Helpful ReplyI want to love X3!

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wanna love X3
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/03 05:21:27 (permalink)
Anderton
wanna love X3
Visually show me your workflow for something similar as my scratchpad idea.



I don't see what's so special about the workflow in your videos that hasn't already been addressed in my articles, my posts, and the posts of others. Nor do I want to spend the time to watch your videos repeatedly until I finally do figure out something that may or may not be unique about your approach, because I didn't see anything after one view. So I can only assume I would spend time on doing a video, and you would say "No! That's not what I mean!" because I sure don't see what you're doing that's different in any significant way from how I use X3 as a scratchpad.

 
Ok! so if there's nothing special in my workflow, then please take 10 minutes and show me (and I'm sure numerous others) what I am missing!
And I'm willing to show you how I do it at a normal pace in the middle of a running session in 8.5, It's way, way faster than on my videos where I'm talking/explaining.
 
No talk. Just workflow.
 

I've already told you how to do what you want to do. I have a limited amount of time and would rather help those who already understand the workflow

 
Wouldn't it be more logical for you to help those who don't understand the workflow...? 
Why the "exclusive club" mentality?
 
 

Now, just so you don't go "See! You can't do it! Ha ha ha!," I reserve the right to run Camtasia sometime when I'm putting together a drum loop and you can see for yourself.



Please do! I'm sure it would be helpfull to the countless others like me who are stuck on 8.5.3.
 
Ok?
 
 
 
 
 
#91
gswitz
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/03 06:41:41 (permalink)
I read Craig to be asking you to put a little effort in. It's been pointed out that you can buy lots of good videos if videos are what you want. And books, if books are what you want.
 
I know you are frustrated, but Craig is telling you that a lot of your problem is your understanding of Sonar X3.
 
Take some time with the help files if you don't want to buy videos. To tell the truth, I far prefer reading and trying than watching videos myself, but watching videos is less effort.
 
BTW, to maximize a track, just double click it when you do not have AutoZoom enabled. It doesn't work the same is in 8.5 in that the lanes push down below the screen if you have lanes expanded, so it isn't exactly what you are looking for, but I thought I should point it out.
 
You can use AutoZoom to have track sizes follow each other.
With Lanes, the size of the lanes remains consistent regardless of whether you have AutoZoom on.
 
You can use key bindings to give yourself a shortcut for the CrossFade.
Preferences > Cusomization > Keyboard Shortcuts > Type 'Cross' in the search box > Assign a key to it.
post edited by gswitz - 2014/07/03 07:14:28

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#92
John T
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/03 07:04:43 (permalink)
Can we ban the word "workflow"?

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gswitz
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/03 07:27:48 (permalink)
BTW, Wanna Love X3, I don't know the best way to do what you are trying to do.
 
I probably would throw the EQ on a bus and route all the tracks to that bus.
 
I can see that for what you are doing Sonar 8.5 worked better.
 
I couldn't make a demo using X3 that would have less steps to do the same thing as you do in 8.5. I could get close, but there would be more clicks to make the same thing happen.
 
Take a look at this post of Craig's...
http://forum.cakewalk.com/m/tm.aspx?m=2957165
 
Anything in there that's helpful?
post edited by gswitz - 2014/07/03 08:10:48

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#94
Anderton
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/03 11:49:10 (permalink)
wanna love X3
Ok! so if there's nothing special in my workflow, then please take 10 minutes and show me (and I'm sure numerous others) what I am missing!
And I'm willing to show you how I do it at a normal pace in the middle of a running session in 8.5, It's way, way faster than on my videos where I'm talking/explaining.

 
Okay, I'll take another look and see if I can figure out what makes your workflow unique. Maybe I'm missing something obvious, but it just doesn't seem that different from what I do.
 
Anderton
I've already told you how to do what you want to do. I have a limited amount of time and would rather help those who already understand the workflow


Wouldn't it be more logical for you to help those who don't understand the workflow...? 

 
That's why I write articles and books. It's clear from my history on this forum I spend a lot of time helping people who don't understand the workflow, as I tried to do with you. However, please remember that this forum is dedicated to people who use X-Series software. I did my best to point you to various resources that might help, but you are convinced it is not possible to have a workflow with X3 that's as efficient as 8.5. So, the solution if for you to keep using 8.5, and for me to continue a dialog with people who actually use X3.
 
