nothing else.
post edited by dontletmedrown - 2009/02/04 13:20:11
#81
pjl
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/04 19:31:09 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: VigilantSound

Yes but I'd be cut from monitoring 6 inputs to only 3 so I'd lose half of my capacity.




I dont mean to be a bother, But i dont see how you loose inputs? theL22 only has 2 inputs? and you can use 6 of the 2? I'm assuming you have the expansion option?

Even so, Create a tracks for all inputs lets say 1-10 (cause you have the adat expansion) set bus 1 outputs to lynx 1-2 enable ADM click on input monitor for each track and you can monitor all 10 channels, and pan as desired, Right? If you need second mix for performers create a send to bus 2 on each track set outputs to L22 3-4. If you need a third mix repeat. Sonar has unlimeted sends so you can have as many mixs as you have output pairs.

What you describe seems like a limitation of the lynks mixers, not ADM in SONAR. How many instances you can monitor through the lynx mixer should be irrelevant because your not using the lynx mixer you would be using ADM through SONAR.

Again im not trying to bust your chops just better understand


Firstly, yes I do have the ADAT option so I have more than 2 inputs.

The problem is that the 4 input limit is not a limitation of the Lynx Mixer but the Lynx firmware and, according to David at Lynx, it can't be increased. ADM would still have that limitation and more. If I use the Lynx Mixer to monitor I can assign the stereo playback from SONAR plus 6 mono channels. These 6 channels can't be panned but must be assigned to only the left or right output. Now if I use ADM it is not possible to send an input to just the left or right channel as the ADM spec. does not support routing to mono outs, just stereo. So, if I route a mono input it uses one of the 4 slots in both the left and right channels and so after 3 inputs are added the card is maxed out. Once again, this is a limitation of the card itself - ADM cannot overcome it, unfortunately.


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#82
Jeffw5555
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/04 21:03:41 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: dontletmedrown

ORIGINAL: Jeffw5555

Why don't you Lynx guys dump your hardware...?


This is the most hilarious suggestion. Dump my $3k investment (which sounds absolutely amazing, btw) because my $500 software can't follow the ASIO spec? I'd just as soon use Reaper. You can pry my Aroura from my cold dead hands.


ORIGINAL: D K

Dave, I agree with the need for ADM as it would be a good option to use with my RME card but the above statement is a bit absurd don't you think?



I'm just not a fan of the Toft gear. Never heard Orion stuff. Having had the priveledge of working on an SSL for 2 years, I can honestly say I will stay ITB forever until I can afford an SSL or Neve console (which might be never). For me, a mixer is really not a necessity, more of a toy.

Honestly, I'm glad to hear that Lynx is working on upgrading their mixer. I can get by in the meantime, but it would be very convenient to be able to just use Sonar and nothing else.

This is the most hilarious suggestion. Dump my $3k investment (which sounds absolutely amazing, btw) because my $500 software can't follow the ASIO spec? I'd just as soon use Reaper. You can pry my Aroura from my cold dead hands.


Well, I'm sorry to hear you invested so much in the sound card, but it is mainly Lynx users that are complaining, right? Even cheapie cards have software mixers that can do it, (my cheap-azz Delta 66 can do direct monitoring, for instance) so why can't the brilliant makers of your $3k card do it? If they can't (or refuse to) do it, why are you insisting that Sonar do it, when they will have some of the same issues or limitations of that hardware?

#83
Jeffw5555
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/04 21:17:37 (permalink)

ORIGINAL: pjl

A quote from Noel:

I'll let you in on a secret. In early SONAR 8 we actually implemented DM. ASIO DM is one of the poorest areas of the ASIO specification and very incomplete. We ran into so many vague areas with the ASIO spec and differences in manufacturers implementations that we ultimately ended up scrapping it. Additionally most if not all HW vendors have their own console applications that implement their own custom direct monitoring mapping that is superior than any host based ASIO DM implementation could rival. We decided that we'd let this one go for now.



