Helpful ReplyI still don't like Take Lanes...

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icontakt
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/11/30 23:02:45 (permalink)
Keni
 
All the new attempts at guessing choices (Smart Grid and Comping Mode come to mind) might be good for some people, but not all and for many of us get in the way... Luckily we can chose to not use them as has usually been the approach of The Bakers, but not so with Lanes...

 
Exactly. If it wasn't possible to disable Smart Grid, I'd be mad.
 
Keni
 
Not to derail the thread from the OP's matters.... I apologize if I did, but I see all of the matters presented as of the many bugs still apparent in Lanes without nitpicking the details...

 
No need to apologize. I can understand your points very well.

Tak T.
 
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/11/30 23:05:11 (permalink)
For X3E I would like to see this sorted (takelanes made optimal and not half baked), a total review about that long term MIDI implementation issue (whether there is an issue or not), and the ability to stop auto detecting midi channels (when MIDI device get switched off and on Sonar seems to love changing all the tracks MIDI channels settings for me, but that's another post). Then we can start talking about X4.
 
Anyway digression sorry - Take lanes....

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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/11/30 23:20:14 (permalink)
Jlien X,
 
Alex was definitely playing on the pun for Base Version vs Bass Version which is pronounced the same way. That's why he teased about a vocal version. Alex didn't mistake it... he was being funny.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/11/30 23:29:45 (permalink)
Yup me and Nigel joined at birth ;)

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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/12/01 00:00:12 (permalink)
gswitz
Jlien X,
 
Alex was definitely playing on the pun for Base Version vs Bass Version which is pronounced the same way. That's why he teased about a vocal version. Alex didn't mistake it... he was being funny.


 
I thought about the possibility a little. Thanks for clarifying it. \/

Tak T.
 
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/12/01 07:43:43 (permalink)
CakeAlexS
Yup me and Nigel joined at birth ;)

JlienX,
Alex is referring to a character in the movie Spinal Tap
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Is_Spinal_Tap
I believe his forum image may also be Nigel from Spinal Tap.
 
If you haven't seen this movie, it's an amusing thing to watch.
 
I use the comping features in Cakewalk and I don't have a problem with them (despite the goofy behavior you have pointed out). I'm able to record audio and midi and to quickly build composite tracks from those takes.
 
I'm not trying to say your complaints aren't valid or anything -- more that even as true, none of it bothers me. For me the worst thing described in this thread is that in cases where you have create-new-lanes-on-overlap disabled the order of the clips when split into lanes isn't predictable. For me, this isn't much of a hindrance.
 
Best,

G

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I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/12/01 08:48:14 (permalink)
gswitz
CakeAlexS
Yup me and Nigel joined at birth ;)

JlienX,
Alex is referring to a character in the movie Spinal Tap
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/This_Is_Spinal_Tap
I believe his forum image may also be Nigel from Spinal Tap.
 
If you haven't seen this movie, it's an amusing thing to watch.
 
I use the comping features in Cakewalk and I don't have a problem with them (despite the goofy behavior you have pointed out). I'm able to record audio and midi and to quickly build composite tracks from those takes.
 
I'm not trying to say your complaints aren't valid or anything -- more that even as true, none of it bothers me. For me the worst thing described in this thread is that in cases where you have create-new-lanes-on-overlap disabled the order of the clips when split into lanes isn't predictable. For me, this isn't much of a hindrance.
 
Best,

G


 
My posts aren't actually complaints and that's why I didn't ask for immediate improvements, but I'm sorry they sounded like complaints. Since the new audio comping feature seems to be appreciated by many users (I mean, I rarely do audio comping so I can't know how good it is in X3), I don't think Take Lanes need major improvements until X4 (but I do wish CW could make muted MIDI events disappear from the main track when the lanes are collapsed). Since we all a have different workflow, it's natural that we have different opinions on the same feature, but if the majority of users are happy with it, then it means it's a success. Personally, Take Lanes are somewhat inconvenient for my workflow. For example, imagine you have two great ideas for a synth lead part, and you decide you want to go with the first idea but want to keep the second idea somewhere. Where would you keep it? The best place to put it for me would be in another lane, rather than another track that I have to create and hide with a screenset. And, if you keep the second idea in the lane of the same track, you'd expect to see just two lanes when you click the Expand/Collapse Take Lanes button. But, the chances are you see several lanes, each partly filled with clips, that were automatically created during the coarse of recording many (overlapping) takes in the main track. And, as my screenshots proved, the clips go into different lanes at random when you bounce them down. That's why I've decided not to expand the lanes, but as I said, I want to use lanes as a place to keep alternative ideas, so I need to expand them.
 