Anderton
Now, just so you don't go "See! You can't do it! Ha ha ha!," I reserve the right to run Camtasia sometime when I'm putting together a drum loop and you can see for yourself.


Please do! I'm sure it would be helpfull to the countless others like me who are stuck on 8.5.3.

 
My next video is going to be a version of the seminar I did at GearFest called "Songwriting on the Fast Track." It doesn't address what you're doing with loops, but it is about processes for getting song ideas down fast. Maybe a video on putting together loops the way I think you're doing it would be a good follow-up.
 
 
 
 
 
 
 





The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
#95
Anderton
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/03 12:12:34 (permalink)
I watched the video again. As far as I can tell, the only unique elements you're taking advantage of compared to Take Lanes is that in layers, clips can overlap each other and play back while sitting in one layer, even if you can't see one behind the other; and you have a shortcut to enable or disable auto-crossfade. Correct?
 
BTW it seems you're splitting to separate a clip into smaller pieces? In X3 is you don't have to split them, you can just drag across a region and drag that region into another take lane or track, or elsewhere in the clip.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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wanna love X3
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/03 13:17:05 (permalink)
Anderton
I watched the video again. As far as I can tell, the only unique elements you're taking advantage of compared to Take Lanes is that in layers, clips can overlap each other and play back while sitting in one layer, even if you can't see one behind the other; and you have a shortcut to enable or disable auto-crossfade. Correct?

 
Yes. And to me this give me a total playground to do try anything I want, it feels like a playground to mess around AND also correct things.

I believe the layout also has something to do with this feeling -

in 8.5 multiple layers still make you feel like you're operating on ONE element, like this
 
X3's multiple lanes makes me feel like I'm in front of a multitrack with many
things to look at, many delimitations and buttons, like this
 
Anderton
BTW it seems you're splitting to separate a clip into smaller pieces? In X3 is you don't have to split them, you can just drag across a region and drag that region into another take lane or track, or elsewhere in the clip.



I tried again this morning to just dive into Lanes, and I just tried right now what you're suggesting with selecting a region and moving. and what stops my brain is : the handle.
 
in 8.5,  I split, grab, and move.
done.
 
in x3 I split (or I select like you mentioned) and then I have to AIM. I have to carefully use my eyes so the mouse falls on on a little narrow dark section over the clip.
 
It might not seem like much but to me it's a step too much If I want to be quick. and flipping from select tool to move tool (F6/F7) constantly would be a drag
post edited by wanna love X3 - 2014/07/04 08:08:27
#97
Beepster
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/03 13:44:10 (permalink)
wanna love X3
 
in x3 I split once, twice (or I select like you mentioned) and then I have to AIM. I have to carefully use my eyes so the mouse falls on on a little narrow dark section over the clip.
 
It might not seem like much but to me it's a step too much If I want to be quick.




There are many more hotspots on clips in X3 and yes... it gets a little ridiculous BUT you still have all the other tools. I recommend taking advantage of the toggle tool hotkey so you can quickly switch to what you need. I usually toggle between the Smart Tool and the Move Tool when cruising around the Clips Pane. You can also pop up the HUD at any time by pressing T (I think) and then select what you need. The HUD appears wherever your cursor is currently at.
 
Actually, I think what would be the best set up for what you just described is just keep the Move Tool as the main tool and either toggle to the Split Tool OR set the Now Time, select the clip, Press S (to split). For the latter you could make it easier to learn how to jog the Now Time with the Arrow keys with Snap enabled to get the Now Time exactly where you want then split.
 
However the first option would be the better point and shoot method which honestly... I think wandering around with the cursor is more time consuming, prone to weirdness and less accurate than using the keyboard in the long run for extensive editing.
 
This really is minutia though. I spend a loooooot of time scratch tracking in Sonar. It is how I write. It took me a while to figure out a flow (and it is still developing) but it can be done rather easily if you understand what is going on. Believe me... when I first tried to work this way in X3 it was a major pain until I learned a) that I could switch to Sound on Sound to get rid of the Comping oddities and b) eventually learned how and why Comping did what it did (and now I can easily work in Comping mode specifically because I now understand the resulting behavior).
 
