Helpful ReplyHow good is the pro channel?

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acoustigod
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2011/01/09 00:41:06 (permalink)

How good is the pro channel?

Hi everyone,

How good is the pro channel? Can it replace something like the SSL plugin series by waves, or would you still be better off using that?

Any info on how the pro-channel stacks up to other plugins would be great.

Thanks!
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HumbleNoise
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/09 00:45:20 (permalink)
There's a recent thread or two that AB's Pro Channel against some big name hardware. Do a search.

Humbly Yours

Larry

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#2
acoustigod
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/09 01:01:33 (permalink)
I could really only find 1 post out the first page of search results, and there was only one person that said they had trouble distinguishing the pro channel from the waves ssl plugins. No other comments or feedback. That's hardly a discussion.

Of course, I found a lot of threads of people asking the same question as me, but the responses were exactly the same as your response - "go look elsewhere" ;)
post edited by acoustigod - 2011/01/09 01:02:41
#3
nighthadfallen
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/09 01:04:22 (permalink)
It makes butter taste like margarine, or vice-versa, I forget.  Either way, it makes something taste like something else.
#4
HumbleNoise
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/09 01:08:51 (permalink)
Here you go acoustigod.

Wasn't trying to be a dick. Just thought you'd put in a little more effort. It was after all on the second page.

http://forum.cakewalk.com/tm.aspx?m=2189495

http://rhythminmind.net/1313/?p=2388

Humbly Yours

Larry

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#5
Psychobillybob
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/09 01:23:58 (permalink)
/rant on "As someone who uses UAD dsp's nd plenty of real analogue hardware I can tell you the gap between soft and hard has narrowed quite a bit in the last few years, I do not believe it will ever completely close, there are uses for both soft and hardware treatments, an analogue comp doesn't have "look-ahead" like a soft, but on the other hand the ease of saturating a Vox track with a tranx in a hardware is something I don't think software can do yet..."/rant off...

So...I use the UAD and Waves stuff a LOT, and also have some real 1176's (Mohog Units go to "gearsux" and search) and plenty of other pre's and EQ's to do OTB stuff with...

The Pro Channel is really, really, really close...so close I wouldn't bother spending the money on Waves or UAD if I had had this before I spent all that money...hardware...well its a bit of an addiction and I'm in therapy for it so I would have spent the money anyway (actually built a lot of my gear)...

Not won over on the EQ yet, but I haven't really spent that much time with it, its hard to beat the Waves SSL stuff here, I will still go to that particular tool for quite a while...

The tube thing...????...maybe my hardware addiction is showing thru but I don't really find a use for "tube saturation" in the digital domain, maybe that is because of the way I get my stuff into the box (plenty of really top shelf pre's and tubes if I want), so again I haven't really played with this very much just enough to know I have better ways in house to do this without using code to create random odd number frequencies and call it "tube"...now if your shop doesn't have tube pre's or tape, or even decent tranx' pre's to give it that old world sheen, by all means its a worthy tool...

It does kind of beg the question though what is the baseline for a "tube" effect? 12AX7's? A starved plate design like just about every current <$1,000.00 tube pre being sold today? I doubt very seriously the Bakers went out and bought an ADL 600 or rented time on a REDD 47 to emulate, so I kinda wonder what the point of reference for the code is going to be, the compressors are standard industry units (even though the names have been changed to protect the innocent) the EQ's are sorta standard, at minimum they are standard mastering options...but the tube thing...who picked what tubes and why?

But overall...its a great tool, very functional and pretty too...I found it satisfied my upgrade impulse spend and I'm happy I did.

I'm using SOnar Platinium on a 6 core Lynx Audio machine and a ton of vintage pre-amps/eq's/comps I build for fun and sometimes money, REDD.47/API/Neve I also use the UAD stuff, and also use a Macbook Logic 9 through Apogee...
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Middleman
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/09 01:25:52 (permalink)
The ProChannel is as good as the following plug ins.

UAD 1176
UAD 4k channel strip compressor.
UAD 4k buss compressor.

