wanna love X3
on a totally different subject, does anyone see what I mean regarding layers vs lanes on the videos? please share some light if I am blind.

I watched the two videos on layers, and I've added some comments to the X3 one.
For what it's worth, I think you have valid points and you made yourself very clear in the two videos. Craig says it best, "we've lost 20% but gained 150%". I'm not sure I agree with him because I myself tend to fall into the 20% rather than the 150%... but that said, I can appreciate what Cakewalk were going for with X3.
 
It'd be nice to have layers back but I'm definitely not holding my breath. And in the meantime, I'm able to be productive with X3.

stickman393

wanna love X3
on a totally different subject, does anyone see what I mean regarding layers vs lanes on the videos? please share some light if I am blind.

I watched the two videos on layers, and I've added some comments to the X3 one.
For what it's worth, I think you have valid points and you made yourself very clear in the two videos. Craig says it best, "we've lost 20% but gained 150%". I'm not sure I agree with him because I myself tend to fall into the 20% rather than the 150%... but that said, I can appreciate what Cakewalk were going for with X3.
 
It'd be nice to have layers back but I'm definitely not holding my breath. And in the meantime, I'm able to be productive with X3.

I'm giving up on any hope they'll bring it back really, I just needed to make sure you could not do in x3 what you could in 8.5, and there's no valid workaround. Working on multiple audio tracks and managing gain change, plugins, volume, automation on multiple tracks while you're trying out different ideas, I mean it would get crazy overwhelming - You summed it up perfectly in your comment. Lanes might be clearer for some, but they certainly are less powerfull from a creative stand point

wanna love X3
All valid Craig! but for only for COMPiNG, the oh-so-necessary but oh-so-brain-damaging-neuron-burning task all producers (me included) become OCD'ed from.

 
Much less so since X3...it's the fastest comping I've used, including Logic.
 

Have you seen my videos?

 
Yes. Did you read my articles? I think you would realize that Take Lanes can do tricks that go way beyond comping, like building up massed choral vocal parts and such.
 

Let me ask you this If you were to chose beetween comping all day, and being creative all day and experimenting and having fun and mold parts and variations, what would you chose!

I do both with Sonar X3, that's why I like it so much. I make drum loops exactly the same way you were creating loops with Layers, except I do them with tracks in a track folder. I can work just as fast as you do with layers, and when I decide to do actual production with the loops, I have more flexibility because they're on tracks and can have separate processing, automation, and so on. It's the best of both worlds - I can work really fast as a scratch pad, but when it's time to move from writing to production, I don't have to do anything. It's all ready for bouncing/mixing/EQ etc.
 
Then when i need to overdub vocals or lead guitars, I comp if I need to and get that element done pretty much effortlessly. When I need to crossfade, I collapse to the parent track, do my crossfades, then open the lanes again.
 
The way you're using Layers is like a subset of using tracks. It's really no faster than using tracks, and it's less flexible. I understand that due to personal preference you'd rather use Layers than tracks in a track folder, but I can't think of any practical reason why.
 
Of course, there is no law against doing what feels comfortable to you. If you like the way Layers worked in 8.5, then keep using them that way. At this point I know X3 very well and have found out how to get the best use out of Take Lanes, Tracks, and Comping in both the songwriting and production/mixing process. Going back to 8.5.3 would be like putting up speed limit signs on my creativity. I can do what I want to do eventually, it would just take a lot longer to do it.
 
The amount of hours I lost learning how to do things "the X3 way" were an investment that has saved me many, many more hours in the long run.

Very good advice Bob. It is clear that X3 is not Sonar 8.5.3 and we who have adopted the new ways of doing things have been rewarded with far better ease of use. 
 
In the end its a new program. Learn it.

wanna love X3
there's no valid workaround. Working on multiple audio tracks and managing gain change, plugins, volume, automation on multiple tracks while you're trying out different ideas, I mean it would get crazy overwhelming

I can think of a really easy workaround. All the tracks you want to use as layers routed to a bus. All those tracks in a folder so you can mute and solo collectively. No effects and automation on the tracks, all effects and automation controlled from the buses. Just like lanes, only with more features (eg: panning of individual lanes, lane specific effects if you want them, etc).

John T

wanna love X3
there's no valid workaround. Working on multiple audio tracks and managing gain change, plugins, volume, automation on multiple tracks while you're trying out different ideas, I mean it would get crazy overwhelming

I can think of a really easy workaround. All the tracks you want to use as layers routed to a bus. All those tracks in a folder so you can mute and solo collectively. No effects and automation on the tracks, all effects and automation controlled from the buses. Just like lanes, only with more features (eg: panning of individual lanes, lane specific effects if you want them, etc).