So... if you are completely unwilling to bend your workflow even a little or bother spending the time to explore the program I think this thread is over. You've gotten multiple solutions and even had a well respected professional educator hold your hand and explain things step by step so you can accomplish what you claim to need.
 
If you that ain't enough for ya then you'll just have to work with 8.5 as your scratchpad/editing platform and then mix in X3 if you want the extra tools. There is nothing wrong with that and when I had problems with X2 I was going to do the exact same thing (except track/edit in another DAW entirely then import to X2 for mixing).
 
Sooo... get on with it. You have some studying to do. Good luck.
#98
Anderton
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/03 15:51:09 (permalink)
FWIW, I've had an offline exchange with the poster and he is not a troll, or another alt for the troll posts we've experienced lately. I realize the modus operandi seems the same, but he is a legit user who genuinely likes the way 8.5 works and has adapted his style of working to it. It is a style that is very specific and doesn't really lend itself to X3, hence his issue.
 
I can see both sides. He wants to be able to keep doing what's he's doing. As an analogy, if 8.5 is a six-string guitar, he wants X3 to be a 12-string - he can play it the same way, but do more. Personally, after adapting my workflow to 8.5 and to X3 to take advantage of each program's unique features, on balance I much prefer X3. However, I do recognize that some things have been lost. This is the basis for my "we lost 20% but gained 150%" comment.
 
The problem as I see it is the person who started this thread already has something that works, and doesn't want to interrupt what he does with essentially learning a new program in the hope that after an investment of time, he'll like X3. If he does, then he will be in the majority of the people here but if not, he will have wasted that time, will want to return to 8.5, and not be able to take advantage of all the cool features that X3 does offer.
 
However, my ultimate takeaway is that I really should do some videos about how to get ideas down fast with X3, including creating loops. I already have a video planned around doing conventional songwriting rapidly with X3, so doing one on more loop-based material would be a good follow-up. Whether it would benefit the poster or not is uncertain, but I do feel it would benefit current X3 users.

The first 3 books in "The Musician's Guide to Home Recording" series are available from Hal Leonard and http://www.reverb.com. Listen to my music on http://www.YouTube.com/thecraiganderton, and visit http://www.craiganderton.com. Thanks!
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gswitz
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/04 22:22:20 (permalink)
I went back and found Eli Krantzberg's video
Groove 3 Inc. SONAR X1 Tips & Tricks Video Download
That was for sale through Cakewalk for a while. It's a good one with some nice tricks in it.
 
In the video, he demonstrates how to use Audio Snap and Split to Clips as a starting point for doing this kind of loop construction.
 
In one of Craig Anderton's videos, he demonstrates how to use nudge on the 10 key pad to bump things left and right by increments, which is an interesting use of shortcuts for this type of sound design. Craig, do you remember demonstrating nudge? Maybe it was Eli, I can't remember now.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#100
Splat
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/04 22:46:23 (permalink)
It's certainly on the Eli videos. I can't remember which one though, as I've watched all the Groove3 videos on Cakewalk products.

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#101
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/05 09:15:46 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby jps 2014/07/05 10:25:49
It looks like the main thing the OP is expecting is like lanes to behave like normal tracks where you can arbitrarily overlap data. It was a design decision NOT to do that in X3. The primary purpose of track lanes is to do comping -i.e. you have multiple takes and wish to create a final take out of multiple versions of the same part. For this reason it is not designed to behave the same way as tracks. The tools all work towards this common purpose.
This was the same intent even in 8.5's layers but the paradigm was far from effective (besides being buggy). Having clips overlap on a layer/lane is a fundamentally problematic paradigm since there is no way for the user to see and edit the data, since at any point of time clips are hidden. I think its fair to say that most of our users hated this aspect and were unable to comp effectively because of this, among other limitations of the tools. This is why we came up with the X3 comping approach.
 
Now I can see how the OP has adopted a technique using the basic 8.5 lanes as a scratchpad. He is essentially using layers like alternative versions of the track and expecting them to behave like normal tracks for the most part. That will not work in X3 since we have made lanes do what layers were actually intended to do - which is comp :)
Besides the fact that you cannot overlap data on a given lane pretty much everything else can be accomplished in X3's lanes. However if you want to use it as a scratchpad, use tracks in folders. They are much more powerful than lanes for that purpose since technically you are not comping here! I see your point about having all the fx on one track but it takes a few seconds to set up all the tracks to output to a bus if containing the fx you need. You have exactly the same functionality with solo/mute etc. Finally once you are done with the scratchpad phase just pick your final track and set it up the way you want it.
 