As for the movie, thanks for explaining. I know it's a very famous one, and I'm ashamed to say I've never watched it. I'll look for it and watch it when I have time. Thanks. 
 
post edited by Jlien X - 2013/12/02 08:05:54

Tak T.
 
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/12/01 08:59:52 (permalink)
I haven't actually tried, but wouldn't it make sense to use the "flatten comp" option to consolidate the idea before recording a new one? Alternatively, how about using track folders for different ideas played by the same synth?
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/12/01 17:09:51 (permalink)
So here is my test case, please tell me where am I going wrong? - Thanks!
 
STEPS
Start up Sonar project
Store takes in single track is on.
Create new lanes on overlap is on.
Loop record a midi synth such as Z3Ta +2 so you end up with 3 take lanes. Loop several times (say four times) play various notes in random sequences.
Expand take lanes
Mute all take lanes by hitting each mute button for each track
Now playback.
Unmute T3 and observe it plays back, now mute it.
Unmute T2 and observe it plays back, now mute it.
Unmute T2 and observe it plays back, now mute it.
Unmute T1 and observe it plays back, now mute it.
 
EXPECTED
 
You can hear a take lane as you unmute it.
 
ACTUAL

Some take lanes you won't hear anything in some sections if you press the mute button to unmute. On further inspection you will observe that the clips that you can't hear have actually been overwritten with other clips and the region muted. Why?
 
ALSO
I've followed the same procedure with "store take lanes as separate tracks" setting. This displays all take lanes as separate without clips being recorded on top of each other, however some clips will not be heard when following the same process above (i.e. unmuting by clicking the mute button).
post edited by CakeAlexS - 2013/12/01 19:39:46

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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/12/02 08:41:21 (permalink)
CakeAlexS
So here is my test case, please tell me where am I going wrong? - Thanks!

 
I don't know if this is the result you commented in the ACTUAL section, but... 
 

 
I simply recorded three takes with loop enabled and never stopped recording until it reached the end of the third cycle.
I usually don't enable loop so I don't know if this is something to do with my loop setting or if I'm just having a new midi related issue.
Will investigate more...tomorrow...or the day after...
 
(Edit: I must have forgotten to switch from Comping mode to Sound on Sound mode. I ran this test a few days later and it worked fine, except that I could only hear some of the notes I recorded in previous takes while I was recording.)
post edited by Jlien X - 2013/12/06 21:04:49

Tak T.
 
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/12/02 08:55:53 (permalink)
Sanderxpander
I haven't actually tried, but wouldn't it make sense to use the "flatten comp" option to consolidate the idea before recording a new one? Alternatively, how about using track folders for different ideas played by the same synth?

 
I'm sorry but what does this "flatten comp" do? Also, track folders don't really help because even if you collapse the track(s) in the folder, the folder itself uses valuable space on your screen (especially when you create several folders for ideas on different instruments -- and I use a laptop with no external monitor). The good thing about lanes is that you can show/hide them easily, while you have to use the Track Manager, or screensets, to show a particular folder.   

Tak T.
 
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/12/02 09:09:34 (permalink)
Given that with audio, everything works really well its pretty obvious to me that since midi behaves differently (and incorrectly/badly) that midi take lane functionality is not implemented correctly.
 
its clearly CWBRN time and this thread reminds me that i have failed to report my share of midi take lane issues.
 
 
 
 

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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/12/02 10:36:31 (permalink)
#39 logged: CWBRN-22107

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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/12/02 11:07:22 (permalink)
#39? isn't it #22107? are you coompiling something useful?
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/12/02 11:58:46 (permalink)
I still track in X1, and mix in X3, because working with track layers, which I've grown accustomed to for years and am very quick with, is just much easier for me.  My clients are always impressed with the ease at which I can record them.  I tried my hand with take lanes but they make the job tougher IME.  So X1 is my tracking software for the time being.  I completely skipped X2 because editing takes was useless.  I bought it, but it collected virtual dust.
 
