Anderton
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/16 22:45:32
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elijahlucian
I'm pretty sure roland didn't take all the tech support tickets with them when they left, meaning, these issues should be resolved BEFORE making a new version... that's how it's supposed to be done... at least, when paying customers are in the equation....
If those "paying customers in the equation" are using X2 Producer, they're being offered an upgrade price for X3 Producer (which is a better program) for the price of Addictive Drums all by itself. And they get the $99 version of Melodyne, all the Nomad Factory Blue Tubes plug-ins, VST3 support, ARA integration, Skylight improvements, Gobbler integration, Pro Channel EQ improvements, a tape emulation module, speed comping, and bunch of other features. Oh, and four free updates (so far) with additional video capabilities coming next. If they stick with X3 for a year, it costs them $12.50 a month. I think few people would consider that kind of deal as showing anything but gratitude for existing customers. Can you imagine if musicians were subject to this kind of thinking? "I think your first album has a bunch of mistakes in it, especially some of the mixes but also some parts are out of time, so I think you should redo the parts and remix the tracks so the album is up to today's standards before releasing another album. Oh, and you should replace my first copy for free." For better or for worse, that's just not the way the world works. Well, on second thought maybe Trent Reznor would remix stuff and give it away for free...but he's an exception 
post edited by Anderton - 2013/12/16 23:03:04
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brian brock
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/17 00:11:43
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In my experience, the problem with take lanes and comping mode is not as much whether they work or not, but that they seem to be designed for very specific (and yes, quite common and useful) usage scenarios. Since I often want to do things which are outside of common scenarios, the changes are often frustrating for me - the previous implementation was much more versatile, and involved less guessing at the way I am being expected to work.
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Splat 
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/17 11:11:31
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Only issue I see resolved in X3D is:
> Resolved an issue where the order of Take Lanes would behave abnormally when switching Screensets
But the proof of the pudding is in the eating, please report your findings here.
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blacksheep
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/17 13:16:10
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my fav feature was deleate unused lanes. beat that thing to death, since i play 10 takes like a noob, just cus i can
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rontarrant
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/18 09:04:29
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blacksheep
my fav feature was deleate unused lanes. beat that thing to death, since i play 10 takes like a noob, just cus i can
I also record my rehearsals...! 'Cause I can.
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Splat
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/18 14:16:48
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> Resolved an issue where the order of Take Lanes would behave abnormally when switching Screensets
Please let me know of any specific changes in X3D that you think may be fixed.
I would love Cake to come in and chirp in at this point after looking at this thread. Right onto other things...
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/21 12:39:02
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Jlien X
Anyway, what I'd really like to know is if there's a way to record all takes (including overlapped clips) in just one lane WITHOUT enabling the Expand/Collapse Take Lanes button. Can X3 do this?
When I record MIDI, I want to use lanes as a place to keep alternative ideas (that's why I don't want muted clips in additional lanes to appear in the main track when the lanes are collapsed).
Just responding to this one point. The answer is no. A lane as it name implies cannot have overlapping data on it. It is like a lane on a highway - you can't have two cars at the same place in the lane without causing a crash :) The whole point of lanes is to provide a way to "explode" a view of overlapping clips on a single track to multiple lanes, and provide a way of editing and managing this data through the comping tools and workflow. You cannot use a single lane as a repository for multiple clips that overlap - its not designed for that. If you haven't already watched the comping video's I highly recommend checking them out so you can understand some use cases for the comping workflow and tools.
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Blades
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/21 17:47:29
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Where you guys lost me a bit on this was why you REPLACED layers with lanes instead of just offering the Lanes as a way to do the comping stuff and leaving the layers in place for people to be able to have their multiple takes in overlapping stacks (like I like to do with vocals).
Seems like it would have been just as easy to leave the layers there in the code and just ADD the lanes to the options.
I'm sure there was some reason for this direction, but from a feature-set and usability point of view, it seems like you would inevitably alienate a notable percentage of your client base by doing this, especially for as many complaints as you got with the implementation in X2.