Not better, but just as useful. I can't speak to the Waves but many consider the UAD better than the wave on similar tasks. Hope that helps but remember every audio track is different and sometimes an inexpensive plug in is just the right application.
 
Just read Psychobillybob's response and I agree completely.
post edited by Middleman - 2011/01/09 01:28:06

Gear: A bunch of stuff.
#7
Psychobillybob
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/09 01:45:24 (permalink)
Middleman


The ProChannel is as good as the following plug ins.

UAD 1176
UAD 4k channel strip compressor.
UAD 4k buss compressor.

Not better, but just as useful. I can't speak to the Waves but many consider the UAD better than the wave on similar tasks. Hope that helps but remember every audio track is different and sometimes an inexpensive plug in is just the right application.
 
Just read Psychobillybob's response and I agree completely.


And I agree with Middleman, although I never use the Waves 4k stuff...but the Mohog 1176 units beat out the real 1176's we had in the shop and they are no longer with us, we use Mohog exclusively in the real hardware domain, its a bit hard for me to curb my desire to go out of box for an 1176, but I can see it happening, I have not tried out the external insert yet, its on my to do list...anyone have issues with this yet?

I'm using SOnar Platinium on a 6 core Lynx Audio machine and a ton of vintage pre-amps/eq's/comps I build for fun and sometimes money, REDD.47/API/Neve I also use the UAD stuff, and also use a Macbook Logic 9 through Apogee...
#8
M@ B
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/09 01:59:25 (permalink)
nice insights psychobill.
thanks

#9
Psychobillybob
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/09 02:15:49 (permalink)
Just for giggles the guy who owns Mohog Audio is going to redo a track or two of Incomplete Neighbors last album using ONLY the Pro Channel just to see how it stacks up...(he was in the band at one time and a relative of mine)...anyway I'm sure there will be some comments although he's really busy so it might be a while.

I will say this, the Pro Channel advantage that I did not tick off on the plus sheet is the cpu usage vs. the other stuff...Waves is a bit of a cpu hog, you need a really decent amount of ram/processor to apply this stuff on very many tracks, UAD is limited only by how much money you gave them for DSP chips (we have not spent much here in the last few years still a fan though just not a priority), so I usually stick UAD on bus sends and limit my overhead there...

I'm not feeling the hate here for the cpu usage on the channel stuff....that alone makes it edge a little bit in my book especially if you are tracking a large project with 30+ tracks, this is a tool that will be very useful in this setting...

something to think about...

I'm using SOnar Platinium on a 6 core Lynx Audio machine and a ton of vintage pre-amps/eq's/comps I build for fun and sometimes money, REDD.47/API/Neve I also use the UAD stuff, and also use a Macbook Logic 9 through Apogee...
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guitarmikeh
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/09 02:37:39 (permalink)
the real answer is;
its a good as you can make it sound. that's all. it may be modeled after a certain type of compressor or eq or whatever. these things are all intangible. quality of sound ? who's to say?

<pist I smoked a little tonight shhhh>

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Psychobillybob
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/09 03:05:34 (permalink)
Just a short reply about my own question on external insert, got it working and up in like 5 minutes once I remembered Lynx's archaic software nomenclature...seems to work quite well which was a bug in the 8 release that they mostly ironed out...

This is a HUGE feature for people like me who gravitate to the outboard stuff...good to see it works.

I'm using SOnar Platinium on a 6 core Lynx Audio machine and a ton of vintage pre-amps/eq's/comps I build for fun and sometimes money, REDD.47/API/Neve I also use the UAD stuff, and also use a Macbook Logic 9 through Apogee...
#12
acoustigod
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/09 03:20:02 (permalink)
Thanks for all the feedback on this!

It sounds like the prochannel is fairly good all-around, especially for the price.

I haven't found the ssl stuff to be a cpu hog myself, but my machine is pretty good. Still, what appeals to me actually is having it all laid out on the same screen as seen in the pictures rather than in separate plug-in windows on top of the console in earlier sonar versions. This is actually a pain. If it sounds almost as good or can be made to sound equally as good, then that's pretty cool imo.