To summarize, "one size fits all" tools like what existed in 8.3 are problematic since they don't handle any workflow particularly well. The tools and workflow that we implemented in X1 and higher follow paradigms that focus on perfecting specific workflows (like comping) rather than the all in one approach. Please try and use folders and tracks with quickgrouping and sends and you will find that they are as usable once you invest a little time learning them. Once learned you don't have to think about it and it will become second nature and not interrupt you.

Noel Borthwick
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#102
Blades
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/05 19:24:41 (permalink)
I have to say that I understand where the OP is coming from on this, as a number of other people have said since the replacement of layers came along.  I used to use layers for a lot of things, but mainly as a very immediate way to track a number of stacks of vocals for backgrounds.  Yes, I understand that there are other ways to do this with the new layers and I'm getting used to it, it just isn't as immediate somehow.  The ability to lay down tracks that all share the same effects together that don't require any extra busses to be setup that just work nearly instantly with no additional workflow to contend with. 
 
I'm not sure what the big deal really is, but I know that the layers functionality was much more obvious for experimenting and layering, regardless of what the bakers intended it to be used for.  It would be nice if they introduced that facility back in addition to the lanes - lanes for comping (which they are better at) and layers for other things like experimental arrangement and whatnot.
 
That said, I can understand that the ways that layers were used and the resulting bug reports due to their unexpected use - leading to bugs that couldn't be fixed because of the "too many variations" people were using them for that were just unsupportable - I know I certainly experienced a number of oddities in some of my experiments with clip effects and automations and such.
 
Just thought I'd weigh in - coming from the perspective of someone who uses Sonar infrequently enough that I have a hard time remembering how to do the "normal" things sometimes.

Blades
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#103
wanna love X3
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/05 21:24:51 (permalink)
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
It looks like the main thing the OP is expecting is like lanes to behave like normal tracks where you can arbitrarily overlap data. It was a design decision NOT to do that in X3. The primary purpose of track lanes is to do comping -i.e.

 
exactly my point since the begining of this thread! The ultra open, creative playground and multi-purpose tool that was Layers became a one trick poney no different than the one in cubase 7 or others.
 
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
you have multiple takes and wish to create a final take out of multiple versions of the same part. For this reason it is not designed to behave the same way as tracks. The tools all work towards this common purpose.
This was the same intent even in 8.5's layers but the paradigm was far from effective (besides being buggy).

 
With all due respect, who cares if it was not intended for comping?

Noel, even with the still present bugs, not only did it do the job for comping regardless of what you say & think, but it also CREATED a new approach to do some serious track mangling I'm not even showing on my videos, sound design, creative stuff, something completely new and UNIQUE that to this day you still can't do in any other daws and that you definitly can't do anymore in X's
 
I work with a lot of people, producers, musicians. Anybody who looks over my shoulder while I'm doing what I do is always amazed that they can't do this in their daw, it never misses. Logic users, Cubase or Protools you name it. The quick workflow to get an idea from "in your head" to "in your ears" = Layers.

We need the mess!

See it as a shapeless ball of clay you're able to mold into something more and more precise.
 
And the number of applications with layers was ridiculous. From sample acurate alignement of 2 elements in the same frame/space/window without any GUI extra design or graphics clogging or obstructing the view, to quick part switching, to double checking version a and versus b of this or that part through the fx bin just by dragging, to keeping a couple of variation QUICKLY ACCESSIBLE and visible in the same track visually speaking, same track height whatever the height, from mini to maxi, and a billion of other daily things I still do at the core of my workflow and can't do anymore, because of the absence of the layer system.
 