It seems like the marketing and development teams would have gotten together for X3 and said something like "why don't we bring the layers back for layering purpose and fix the lanes function for take comping and that way we can satisfy everyone." Instead, what's happened is those who liked the layers feel like they've been taken away (X1 and previous users) and those who liked the idea of the take lanes feel like it is still somewhat half-baked, specifically that it's still somewhat buggy for all but the circumstances it was specifically developed for.
Just a few thoughts. Is there some technical reason why layers didn't get left in/brought back?
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Anderton
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/21 18:00:56
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Blades
Where you guys lost me a bit on this was why you REPLACED layers with lanes instead of just offering the Lanes as a way to do the comping stuff and leaving the layers in place for people to be able to have their multiple takes in overlapping stacks (like I like to do with vocals)...[snip]...what's happened is those who liked the layers feel like they've been taken away (X1 and previous users) and those who liked the idea of the take lanes feel like it is still somewhat half-baked, specifically that it's still somewhat buggy for all but the circumstances it was specifically developed for.
Just a few thoughts. Is there some technical reason why layers didn't get left in/brought back?
To summarize something I've said in other threads: For me, speed comping is a fantastic feature. I think the problem people have is that with Layers, you could sorta comp, and sorta edit. With Take Layers, you can comp really, really well...edit, not so much. These are Take Lanes and not Edit Lanes. I don't know why people don't just use tracks for how they used to use Layers. My understanding is that Layers were supposed to do what they're doing now, but didn't. So people didn't get a chance to use layers as intended, and instead used them as "auxiliary tracks." But I really don't see anything layers offered that tracks in track envelopes don't offer, except for the ability to delete unused layers and collapse the remaining ones into a single track. Yet with tracks in a track folder, you can still bounce into a single track and any tracks that weren't muted will be in the bounced track, so I'm just not sure what you lose by using tracks instead of layers. From my subjective standpoint, take Lanes enable wicked fast comping for the kind of comping most, if not the vast majority, of people do while tracks are ideal for editing. As to whether there could be an option for both, I don't do coding. However, my gut tells me that lanes and layers are very fundamental areas of the program, so messing with them could be opening a Pandora's box.
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brian brock
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/21 18:58:11
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a few reasons why editing in layers is often preferable to editing in tracks have been posted here and there. Here are some things I have noted...
It can be useful if you want to have many clips with different audio all feeding the same effects, for example, without using extra CPU on multiple tracks. Yes, you can use a bus, but layers made this kind of routing simpler, not more complicated.
Background harmonies can be placed on one track, given one effect treatment, and then collapsed. It's convenient.
Track Folders don't show a waveform when collapsed.
Track folders are not nestable, but tracks with layers can be put in a folder.
By implementing layers as a part of the edit filter, you avoid the pandora's box.
It might be possible to make track folders more like the layers function. You could theoretically have a special track folder which acts like a bus, with it's own effect bin and all contained tracks routed through it. That could be cool.
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brian brock
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/21 19:03:31
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let me present my hammer metaphor here, as well.
The new system is like a nail gun - it can do one task very well. Pounding nails into wood is the core function of a hammer, and the nail gun takes that function and masters it. The old system was like a hammer - pretty good at the one task, but a hammer can also be used as a weapon, as a bashing device, as a wedge, a chisel, for firewood, as a decorative wall hanging, as a toy, etc.
The very fact that people used Layers for all sorts of unforeseen purposes is the reason why it shouldn't have been removed. Whether all those purposes can be accomplished in another way is immaterial - this one tool was helping many people do many things quickly and intuitively.
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Anderton
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/21 20:15:52
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brian brock
let me present my hammer metaphor here, as well.
The new system is like a nail gun - it can do one task very well. Pounding nails into wood is the core function of a hammer, and the nail gun takes that function and masters it. The old system was like a hammer - pretty good at the one task, but a hammer can also be used as a weapon, as a bashing device, as a wedge, a chisel, for firewood, as a decorative wall hanging, as a toy, etc.