I have no experience with the uad plugins, so I can't really comment on those.

One thing I didn't like about the ssl eq's was that you couldn't give them a q higher than 3.5, which made me go elsewhere for ultra fine precision. Sometimes a Q of 7 or 12 is all that is needed, so I'd often use multiple EQ's on a track ;)
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Freddie H
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/09 06:33:46 (permalink)
acoustigod


Hi everyone,

How good is the pro channel? Can it replace something like the SSL plugin series by waves, or would you still be better off using that?

Any info on how the pro-channel stacks up to other plugins would be great.

Thanks!

Its great! High end TOP quality!
 
 
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post edited by Freddie H - 2011/01/09 06:35:14


-Highly developed spirits often encounter resistance from mediocre minds. -It really matters!
#14
cheez
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/09 07:07:52 (permalink)
I find the Prochannel EQ very close to Waves SSL4000 G-channel and Vintage series (Neve). I was demoing both the Waves SSL4000 and Vintage series with the intend of buying one of them - and I'm glad I can now save quite a bit of money because of the Prochannel. I did an A/B comparison between the G-channel and the Prochannel with the same EQ settings - very close indeed. As for the tube saturation, I use it for acoustic instruments (from strings to sax). I still prefer my SPL TwinTube on guitars. 
post edited by cheez - 2011/01/09 07:09:57
#15
bladetragic
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/09 10:22:59 (permalink)
Pro Channel is a very useful tool.  After using it for a while now, it's kind of like a swiss army knife that's good for a lot of small tasks. 

The Gloss EQ is definitely an upgrade from the Sonitus EQ (IMO) as far as the sound is concerned.   But I do think the interface needs a bit more refining.  Using it can be a bit "clunky" sometimes.  The Sonitus interface, as well as most other quality EQ plugs, is much more user friendly and quicker to get from A to B.  They really should look into creating a larger scale, more detail oriented interface that you can bring up when needed similar to the way we could w/ the inline Sonitus EQ.  If they do this then I really can't see myself reaching for other eq's too often.  But as of now when I need to get more detailed and do it quickly, I often find myself reaching for something like Pro-Q or Equality simply due to quicker and easier workflow.  Which is ironic, considering that "better workflow" has been touted as the main driving force behind X1.  Go figure.

The comps have their place.  I'm still trying to get used to them and feel them out to see where they shine the most, but I've found them useful for certain tasks.  It's been hit and miss with me thus far.  But I guess that's with any plug, or hardware for that matter, as the source material usually determines which one will work best.  After some comparisons, I still find myself preferring other options like The Glue or Bombardier for buss compression for drums or on the master though.

The tube saturation is strictly on a case-by-case basis for me.  Every once in a while I'll find that it adds something that I like.  But not something I use very often.

Also, as of right now, PC is a bit buggy w/ some strange behavior.  When you change eq modes a lot of the time the graph won't reflect the change.  The comp/eq/sat power buttons appearing to be off when they're actually on.   Stuff like that.  Hopefully they sort this out w/ the next patch though.
post edited by bladetragic - 2011/01/09 10:27:57
#16
Freddie H
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/10 05:45:45 (permalink)
If I compare to anything it would be Nomad factory plugins, WaveArts or URS plugins.


Waves & AVID? ... that plugins aren't good. Its just hype. 


-Highly developed spirits often encounter resistance from mediocre minds. -It really matters!
#17
mikespitzer
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/10 06:21:11 (permalink)
Just a brief comment -

I agree with the commenter above that the difference between Hardware and Software Plug-ins is narrowing in most applications.

The one thing Software and Digital Emulation still had not come close enough yet to be convincing is TUBE emulations.

Simple example -- guitar players out there will tell you this also ----  though they are useable and can create interesting sounds, none of the guitar amp emulators out there feel, respond or sound like an authentic tube amp on 10 being miked in a room.

Amplitube, POD, Vandal, etc...etc..etc..

There is still something not right about them.