Please understand why with so much more to offer than comping, Layers are for me a difficult thing to give up. If you don't understand why, I'm passing by in boston for familly matters in a few month, I will gladdly show you. You might have programmed this beast, but users always find ways to use things for something else than they were intended for... and that one was the graal for some of us :/
 
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Having clips overlap on a layer/lane is a fundamentally problematic paradigm since there is no way for the user to see and edit the data, since at any point of time clips are hidden. I think its fair to say that most of our users hated this aspect and were unable to comp effectively because of this, among other limitations of the tools. This is why we came up with the X3 comping approach.


 
comping... here's that word again ;)
 
 
 
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Now I can see how the OP has adopted a technique using the basic 8.5 lanes as a scratchpad. He is essentially using layers like alternative versions of the track and expecting them to behave like normal tracks for the most part. That will not work in X3 since we have made lanes do what layers were actually intended to do - which is comp :)

 
here's that word again :) comping has been there for ages... it's not a novelty, this type of workflow was already possible and available back in the days of Ensoniq "Paris" remember...
 
 
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
Besides the fact that you cannot overlap data on a given lane pretty much everything else can be accomplished in X3's lanes. However if you want to use it as a scratchpad, use tracks in folders. They are much more powerful than lanes for that purpose since technically you are not comping here!

 
maybe! but folders are way less powerfull than layers!  folder is too much management, too many things to set up and look at. it's impossible to be quick and intuitive and mess up and try again and have happy accidents QUICK.
 
 
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
I see your point about having all the fx on one track but it takes a few seconds to set up all the tracks to output to a bus if containing the fx you need. You have exactly the same functionality with solo/mute etc. Finally once you are done with the scratchpad phase just pick your final track and set it up the way you want it.

 
Not completely accurate Noel :
-I'm often "scratchpad-ing" on multiple tracks especially at the begining of a session. what if I am scratchpading on 20 tracks? 20 aux?  the goal is to remain in the creative zone, not go in track management hell.
 
-It's necessary to see the FXBIN right there where the track and layers I'm working are, and NOT down there with the auxes, what if you want to try different fx on the fly quick! or switch the order of 2 fx on the fly quick quick! Don't wanna go down there, don't want to look for the right aux amongst many other auxes... this slows down the creative vibe, need to be QUICK
 
 
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
To summarize, "one size fits all" tools like what existed in 8.3 are problematic since they don't handle any workflow particularly well. The tools and workflow that we implemented in X1 and higher follow paradigms that focus on perfecting specific workflows (like comping)

 

 
 
Noel Borthwick [Cakewalk]
rather than the all in one approach. Please try and use folders and tracks with quickgrouping and sends and you will find that they are as usable once you invest a little time learning them. Once learned you don't have to think about it and it will become second nature and not interrupt you.



This is where you lose me... you can't force a concept of what you think should be a valid workflow to someone who has spent years developping his skills and finding certain ways to do things with the tools you guys provided in the first place. The same as I would not dare to tell you how to program Sonar or what language to use when doing it. You do this all day! You know best.  If the intention had been to ADD comping to the tool box, it would have been a different matter! But by taking away layers you're forcing me and others to see it your way, your idea of what music creation is or should be. - Noel I've watched X1, X2 and now X3 pass by and it's not by CHOICE. Other guys who do what I do,  like me,  on a daily basis, are stuck as well, there is a reason for that! There's a ton cool stuff in X3 that I would love to have as part as my technical workflow. Smart grid, automation lanes, the browser, saving fx chains and more. But NOT at the expense of giving up the core of what I do creatively speaking.
 
So here's an idea.
 
You took away Layers.
 
maybe now, introduce "Scratchpad"?
post edited by wanna love X3 - 2014/07/06 07:34:26
#104
wanna love X3
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/05 21:26:15 (permalink)
Blades
I have to say that I understand where the OP is coming from on this, as a number of other people have said since the replacement of layers came along.  I used to use layers for a lot of things, but mainly as a very immediate way to track a number of stacks of vocals for backgrounds.  Yes, I understand that there are other ways to do this with the new layers and I'm getting used to it, it just isn't as immediate somehow.  The ability to lay down tracks that all share the same effects together that don't require any extra busses to be setup that just work nearly instantly with no additional workflow to contend with. 
 
I'm not sure what the big deal really is, but I know that the layers functionality was much more obvious for experimenting and layering, regardless of what the bakers intended it to be used for.  It would be nice if they introduced that facility back in addition to the lanes - lanes for comping (which they are better at) and layers for other things like experimental arrangement and whatnot.
 