+1 this is how I do it with some track templates to make it easier to setup

Anderton

wanna love X3
I just needed to make sure you could not do in x3 what you could in 8.5, and there's no valid workaround. Working on multiple audio tracks and managing gain change, plugins, volume, automation on multiple tracks while you're trying out different ideas, I mean it would get crazy overwhelming

But there are plenty of workarounds. Just because there are volume, automation, plug-ins, etc. parameters does't mean you have to use them. You didn't use them in your video, you don't need to use them with tracks. And if you want to make a change on all the tracks at once, there's quick grouping. But you don't even have to do that.
 
If you want to process everything and automate everything, you can use a bus as described above. That's a super-simple option; you can also drag your finished tracks into Take Lanes. But based on your video, you're mostly playing around with creating a couple of tracks, not putting an entire song in layers.
 
Really, as mentioned above creating a track template where everything goes to a bus not only solves what you need to do, but offers more flexibility...in fact it might be faster to drag in a track template than create all those layers. And you can do comping, too 
 
Regardless, I am VERY glad you started this thread because the ideas contributed by others of having a "scratchpad" track template for doing "layers on steroids" is great, and one that I plan to use.
 

Watch my 2 new videos I just posted if you may (I removed the menu LAG ones, since the matter got solved by someone's suggestion to clean up my layout file from absenties)



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYZWlBZfvss
 
and
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxBxp4zImwg


I had figured out the bus workaround (and more) this morning already working in folders. After 7 minutes of filming myself I came up with this bus routing option.
 
And to sum things up, it's not a good one!

Why? I briefly go over it in the video, but essentially : because it's exactly what it is, a workaround! And it's more and more things to think about when trying to get creative on different elements or tracks.

Let's say I want to be creative on many tracks like I usually do (I scratch pad on everything from synth to drums to intruments to vocal). That forces me to have one aux per element I want to fiddle with. I don't know if you can, but imagine the session bordello it would be, track management hell at its finest. It's not rare for me
to mess with 20-30 different tracks per project... who's going to have 20 or 30 aux just to audition the audio from EACH AND EVERY AUDIO TRACK through plugins...?

I tried the track template approach and saved a preset with a folder containing 6 empty audio tracks. Not only does it take a lot of time to load this template (4-5 seconds? empty tracks get added one by one?) but you can't save any sort of routing towards a bus that should also be saved if I was to save some time. you still have to manage and manage. Or create a project template with layers and layers and busses and busses. It should be an open, empty canvas where you have total freedom. Even to mess up. Like 8.5.


To me the creative flow is #1. I've done this long enough to know when it's flowing and fluid, and when it's not. If there's too many steps in the process, it kills instinct and ideas, period. It's not a matter of learning new ways (wich I have NO PROBLEM DOING, ever) it's the efficiency/fluidity of that particular way of doing things.

I give up, this workflow is just no good for me, it requires too much brain time when trying to be creative, I don't want to be an engineer when I'm creating. I want to be a kid.

thanx for all the suggestions though -

CakeAlexS
Why doesn't this surprise me, anyway just keep using 8 if you don't want to learn a new product, I wouldn't bother posting any more until one you decide to take the plunge (if ever) as I would have thought this to be a waste of your time. BTW you can actually post direct youtube links here, I would look at the vids to be honest if they were clickable. All you need to do is paste the URL or embed in a hyperlink.
 
If you were actually using X3 I would probably spend a bit more time on this thread trying to engage to be honest.

Ta.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYZWlBZfvss
 
and
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OxBxp4zImwg

Beepster
He's reached the 25 post mark so he can now post hyperlinks.
 
So can I...
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkGrkNu6mDg

LOL :) good one!

Beepster
Well, at least you have a sense of humor. I can deal with that.
 
If I could help you I would but honestly all I can say at this point is (as have many others), spend the time learning the new tools and methods and I'm sure you'll be pleasantly surprised.
 
Cheers.

You guys all helped really! I'm a pretty quick learner and I've tried the workarounds in x3. It's not about "practicing" or spending time with this, it won't get quicker with time! it's the way X3 is thought out and layed out. It's too rigid... ways of doing things are too "pre-defined" and correspond to "some dude's" idea of a workflow, or even a layout.

and it will slow me down! that I can tell.
 