The very fact that people used Layers for all sorts of unforeseen purposes is the reason why it shouldn't have been removed. Whether all those purposes can be accomplished in another way is immaterial - this one tool was helping many people do many things quickly and intuitively.
Yes, those are all good points. Unfortunately I don't have enough coding chops to know how easy it would be to implement parallel "within a track" structures. If it was easy, there would certainly be no harm in offering the alternative. I suspect it's not particularly easy, but I don't know. Of your various specific features you'd like to see, FYI you can have multiple clips in Take Lanes all feeding the same effects - you don't have to use a bus. Also, unless I'm missing something, you could place a harmony on a different track and then just hide it if you want it out of the way from a visual standpoint. I don't know of any workaround for the Track folder limitations you mention compared to layers. I guess the reason why that doesn't matter to me is by the time I've put something in a Track folder, it's been edited and I'm putting it in the folder to tidy up the workspace. Even if I could see the waveform, I probably wouldn't care because I'd have the track minimized anyway.
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icontakt
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/21 20:50:55
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Jlien X
Anyway, what I'd really like to know is if there's a way to record all takes (including overlapped clips) in just one lane WITHOUT enabling the Expand/Collapse Take Lanes button. Can X3 do this?
When I record MIDI, I want to use lanes as a place to keep alternative ideas (that's why I don't want muted clips in additional lanes to appear in the main track when the lanes are collapsed).
Just responding to this one point. The answer is no. A lane as it name implies cannot have overlapping data on it. It is like a lane on a highway - you can't have two cars at the same place in the lane without causing a crash :)
The whole point of lanes is to provide a way to "explode" a view of overlapping clips on a single track to multiple lanes, and provide a way of editing and managing this data through the comping tools and workflow.
You cannot use a single lane as a repository for multiple clips that overlap - its not designed for that.
If you haven't already watched the comping video's I highly recommend checking them out so you can understand some use cases for the comping workflow and tools.
Thank you for chiming in, Noel. The highway metaphor is good, I understand that. If you're still reading this, I hope you'll improve at least these two regarding Take Lanes: 1. The Expand/Collapse Take Lanes button in the lower left corner of the track strip isn't really helping, because it turns blue (a little too dark, though) ONLY when you record something in the track or drag a file from the Browser (the latter doesn't happen if it's a MIDI track, though), but NOT when you drag a clip from another track. Also, the color of the button remains the same even when there are overlapping clips in the track (i.e. when there are two or more lanes). IMO, the button shouldn't change color when there's only one lane (or no lane), and should turn blue (a bit brighter than the current blue but not as bright as that you see when the lanes are expanded) when there are overlapping clips (i.e. two or more lanes). This way, you can tell if there are overlapping clips in the track WITHOUT expanding the lanes. Note: I sent in a feature request for this (not exactly the same, though), but I assumed the person in charge of FR would drop the idea and it would never get to you, so I mentioned the suggestion here.  2. As I mentioned in the original post (and also some other threads on Take Lanes), muted MIDI clips and MIDI clips in a muted lane should NOT appear in the track when the lanes are collapsed. Thank you
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brian brock
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/21 20:53:41
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yeah there's other ways to get things done - it just seems that those workarounds are less efficient than the old habits which I developed over the years.
I get everything I need done in X3, more or less, but it could be better.
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Keni
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/21 23:32:43
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Jlien X
Anyway, what I'd really like to know is if there's a way to record all takes (including overlapped clips) in just one lane WITHOUT enabling the Expand/Collapse Take Lanes button. Can X3 do this?
When I record MIDI, I want to use lanes as a place to keep alternative ideas (that's why I don't want muted clips in additional lanes to appear in the main track when the lanes are collapsed).