It is kind of like comparing a 35mm print to a Polaroid.

The digital emulations seem to capture the basic image, but lack the complexity and depth of tones, etc..

Kind of like the way most Analog Tape plug-ins are good at emulating the bass head bumps, EQ roll offs below 40 and above 16K, the broad mild tape saturation "warming" between 300-400 HZ, etc..

But they usually lack the Wow and Flutter factor which makes tape sound more "alive". 
The W&F causes random subtle shifting in the music that help blend tracks better and gives it more depth.
Digital is almost too perfect, direct, and sterile in that regard.

But honestly, all of this is technical nitpicking.

Heck, the average non-musician listener can't tell a drum machine from a live drummer and we who do recording argue over which is better ------BFD-Vs-Supreme.

Even most of us could probably not listen to a finished album and comment ------ Oh yes, I can hear he used the UAD 1176 plug-in on that song and not the actual hardware unit.

On the other hand, you can often listen to a commercial or song and recognize the POD or Amplitube sound for guitars.

So for my 2 cents worth , to summarize ---

I think the difference in signal processing software and hardware as narrowed in most cases (like those above said too)

But in some areas, there is still a weakness in the digital imitation of some instruments to play and create the musical tones that comprise your song.

Makes sense if you think about it .....

It is one thing to use a signal processor to tweak a recorded sound.

It is something altogether to artificially create and imitate that recorded sound.

We may not be able to hear the difference between a UAD Plug In -OR- actual 1176 slightly processing a guitar tone.

But we can hear if that guitar tone itself was not authentic.

It takes a whole lot more computer "smarts" to perform the latter magic.

The recorded sound IS THE SOUND.
The tweaking with EQ, compressor, may only be 5% of the sound.

 
#18
guitarmikeh
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/10 06:41:10 (permalink)

akes sense if you think about it ..... It is one thing to use a signal processor to tweak a recorded sound. It is something altogether to artificially create and imitate that recorded sound. We may not be able to hear the difference between a UAD Plug In -OR- actual 1176 slightly processing a guitar tone. But we can hear if that guitar tone itself was not authentic.


out of pure fun. shall we test this theory out?

how about we start a thread testing "digital or audio". and whether people and differentiate between the two.

post edited by guitarmikeh - 2011/01/10 06:47:29

I harbor no ill will towards any man.
#19
dede
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/10 06:49:34 (permalink)
i agree w/Psychobillybob and mike about this, I use a bunch of analog processors, avalon, focusrite and old telefunken pres, adn been using waves (rennaisance, master, gold, etc) for ages, and just tryed this prochannel for the first time on a flute take, wonderfully recorded with hi end mics and pres in a great studio, with no compression, no eq, nothing at all.

Just spent 5 minutes tweaking/discovring prochanell and the results amazed me. I can see a huge potential here after spending some weeks on ti. In my opinion it can replace most hardware compressors.

I agree, tube distortion and tape simulation is still an analog thing, but as far as compression / limiting goes (fast attack, look ahead), and EQ also:  I've been using plugins mostly, and prochanel seems to be a great tool , and for the money ? , my favourite channel strip hands down..

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#20
dede
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/10 08:17:38 (permalink)
out of pure fun. shall we test this theory out? how about we start a thread testing "digital or audio". and whether people and differentiate between the two.


well, out for fun, you can have extraordinary results with those "blind fold tests". Once I was having problem with a band, they recorded a drum track that sounded dull, and flat, and cold, etc, blame it to the fact that it was recorded with a digital Roland desk (and it's preamps) and we were trying ANYTHING in terms of compression and tape emulator to make it sound "live" and "warm" and "old school" etc etc. We tried every plug in, every outboard compressor. nobody was happy and they wanted me to try a tube compressor, I didnt had any at the time. I bet that they wont hear the difference betwen my plugins, my solid state compressor  and a tube compressor.
I went to another studio and came back next day with 4 stereo mixes of those drums:
1-digital mix through waves L2
2-analogue through avalon 747 (tube)
3-analogue  through focusrite compounder
4-analogue : out of the board to a tascam cassette deck (CrO2 old casette tape ) cranked up a little, back to sonar.

everybody prefered the casette version! and they were sure that was the tube compressor they asked for. all-digital mix was 2nd in the list. So no, people (musicians included)  can't usually hear the difference betwen analog and digital compressors, etc. Let's face it, in the end all our 24bit/96 little tracks goes throght  speakers (jurasic technology, paper cones moving!) and different speaker's quality (and rooms, etc) colours the sound much more (to most listener's ears) than any preamp and fx you put to a single track...

but lets stick to X1 here, shall we?