I would really like to see a webinar or a thorough video of cakewalk tracking a live drummer and editing his/her takes.  I can't see or understand how take lanes makes this process easier.  Drummers are not perfect and often slip-editing is needed and a lot of moving and nudging is required.  Take lanes makes this much harder in my experience.  The main issue is that the crossfade-functionality is very hit-or-miss and simply slows me way down.
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/12/02 14:54:26 (permalink)
Lets remember that even layers went through a number of fixes and changes and was still in need of more... so I expect nothing less from Lanes other than we went three steps back to implement them and are now playing catch up and overtake (if it ever gets there for me)...
 
I've got a reasonable handle on the speed comping, but it still (at this point in time) is creating more issues for me than it is worth using much of the time...
 
I understand the need to know the new expected work methodology, but it still has to be able to accomplish the work and it doesn't always or sometimes at best gets the job done (for the result desired) with a lot of work around and extra labor to get that final result...
 
Layers had their problem, and learning Lanes makes them easier to live with, but still at the cost of much extra work. We are not all busy in the kind of work situations where such a feature set makes sense to use...
 
So while I hope to see pleasant improvement, this is a big reason I've been so disenchanted with issues such as these.... I was far closer to being satisfied before than I am now and perhaps foolishly continue to hang on hoping the next few updates will somehow fix things before I'm incapable of using it anyway...
 
I know their' (Bakers) hearts and minds are in the right place and the decisions are hard to make in the best of scenarios... But this one really threw the wrench at me while fixing some of the other issues that were important as well...
 
So I reluctantly have been keeping myself more toned down about these issues and hoping for the best....
 
Maybe this will get better as the rest of my life continues to fall apart....
 
Keni
 

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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/12/03 00:16:41 (permalink)
Keni
 
Maybe this will get better as the rest of my life continues to fall apart....
 



I for one sincerely appreciate your presence here and hope you find a way to keep your pieces together.  I also anxiously await the day you're happy with lanes.
 
 
 

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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/12/06 09:54:13 (permalink)
Just had a session last night that highlighted one of the common issues with takes.  Had background vocalists come punch in discrete phrases in 10 different sections of the song.  Did around 5 takes of each to get phrasing right etc. before moving on to the next phrase.  So I now have 50 take lanes to work with for what is effectively 5 actual takes broken into 10 sections.  I would love the ability to either 1) consolidate takes so that non-overlapping sections are put onto the same lane, or 2) the ability to tell Sonar what take number I want to start with so I can always start at take 1 and it adds subsequent takes to #2, #3 etc.  As it currently behaves, I must manually select each section and drag clips around so I end up with a manageable number of takes to work with.  
 
Another issue I posted elsewhere is the need to be able to export the audio from takes.  I collaborate with other engineers using other DAWs.  I often want to send them wave files from three of the best takes of different tracks for them to work with.  The only way to export the audio is to manually select/solo take 1, export the audio from the track, then go back and select/solo take 2 and repeat.  This is very time consuming and prone to user error when doing this dozens of times per song for 15 songs.  "Export audio" allows to export by full mix, bus, or track.  CW needs to add "take lanes" to the list of options.
 
Lot's of good ideas in this thread.  I hope we all submit feature requests so that these issues get resolved.  Takes are very close to being a great tool, but there are enough quirks and bugs that I still find them to be a real hassle much of the time.
 
I wonder if CW would consider hosting a working session with folks like ourselves to study work flow in a real world setting and see the issues first hand, and to help brainstorm ideal behaviors.  I for one would gladly fly to Boston some weekend to take part.
 
 
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/12/06 10:34:34 (permalink)
neirbod
 I wonder if CW would consider hosting a working session with folks like ourselves to study work flow in a real world setting and see the issues first hand, and to help brainstorm ideal behaviors.  I for one would gladly fly to Boston some weekend to take part.
 

 
You'd hope they'd already done this...

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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/12/06 12:24:51 (permalink)
I'd settle for a webcast tracking a group of live musicians!  I want to see how Cakewalk uses Take Lanes with multi-miced instruments that are not 100% to the grid.
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/12/09 18:24:43 (permalink)
Thanks to Jlien for cataloging these bugs in lanes.  I have seen most of these--and others.  Lanes are extremely buggy at this point.  Recording multiple takes and comping is a very basic function in recording.  Fixing the lanes should get top priority.
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/12/09 18:32:33 (permalink)
Saxon1066
Thanks to Jlien for cataloging these bugs in lanes.  I have seen most of these--and others.  Lanes are extremely buggy at this point.  Recording multiple takes and comping is a very basic function in recording.  Fixing the lanes should get top priority.