Just responding to this one point. The answer is no. A lane as it name implies cannot have overlapping data on it. It is like a lane on a highway - you can't have two cars at the same place in the lane without causing a crash :)
The whole point of lanes is to provide a way to "explode" a view of overlapping clips on a single track to multiple lanes, and provide a way of editing and managing this data through the comping tools and workflow.
You cannot use a single lane as a repository for multiple clips that overlap - its not designed for that.
If you haven't already watched the comping video's I highly recommend checking them out so you can understand some use cases for the comping workflow and tools.
Ahhh... yes Noel... I know that... But that's one of the problems... sometimes it is necessary to allow the sutain of one sound to continue beyond where the other Lane/clip starts... so comping doesn't handle this... Many of us NEED to allow some things to overlap even when dealing with takes of the same data but different performances... It's a great tool but it needs to be able to be switched off! Layers allowed this! Keni
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Anderton
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/22 03:56:25
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Keni
Ahhh... yes Noel... I know that... But that's one of the problems... sometimes it is necessary to allow the sutain of one sound to continue beyond where the other Lane/clip starts... so comping doesn't handle this... Many of us NEED to allow some things to overlap even when dealing with takes of the same data but different performances...
If they're different performances, what's wrong with having them in different Take Lanes? You can trim individual clips within take lanes if you want. Sounds can overlap all you want if they're in different lanes. They can also play back at the same time.
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brian brock
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/22 11:53:09
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with the lanes concept, especially the comp-mode iteration, while it may be possible to do some of the things in question, there's a lot of different behaviors you have to account for - will clicking here mute this clip, or mute all the other clips? If I accidentally move this clip on top of that one, with the old one completely disappear? How do I get the little auto-crossfade handle to show between these two clips? In some modes, splitting one clip splits all the other clips - have to keep track of that. Make sure to only click on the top little bar or you'll be splitting or muting or whatever. And so on.
Obviously there are answers to all of these issues - each of these little questions represents an intended behavior corresponding to an imagined ideal workflow. Even if these tools are your bread and butter, though, there are still more little details to worry about if all you want is to move some clips around. The fact alone that you can't sometimes crossfade between clips unless the track lanes are collapsed is a problem.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/22 13:05:35
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Anderton
If they're different performances, what's wrong with having them in different Take Lanes? You can trim individual clips within take lanes if you want. Sounds can overlap all you want if they're in different lanes. They can also play back at the same time.
Exactly, overlaps are permitted as long as they reside in different lanes. So you can certainly continue to work with cases where you want stacking of voices on a single track. The comping workflow favors isolation but you can certainly ctrl-click on a clip to make it sound simultaneously with another lane. Here is the thing. However users interpreted the old layers approach. it was originally intended for comping but fell short because the design was too simplistic and didn't handle the 90% case it was intended to solve, which is comping a single part out of many takes. Yes you could comp in a loose sense with layers, by using workarounds and by manually toggling the solos and mutes along with using the older isolate tool. I've worked with the old layers approach myself and frankly the experience wasn't good, requiring so many intermediate operations that it destroyed my focus on what I was trying to do. Essentially all the old layers paradigm did internally was assigning an index to the clips withing tracks. Beyond that you were on your own to mute solo or isolate the individual clips after recording multiple passes. It was a cumbersome workflow requiring users to manually toggle the solo states after each record pass to hear it. On the other hand with the take lanes design, we started with the use cases we wished to be effortless and worked from there on designing tools especially for that purpose. We considered all boundary use cases as well as we could, and alternate workflow decisions were also carefully considered. Take lanes also build upon similar infrastructure as layers (that's why its backwards compatible) but all the magic and logic lives in the new tools and commands. Essentially lanes *are* layers with tools that are optimized for the most requested comping operations. For those asking why we couldn't retain the old layers UI functionality, the reasons are manifold. The tools paradigm there wasn't something that could be extended to do what we wanted. Also it would have been an utter mess to maintain and support two completely different user interfaces especially since the latter was a dead end. We can pretty much do most of what the manual layers approach did better and faster with the lanes approach. If there are missing workflows we can consider them and expand lanes to accommodate it potentially but your cases need to be clearly articulated and described separately. Putting a million posts into a single thread makes it very difficult for anyone to decipher and ends up clouding the issue further. A good way to describe workflow related problems are by stating use cases or "stories". Make a thread or report explaining exactly what you are trying to do from start to finish and why you cannot achieve it with the given tools. That's by far the best way to communicate an idea to a product manager or someone involved with the feature.