I'm sure 8.5.3 was designed by william wallace... freeeeeddooommmm

Beepster
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkGrkNu6mDg

Beepster, that cracked me the f up!
 
As for, Wanna love X3? Even if you're working with layers, eventually you have to take them and put them into tracks of their own so that you can mix them, right?
 
You are after all a *cough* professional, right?
 
Skip the middle man, bro...
 
PS: If I'm feeding a troll? I god damned meant to, alright?!!

Anderton
 
...I am VERY glad you started this thread because the ideas contributed by others of having a "scratchpad" track template for doing "layers on steroids" is great, and one that I plan to use.
 

 
Have to admit when I read this technique high above I kind went: "Well DUH!". I mean in retrospect I never thought of it but it seems so obvious when you see. Hindsight 20/20 as they say.
 
+a lot
 
Regards, 

wanna love X3
I had figured out the bus workaround (and more) this morning already working in folders. After 7 minutes of filming myself I came up with this bus routing option.

And to sum things up, it's not a good one!

 
It sure isn't! In my articles about Take Lanes, they're pretty much all prefaced with "First, unlearn everything you know about layers." The reason why everything strikes you as a workaround is because you're trying to make X3 be 8.5, which it isn't, so you HAVE to do a workaround.
 
You don't have to manage anything with a track template with respect to sends. Just bring in the template, and ignore sends ever existed. You can even make them disappear if you don't want to be reminded they exist, and that can be part of the track template too. You can use auto-zoom to change all heights the same way, or not. You don't have to adjust the heights on tracks individually.
 
You are overthinking this and I don't think you understand X3 well enough to take advantage of the features that would speed up your workflow. Watching your video about using track folders in X3 is painful. I keep wanting to yell out "NO!! Don't do that - that workflow sucks!! Do this instead!!"
 
That doesn't mean you won't prefer 8.5, but I guarantee you will always prefer 8.5 if you don't learn how X3 works, and that won't happen in a week. I think it's safe to say that most people who are thoroughly familiar with the approaches taken in 8.5 and X3 on balance prefer X3. As I and others have said, the time lost learning X3 has been more than compensated for by the additional efficiencies.
 
 

Anderton

wanna love X3
I had figured out the bus workaround (and more) this morning already working in folders. After 7 minutes of filming myself I came up with this bus routing option.

And to sum things up, it's not a good one!

 
It sure isn't! In my articles about Take Lanes, they're pretty much all prefaced with "First, unlearn everything you know about layers." The reason why everything strikes you as a workaround is because you're trying to make X3 be 8.5, which it isn't, so you HAVE to do a workaround.
 
You don't have to manage anything with a track template with respect to sends. Just bring in the template, and ignore sends ever existed. You can even make them disappear if you don't want to be reminded they exist, and that can be part of the track template too. You can use auto-zoom to change all heights the same way, or not. You don't have to adjust the heights on tracks individually.
 
You are overthinking this and I don't think you understand X3 well enough to take advantage of the features that would speed up your workflow. Watching your video about using track folders in X3 is painful. I keep wanting to yell out "NO!! Don't do that - that workflow sucks!! Do this instead!!"
 
That doesn't mean you won't prefer 8.5, but I guarantee you will always prefer 8.5 if you don't learn how X3 works, and that won't happen in a week. I think it's safe to say that most people who are thoroughly familiar with the approaches taken in 8.5 and X3 on balance prefer X3. As I and others have said, the time lost learning X3 has been more than compensated for by the additional efficiencies.
 
 

Ok!
Visually show me your workflow for something similar as my scratchpad idea.

wanna love X3
Visually show me your workflow for something similar as my scratchpad idea.

I don't see what's so special about the workflow in your videos that hasn't already been addressed in my articles, my posts, and the posts of others. Nor do I want to spend the time to watch your videos repeatedly until I finally do figure out something that may or may not be unique about your approach, because I didn't see anything after one view. So I can only assume I would spend time on doing a video, and you would say "No! That's not what I mean!" because I sure don't see what you're doing that's different in any significant way from how I use X3 as a scratchpad.
 
I've already told you how to do what you want to do. I have a limited amount of time and would rather help those who already understand the workflow, as well as work on super-secret cool Cakewalk stuff that will benefit more than just one person.
 
Now, just so you don't go "See! You can't do it! Ha ha ha!," I reserve the right to run Camtasia sometime when I'm putting together a drum loop and you can see for yourself.