I went back and re-read the thread. This is the most telling quote, and it is clear to me after reading this that Cakewalk will not likely implement ADM. It is not "simple" as several of you have inferred. If they implement it, it might work for your card, and not someone elses, or vice-versa. Cake has to implement features that will work across the board; not piecemeal.

I still say that you need to go to Lynx and have them clean up their act, or switch to another card that gives you proper direct monitoring......
#84
dontletmedrown
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/04 21:27:46 (permalink)
ORIGINAL: Jeffw5555

I still say that you need to go to Lynx and have them clean up their act, or switch to another card that gives you proper direct monitoring......


Maybe you are not reading all of the posts. Check this part again:


ORIGINAL: dontletmedrown

Honestly, I'm glad to hear that Lynx is working on upgrading their mixer. I can get by in the meantime, but it would be very convenient to be able to just use Sonar and nothing else


Again, the other DAWs seem to have no problem pulling this off.
post edited by dontletmedrown - 2009/02/04 21:32:48
#85
HMusikk
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/05 02:44:49 (permalink)
I still say that you need to go to Lynx and have them clean up their act, or switch to another card that gives you proper direct monitoring......

Maybe you have to re-read the thread once more. We can do direct monitoring with our lynx system, the only thing is that it’s not (the mixer) user friendly when you track a lot of tracks… this would be much more elegant if we could to direct monitoring within SONAR…just like they do it in Cubase, and “all other” applications…
post edited by HMusikk - 2009/02/05 02:49:26

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#86
VigilantSound
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/06 02:40:24 (permalink)
but it is mainly Lynx users that are complaining, right?


Actually its not just lynx users, I have a Motu interface and i would really like ADM, as you can probably tell by my posts!

this would be much more elegant if we could to direct monitoring within SONAR…just like they do it in Cubase, and “all other” applications…


Yes ALL other applications! Its absurd that SONAR is the only one who refuses to do this. And I really dont care if its ADM or input monitoring or input echo, I just want it to work! You should not need two apps for one job!
#87
VigilantSound
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/02/08 18:19:03 (permalink)
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InfiNeat
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/04/23 03:11:33 (permalink)
I don't know if that's useful to anyone else in their setup, but I thought I'd share the solution I found for myself.

I have an RME Multiface which allows direct input-output connections.

The only acoustic instrument I record is my pan flute. I compose all my accompaniement with soft synths. When I feel it's ready enough I then proceed to record the flute. I just listen to the playback and record at the same time in Sonar.

I can safely go down to 6ms ASIO latency without having to freeze any synths most of the time. I think 6 ms is quite good as far as timing so I have no problem on that level. My problem is that: 1) I need to hear the reverb while recording; and 2) the pan flute is quite loud. Even though I have some good closed headphones (AKG 271) I can still hear both the direct sound and the delayed version while recording which really sounds bad (comb filtering I guess) and is very distracting.

Since I am not interested in buying an external reverb unit just for this, here is what I've recently tried: I use the direct monitoring option on the RME mixer for the dry sound. However, in Sonar I mute the flute track but can still hear the reverb by sending the signal pre-fader with input monitoring turned on. I don't care that the reverb is delayed 6ms... This is working great at the moment and my ears are happy. I had to change my signal flow in Sonar as opposed to my previous way of working, but that's really minor compared to the benefit of hearing myself clearly while tracking.

This setup actually allow me to increase the latency if needed. I'm still happy with it at 12 ms. I haven't tried higher but I don't think I would need it.

ADM is interesting, but if I need to purchase an external reverb, then I prefer my way :)


#89
Jon Con
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RE: Hi Cake. will 8.3 include ASIO Direct Monitoring support 2009/04/23 04:50:33 (permalink)
just wanted to chime in and say I'd love to see support for ADM at some point in the future :)

Jon Con
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