post edited by Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk] - 2013/12/22 13:14:35
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Splat
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/22 13:18:46
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So here is a simple question...
I'm working with a vocalist, a particularly bad one. I've done ten takes with him (he's sung all the way through the song 10 times) and I've decided in the end I like take 3, although I did pause and drop him in once during that take.
So I'm not really comping in the end.... well not much...
Will my "producers notes" (I wrote somewhere on a piece of paper "Take 3 is excellent"). Would this tally up with what happened in Sonar? Or has his vocal performance been spread across multiple takelanes, and with ten takes I'd just have to re-review the situation (as I won't be able to find that killer performance many hours later without reviewing every single take again)...
Thanks
Alex
Sell by date at 9000 posts. Do not feed. @48/24 & 128 buffers latency is 367 with offset of 38. Sonar Platinum(64 bit),Win 8.1(64 bit),Saffire Pro 40(Firewire),Mix Control = 3.4,Firewire=VIA,Dell Studio XPS 8100(Intel Core i7 CPU 2.93 Ghz/16 Gb),4 x Seagate ST31500341AS (mirrored),GeForce GTX 460,Yamaha DGX-505 keyboard,Roland A-300PRO,Roland SPD-30 V2,FD-8,Triggera Krigg,Shure SM7B,Yamaha HS5.Maschine Studio+Komplete 9 Ultimate+Kontrol Z1.Addictive Keys,Izotope Nectar elements,Overloud Bundle,Geist.Acronis True Image 2014.
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/22 13:28:52
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Each discrete recording should end up in its own take lane. I normally write down the good take number T3/T4 etc.
Also you can directly put your notes in the take lane itself. You do know there is a comment field right in the lane itself don't you? :)
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Keni
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/22 13:31:36
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Anderton
If they're different performances, what's wrong with having them in different Take Lanes? You can trim individual clips within take lanes if you want. Sounds can overlap all you want if they're in different lanes. They can also play back at the same time.
Exactly, overlaps are permitted as long as they reside in different lanes. So you can certainly continue to work with cases where you want stacking of voices on a single track. The comping workflow favors isolation but you can certainly ctrl-click on a clip to make it sound simultaneously with another lane.
Here is the thing. However users interpreted the old layers approach. it was originally intended for comping but fell short because the design was too simplistic and didn't handle the 90% case it was intended to solve, which is comping a single part out of many takes. Yes you could comp in a loose sense with layers, by using workarounds and by manually toggling the solos and mutes along with using the older isolate tool. I've worked with the old layers approach myself and frankly the experience wasn't good, requiring so many intermediate operations that it destroyed my focus on what I was trying to do.
Essentially all the old layers paradigm did internally was assigning an index to the clips withing tracks. Beyond that you were on your own to mute solo or isolate the individual clips after recording multiple passes. It was a cumbersome workflow requiring users to manually toggle the solo states after each record pass to hear it.
On the other hand with the take lanes design, we started with the use cases we wished to be effortless and worked from there on designing tools especially for that purpose. We considered all boundary use cases as well as we could, and alternate workflow decisions were also carefully considered. Take lanes also build upon similar infrastructure as layers (that's why its backwards compatible) but all the magic and logic lives in the new tools and commands. Essentially lanes *are* layers with tools that are optimized for the most requested comping operations.
For those asking why we couldn't retain the old layers UI functionality, the reasons are manifold. The tools paradigm there wasn't something that could be extended to do what we wanted. Also it would have been an utter mess to maintain and support two completely different user interfaces especially since the latter was a dead end.