"If it souds good, its good"




D.D.
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#21
mikespitzer
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/10 09:04:13 (permalink)
Good comment Dede

I only heard Pro Channel used at my friends (he upgraded to X1, I have not yet because of the problems I saw him having).

But it sounded good.

And you bring up another good point ....... we sometimes over obsess about great sound quality ......... and we should, since we are trying to produce the best product possible .................

But how much of that care is lost when the music we produce ends up getting coded into 128-MP3 and played thru an I-Pod on those god-awful crappy ear-buds everybody uses these days.

I wonder how few people today ever listen to CDs on a nice stereo anymore ?

On the other hand, this may help explain why we can use some of the recording tricks we do these days and get away with it -----------  the general public does not have a sensitive enough ear.
#22
dede
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/10 09:16:04 (permalink)
I agree completely Mike, but still, while some tech  things like "the-difference-between-LA2-and-1176" gets lost in translation (from 24bit/96 to 128/mp3, from Genelec Monitors to Delta Airlines era buds), some other things pass through and never get lost: in tune singing, groovy playing, sensitive musicianship, good melodies, etc
In the end I look for hi quality handy tools that dont **** up the audio and allow me to get good results without spending hours reading pdf manuals or patching/tweaking/Right-Clicking. And that's what I liked about PROCHANEL, It delivers : simple, handy available and sounds really good.
Cheers

dd

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#23
Zuma
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/10 09:53:24 (permalink)
guitarmikeh


<pist I smoked a little tonight shhhh>
 
 
 
 
 


You did? Why so stingy? Pass it over here, damn it!

http://zumajunction.bandcamp.com/

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#24
stratman70
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/10 10:29:15 (permalink)
mikespitzer


Just a brief comment -

I agree with the commenter above that the difference between Hardware and Software Plug-ins is narrowing in most applications.

The one thing Software and Digital Emulation still had not come close enough yet to be convincing is TUBE emulations.

Simple example -- guitar players out there will tell you this also ----  though they are useable and can create interesting sounds, none of the guitar amp emulators out there feel, respond or sound like an authentic tube amp on 10 being miked in a room.

Amplitube, POD, Vandal, etc...etc..etc..

There is still something not right about them.

It is kind of like comparing a 35mm print to a Polaroid.

The digital emulations seem to capture the basic image, but lack the complexity and depth of tones, etc..

Kind of like the way most Analog Tape plug-ins are good at emulating the bass head bumps, EQ roll offs below 40 and above 16K, the broad mild tape saturation "warming" between 300-400 HZ, etc..

But they usually lack the Wow and Flutter factor which makes tape sound more "alive". 
The W&F causes random subtle shifting in the music that help blend tracks better and gives it more depth.
Digital is almost too perfect, direct, and sterile in that regard.

But honestly, all of this is technical nitpicking.

Heck, the average non-musician listener can't tell a drum machine from a live drummer and we who do recording argue over which is better ------BFD-Vs-Supreme.

Even most of us could probably not listen to a finished album and comment ------ Oh yes, I can hear he used the UAD 1176 plug-in on that song and not the actual hardware unit.

On the other hand, you can often listen to a commercial or song and recognize the POD or Amplitube sound for guitars.

So for my 2 cents worth , to summarize ---

I think the difference in signal processing software and hardware as narrowed in most cases (like those above said too)

But in some areas, there is still a weakness in the digital imitation of some instruments to play and create the musical tones that comprise your song.

Makes sense if you think about it .....