That said, I can understand that the ways that layers were used and the resulting bug reports due to their unexpected use - leading to bugs that couldn't be fixed because of the "too many variations" people were using them for that were just unsupportable - I know I certainly experienced a number of oddities in some of my experiments with clip effects and automations and such.
 
Just thought I'd weigh in - coming from the perspective of someone who uses Sonar infrequently enough that I have a hard time remembering how to do the "normal" things sometimes.




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John T
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/06 07:52:11 (permalink)
The OP certainly does have a point, but this is where my sympathy gives way to irritation:
wanna love X3

maybe! but folders are way less powerfull than layers!  folder is too much management, too many things to set up and look at.

This just isn't the case. Select a bunch of tracks, right click, add to new folder. Then route output to a bus. Done. One set of channel controls to deal with, exactly the same as what he had before, only now the controls are on the bus (which is what will be displayed in the inspector while he works on the track). And there are a bunch of extras should he need them, but those extras can be completely ignored if he doesn't.
 
The OP would seemingly rather spend days on end arguing on the internet than the matter of seconds it would take to set that up, and the matter of half an hour it would take to give it a serious try.

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#106
wanna love X3
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/06 08:53:31 (permalink)
John T
The OP certainly does have a point, but this is where my sympathy gives way to irritation:
wanna love X3

maybe! but folders are way less powerfull than layers!  folder is too much management, too many things to set up and look at.

This just isn't the case. Select a bunch of tracks, right click, add to new folder. Then route output to a bus. Done. One set of channel controls to deal with, exactly the same as what he had before, only now the controls are on the bus (which is what will be displayed in the inspector while he works on the track). And there are a bunch of extras should he need them, but those extras can be completely ignored if he doesn't.
 
The OP would seemingly rather spend days on end arguing on the internet than the matter of seconds it would take to set that up, and the matter of half an hour it would take to give it a serious try.


John, I can do the entire folder system workaround from grouping to puting tracks in a folder
to routing those in an aux in a matter of seconds like you say and starting to build a very complex session with too many auxes and too many folders and find myself in front of with a giant mess... in 8.5.3!! :/

Or do it with layers, and have them stay out of the way of the creative flow wich to me is crucial...

not a tough call!
post edited by wanna love X3 - 2014/07/06 09:05:33
#107
gswitz
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/06 09:03:01 (permalink)
Noel et al,
 
I understand the suggestion of routing all tracks to a bus and that the bus has a bunch of the features that the OP wants - Global Volume and Pan for all tracks in the folder, Single FX Bin for all Tracks in the folder - the ability to maximize it so he/she can see all tracks in the folder neatly.
 
It strikes me that this might be a feature that could be tacked on to the folder. Sort of an 'Auto Routing'. When you have a track folder where all tracks within the folder are routed to the same bus, that the bus FX Bin is available with the folder level data, along with a volume fader and pan. We've already got Mute, Solo and Record.
 
Maybe it's extra work without much value... just some extra complexity that will confuse some people. Idk. I thought I'd throw it out there and let people chew on it. It seems like there is a legitimate use case here, and perhaps an opportunity to flesh out Sonar to better meet that case.
 
It does look like track folders are the way to go for this use case. The question is, can some of the needs...
-- an easy way to maximize the folder to fit to screen with one click (like in layers)
-- at the folder view (without showing buses) access the FX bin of the target bus for all the tracks in the folder when all tracks are routed to a single bus
-- Volume and Pan for the related bus available on the track folder.
 
Just thoughts...

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#108
John T
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/06 09:17:35 (permalink)
Yeah, a bit more functionality in the folder itself would be nice. I've always thought they have some kind of volume fader offset for all tracks within, for example.

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#109
John T
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/06 09:19:35 (permalink)
wanna love X3
John, I can do the entire folder system workaround from grouping to puting tracks in a folder
to routing those in an aux in a matter of seconds like you say and starting to build a very complex session with too many auxes and too many folders and find myself in front of with a giant mess... in 8.5.3!! :/

Or do it with layers, and have them stay out of the way of the creative flow wich to me is crucial...

not a tough call!



 
When you say auxes, do you mean you'd use sends for it? That wouldn't be a good approach.

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#110
wanna love X3
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/06 09:53:59 (permalink)
John T
 
When you say auxes, do you mean you'd use sends for it? That wouldn't be a good approach.