We can pretty much do most of what the manual layers approach did better and faster with the lanes approach. If there are missing workflows we can consider them and expand lanes to accommodate it potentially but your cases need to be clearly articulated and described separately. Putting a million posts into a single thread makes it very difficult for anyone to decipher and ends up clouding the issue further. A good way to describe workflow related problems are by stating use cases or "stories". Make a thread or report explaining exactly what you are trying to do from start to finish and why you cannot achieve it with the given tools. That's by far the best way to communicate an idea to a product manager or someone involved with the feature.
Thanks Noel... I appreciate the explanations regarding the reasoning and changed solution process very much... With a few changes I could easily work with Lanes instead of Layers, but some of the changed toolset make some work much harder fir me so I get aggravated by every other issue along the way... I think that my biggest issues wit the X generation have not changed and they all seem to relate to the use of screen space... Fewer visible tools or data sacrificed for other reasons... Zoom.... Ok I won't go there right now... The new comping tool is awesome in its foresight and I appreciate it a lot more than it seems others understand me to be... What's killing me about it is that it is a default action instead of a choice. As Craig has pointed out to me once again, the work can still be done, but the tools and defaults have changed and been added to... I hope that over time I can learn to be as comfortable with this arrangement as I once was with the earlier incarnations and I will do my best to remain calm... Not an easy task for an eccentric artist! ;-) Keni
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Splat
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/22 13:34:59
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Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Each discrete recording should end up in its own take lane. I normally write down the good take number T3/T4 etc.
Also you can directly put your notes in the take lane itself. You do know there is a comment field right in the lane itself don't you? :)
Yes I did, and I forgot about it :) Quite right... I guess I was thinking more about my Post #39 more than anything, that was one of the things that really put me off the functionality, what it was doing here didn't make much sense at all to me ...... Thanks...
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brian brock
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/22 14:39:30
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I see that Cakewalk's fixed idea about what people are supposed to do with Sonar is the basic stumbling block here.
A simple, stupid tool or edit mode which would allow us to just grab clips and move them around without all the fancy bells and whistles may seem to be a mere salve for the weak-minded and inexperienced, but please remember that a lot of the most interesting art comes from exploring the capabilities of a limited tool. When you assume that the only use for lanes is comping, it's not surprising that the tool becomes less versatile.
Besides all of this, from what I have read here, comping multi-track instruments has not been adequately addressed in the new toolset. I would think that if you're going to focus on one use, you would try to master every case of it.
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brundlefly
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/22 14:57:33
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brian brock
A simple, stupid tool or edit mode which would allow us to just grab clips and move them around...
Stay away from the bottom half and the very ends of the clip, and that's what you've got - the Move tool. Looking at it that way, 50% of the clip is devoted to just moving it around. I don't see how you get that an assumption has been made that "the only use for lanes is comping".
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fooman
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/22 15:36:25
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What gets me caught and stuck is when there is a gap between clips in different lanes. Even a miniscule one that I have really zoom to see. Then when I go to crossfade the clips in the lanes I can't. I haven't found an efficient way to make sure the clips line up and therefore enable the crossfade tool between lanes.
I always see examples using vocals. That's fine. Vox are relatively easy to edit and comp.
Please give me a super quick video editing a loose drummer that needs a fill and a random snare hit moved to continue the proper groove. I have this happen all the time and using lanes is just a nightmare. I assume it's because my head is where it's been since Sonar 6, but a "editing less-than-stellar drums for dummies" video would sure help me :)
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Keni
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/22 21:52:10
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Anderton
elijahlucian
I'm pretty sure roland didn't take all the tech support tickets with them when they left, meaning, these issues should be resolved BEFORE making a new version... that's how it's supposed to be done... at least, when paying customers are in the equation....