It is one thing to use a signal processor to tweak a recorded sound.

It is something altogether to artificially create and imitate that recorded sound.

We may not be able to hear the difference between a UAD Plug In -OR- actual 1176 slightly processing a guitar tone.

But we can hear if that guitar tone itself was not authentic.

It takes a whole lot more computer "smarts" to perform the latter magic.

The recorded sound IS THE SOUND.
The tweaking with EQ, compressor, may only be 5% of the sound.



With all due respect Mike-The guitar part is not quite true anymore-And I do not post this to challenge your statement-Just to mention the best musical hardware purchase I have  made in the last 20 years. 
    I used fender and musicman amps for 25+ years on the road. I no longer do that of course but I have had for the last 2 years an AxeFX Ultra. The gap between tube amp feel, etc has been narrowed immensly-in my case (for me) their is no gap.
 
I understand that most folks have not heard of this thing-but they will. Most guitar players have. It is pricey though. But if something happened to mine I wouild buy another tomorrow.
Sorry, didn't mean to hijack the thread-I apologize for that.

 
 
#25
LANEY
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/10 10:30:24 (permalink)
Pro Channel saved me lots of money, Because I was going to buy the Waves SSL.  Very glad I waited and am very happy with the Pro Channel sound.

It sounds good!



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#26
Katie_Katie
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/10 10:47:14 (permalink)
I was a little reluctant to *depend* on Pro Channel at first - mainly due to my familiarity with Sonitus.  But, after a while it grows on you due to convince, low CPU load and, most importantly, sound quality.   When I run a track through Pro Channel and then out a M-Audio interface, then to my Grado cans, the sound is very nice.  The graphical interface deserves a hit - it could be better.  But, the sound quality is quite good and I find myself using Pro Channel for the majority of my per-track sound shaping.   I have other tools for the master bus (i.e. Ozone), so I keep the Pro Channel off.  But that is my preference.   
 
As one poster stated.  The detail, or lack thereof, will matter little to Bob and Jane earbud users with mp3s.   Mostly it is the tune, beat, lyrics that matter.   So, Pro-Channel is more than enough to please the bud folks.  For the critical listener (are they a dying breed?), the Pro-Channel, I think, stands tall enough to do the job quite well.  I am kinda surprised actually - I did not expect it to match the Madison Ave. hype.

Katherine  

#27
Rain
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/10 10:55:27 (permalink)
Katie_Katie
Mostly it is the tune, beat, lyrics that matter.   

That stuff still matters? I thought it was mostly fashion and fame nowadays...

TCB - Tea, Cats, Books...
#28
mikespitzer
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/10 10:58:31 (permalink)
Stratman70

Yes, I am familiar with that device.
And you are correct, it is about as good as it gets these days.
It is the closest.

In fact, I should clarify something.

When something like the AxeFX Ultra is run thru a power amp & speaker combination, it is virtually identical.

It is the DIRECT TO DAW aspect of recording these digital simulators that still seems lacking.

It leads me to believe the programmers may have come very close to modeling the AMPLIFIER part of the sound chain, but they have not yet been able to accurately reproduce the complexities of the SPEAKER / MIC/ ROOM combination.

Somehow all the digital amp simulators (when run direct with their speaker emulations) still tend to exhibit the following two weaknesses ...

1) There is a "Whompy" sound to the low end.
2) There is a "Fizz" in the upper mids to lower treble that even EQ can't seem to remove.

It is better than it used to be, but not quite right.

But if you use an AxeFX Ultra thru a speaker then mic the speaker, you are correct -- it seems to be 90% on the mark
#29
Freddie H
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Re:How good is the pro channel? 2011/01/10 11:05:05 (permalink)
mikespitzer



The recorded sound IS THE SOUND.
The tweaking with EQ, compressor, may only be 5% of the sound.




Absolutely agree! So F.. ing true. If you have bad orignal sound or vocals that sounds crap, no eq or comp in the world will help you...


-Highly developed spirits often encounter resistance from mediocre minds. -It really matters!
#30
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