Of course not.
I mean routing main outputs of multiple tracks to one bus
#111
John T
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/06 10:04:32 (permalink)
Right. And just that somehow breaks your ability to be creative?

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#112
gswitz
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/06 10:26:34 (permalink)
Wait, do we already have this?
 
If every track is routed to the same bus, if you click on any of them and check out the track inspector, can you see the bus fx bin, track fader and pan?
 
That's pretty close to what the OP is looking for. It only requires the OP to use the track inspector to get access to those controls. The bus pane can be hidden.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#113
John T
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/06 10:32:40 (permalink)
Indeed. It's all right there. I know we're all different, but he seems to be overstating his case a bit / not willing to give it a serious try.

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#114
robert_e_bone
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/06 10:40:25 (permalink)
John T
Yeah, a bit more functionality in the folder itself would be nice. I've always thought they have some kind of volume fader offset for all tracks within, for example.


Couldn't you have the tracks within a folder routed to one or more buses?  I do that for most groups of instruments in a given folder, such as drums, strings, brass, etc.
 
Bob Bone
 

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#115
John T
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/06 10:46:05 (permalink)
Sure, you can already do pretty much anything you need to. But it would be nice to have some extra things easily to hand in track view.

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#116
wanna love X3
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/06 12:37:52 (permalink)
John T
Indeed. It's all right there. I know we're all different, but he seems to be overstating his case a bit / not willing to give it a serious try.




:/
 
scratchpading on 10 tracks in 8.5.3
 
Accessible from the get-go. with 5 layers per track... I see everything! the volume the pan, the the fx bin of everytrack, no need to bus anything,  I can grab anything quick, zoom in and out quick etc etc... it's airy.  and I can actually see the 10 tracks if I choose to and still see the fxbin and everything else.
 
 
 
scracthpading on 10 folders in X3
 
so besides having to set this mess up, I can't grab anything without reasonaly zooming in (because of the handle), the GUI is extreme... lines everywhere, text everywhrere, buttons... jesus the record one looks like a graphic bug (to me)... anyway can't see volumes, pans, nothing.
blind.
and I need those 10 buses, and I  cant see all fx's at once... that another view to manage
 
and impossible to see the 10 folders at once of course.
 
 
no-way.
 
 
#117
John T
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/06 13:09:11 (permalink)
As mentioned above, if you were using the track inspector, you'd see volume and pan controls.
 
I'm not quite sure what the point of this thread is now; you've obviously decided you're not going to consider anyone's suggestions in detail.

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#118
Splat
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/06 13:17:12 (permalink)
@Wanna Love X3 - I don't know why you are still posting, surely if you dislike it so much you would have gone back to working with 8.x by now and forgot about it.
 
This really reminds me of what Windows 3.x users were posting when Windows 95 came. With the utmost respect I suggest you stop wasting your time posting on this thread and spend the time learning to use the UI with an open mind (I think people have said this so many times now it's getting tiring). I'm afraid you are drawing conclusions way too fast and showing great gaps in your knowledge when it comes to X3 way too quickly. People have been trying to help you, but it feels like we are trying to help a lawyer for the X3 prosecution, you seem to have a single track mind and that is to hate X3 (not to like it as you say in the subject title). Now is the time to help yourself. SONAR X3 IS NOT SONAR 8.x. Accept it, have a little patience, learn it or just forget it.
 
Putting Sonar X3 on trial in the forums and complaining about it really doesn't help you learn the product, and trying make it behave like 8.x will not help your productivity either.
 
BTW this is a good video (all applies to X3 mostly).... I hope it helps....
http://youtu.be/xw5z9BKWD-I
 
Cheers
 
Alex

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#119
Vastman
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Re: I want to love X3! 2014/07/06 13:56:10 (permalink)
Whiners like to whine... haters like to hate... I agree whole heartedly with you, Alex... the time spend regurgitating here is better spent learning the tools...
 
Mr. "wanna love X3", you are one of those scuzzy little flamers cluttering up forums with loads of bad energy... you're like arguing with a teabagging right winger... it is senseless. You're lazy, stuck, or just looking for attention. Your "handle" says it all...
 
My buddy tried X3 and ended up in Ableton as it "spoke" to him better... I tried Ableton and could never see switching... you just wallow in wallowing...
 
move on... 

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#120
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