+1 (hope to see this in X3D or X3E).

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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/12/09 19:28:14 (permalink)
Paul P
Keni Maybe this will get better as the rest of my life continues to fall apart.... 


I for one sincerely appreciate your presence here and hope you find a way to keep your pieces together.  I also anxiously await the day you're happy with lanes.   


Thanks Paul...

I hope that happens someday as they seem reluctant to offer both lanes and layers... Personally, I'd be very happy to have layers with all it's bugs for these new tools are interesting ideas and I imagine useful to some users, but certainly not for my needs...

Keni

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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/12/09 20:16:54 (permalink)
> Maybe this will get better as the rest of my life continues to fall apart.... 
 
That is a genius quote!! I may have to nick it.

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@48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38.

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brian brock
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/12/10 00:09:14 (permalink)
in practice, comping mode seems much too fiddly for any but the very few cases for which it was conceived.  Having my recordings split up before I've even looked at them or taken any action is completely unwelcome.
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/12/10 05:08:37 (permalink)
CakeAlexS
So here is my test case, please tell me where am I going wrong? - Thanks!
 
EXPECTED
 
You can hear a take lane as you unmute it.
 
ACTUAL

Some take lanes you won't hear anything in some sections if you press the mute button to unmute. On further inspection you will observe that the clips that you can't hear have actually been overwritten with other clips and the region muted. Why?
 
ALSO
I've followed the same procedure with "store take lanes as separate tracks" setting. This displays all take lanes as separate without clips being recorded on top of each other, however some clips will not be heard when following the same process above (i.e. unmuting by clicking the mute button).



This is why I find take lanes completely unusable.  They are so buggy, it drives me insane.  Also, if I try to copy/paste a clip from a different track into a new take lane in another track, the clip appears in a random lane and overwrites the clip that was already there.  Nuts!  For now, I have to track in X1, do my comping there, and use X3 to mix.  (I do like the ProChannel improvements.)  It's not just that take lanes are very cumbersome to use with many takes.  The lanes just don't work right.  If Cake never fixes these buggy lanes, I will stay with X1 forever or jump ship.  Really, take lanes have been a revolting development for me.
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/12/10 08:26:40 (permalink)
William as a workaround in X3 May I suggest using track templates for speedy overdubs? You can group the tracks in folders and do the editing within it.

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Keni
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/12/10 10:23:13 (permalink)
brian brock
in practice, comping mode seems much too fiddly for any but the very few cases for which it was conceived.  Having my recordings split up before I've even looked at them or taken any action is completely unwelcome.


CakeAlexS
> Maybe this will get better as the rest of my life continues to fall apart.... 
 
That is a genius quote!! I may have to nick it.





Thanks CakeAlexS
 
I hope you get good use for it.... But also hoping your life doesn't fall apart as mine is....!
 
Keni
 

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Keni
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/12/10 10:26:41 (permalink)
brian brock
in practice, comping mode seems much too fiddly for any but the very few cases for which it was conceived.  Having my recordings split up before I've even looked at them or taken any action is completely unwelcome.




Hi Brian...
 
Yes, I couldn't agree more... In my opinion (?), this should have been ADDED instead of replacing Layers... Layers is/was a perfect method for many people, but I'm hoping the Bakers find some ingenious way to make Lanes more practical and useful to those of us suffering the loss.... Regardless of bugs, Lanes just doesn't work as well for me as Layers did!
 
I guess they needed some way to derail a lot of other complaints, so they surprised us with this loss/exchange to keep us focused??? ;-)
 
Keni
 

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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes... 2013/12/10 10:33:50 (permalink)
I'd really like layers back.  +1000000.
I was super efficient with them.  Layers has set me back a lot and forced me to use X2 as a virtual dust-collector and X3 as a mixing-only app.  X1 is the way to go for me.  Interesting to see others as well.
 
I hope Cake chimes in here.  Do a video of comping drums, LIVE drums, for drum months.
#60
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