If those "paying customers in the equation" are using X2 Producer, they're being offered an upgrade price for X3 Producer (which is a better program) for the price of Addictive Drums all by itself. And they get the $99 version of Melodyne, all the Nomad Factory Blue Tubes plug-ins, VST3 support, ARA integration, Skylight improvements, Gobbler integration, Pro Channel EQ improvements, a tape emulation module, speed comping, and bunch of other features. Oh, and four free updates (so far) with additional video capabilities coming next. If they stick with X3 for a year, it costs them $12.50 a month.
I think few people would consider that kind of deal as showing anything but gratitude for existing customers.
Can you imagine if musicians were subject to this kind of thinking? "I think your first album has a bunch of mistakes in it, especially some of the mixes but also some parts are out of time, so I think you should redo the parts and remix the tracks so the album is up to today's standards before releasing another album. Oh, and you should replace my first copy for free."
For better or for worse, that's just not the way the world works. Well, on second thought maybe Trent Reznor would remix stuff and give it away for free...but he's an exception
Oh yeah! that would be an interesting predicament! People are still coming to understand what it means to be a software "developer" and many just don't get it... Keni
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mudgel
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/23 04:19:45
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I think the real stumbling block here is that some people want to use sonar in a way it's not programmed to be used.
It might mean changing your work flow but surely that has to be easier than constantly trying to put square pegs in round holes figuratively speaking.
Noël stated categorically that Layers will not be brought back. So perhaps if enhancements to take lanes are wanted then the proper course would be to put in a feature request. In the meantime learn how to use what can be done
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fooman
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/23 09:13:00
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mudgel
In the meantime learn how to use what can be done
I'd love to. I don't see how it's easily done. If Cake can make a short video of comping real live drums, not played to a grid, that'd be a huge bunch of awesomeness. Cause every video shows vocals obviously played to a grid that uses AD or Session Drummer. If you can't edit perfectly timed takes then you need more than speed-comping to help your workflow.
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Keni
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/23 11:39:32
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mudgel
I think the real stumbling block here is that some people want to use sonar in a way it's not programmed to be used.
It might mean changing your work flow but surely that has to be easier than constantly trying to put square pegs in round holes figuratively speaking.
Noël stated categorically that Layers will not be brought back. So perhaps if enhancements to take lanes are wanted then the proper course would be to put in a feature request. In the meantime learn how to use what can be done
Yes... I never actually expected that they would bring back Layers... The statement was really to connect with the needs... I can easily see Lanes being made to do all the things that Layers did as well as all the new additional cool features that is added. I can easily see where some of these tools will and are already helpful as I learn them... Here's my very short lust of things that would fix that for me... 1) add modifier to alt-click such as ctrl-alt-click to give discrete lane splitting with fast access to this tool 2) change zoom (or add alternate method) so that lanes can be as small or large as a track using the z-click-drag tool 3) enable a view mode that permits the lanes to be displayed within the track area instead of showing the comp 4) add some visual item that differentiates between track and lane while still keeping them relative to parent track Shades? Note that number 4 should be for both the clips and the control areas... Then I'd be fine with Lanes... Keni
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Keni
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Re: I still don't like Take Lanes...
2013/12/23 11:45:51
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fooman
mudgel
In the meantime learn how to use what can be done
I'd love to. I don't see how it's easily done. If Cake can make a short video of comping real live drums, not played to a grid, that'd be a huge bunch of awesomeness.
Cause every video shows vocals obviously played to a grid that uses AD or Session Drummer. If you can't edit perfectly timed takes then you need more than speed-comping to help your workflow.
I'm finding that it is possible to do and only a tad more cumbersome than it was... It took some investigation, complaining, and pointers /ideas from a number of people.. The short of it? Use the actual split tool and it allows you to split discrete lanes Use the K key to un mute overlapping clips and edit fades Then all the other tools become helpful additives as you will find I'm sure... I found that once I use F8 and cycle it go the split tool, I can simply return to the smart tool and back with a single F5<>F8... Keni
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