Helpful ReplyIn built modulation sources

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sharke
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2014/10/27 16:34:48 (permalink)
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In built modulation sources

I know this is pretty much out there, but I'd love to see some kind of selection of baked-in modulation sources in Sonar (LFO's, envelopes etc) which could be assigned to mix parameters (or indeed any automation parameter you have set up).

So if, say, you wanted to auto-pan a number of instruments together, instead of using the (frankly fiddly) shape automation tools to draw the automation in for each track, you could just instantiate a sine wave LFO and assign it to the tracks you wanted. The possibilities would be endless.

In this bizarre fantasy I'm having, the modulation sources could themselves be modulated by other modulators, or automated with regular automation envelopes. So you could fade an LFO in with a ramp, for instance.

Am I talking nonsense? Wouldn't be the first time.

James
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#1
stevec
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Re: In built modulation sources 2014/10/27 18:32:58 (permalink)
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Sounds a little like Bitwig, not that I've tried it myself.   I could see myself using this type of functionality on occasion...
 

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#2
sharke
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Re: In built modulation sources 2014/10/28 01:04:45 (permalink)
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I think I would use it quite a lot. One of the reasons why I use Guitar Rig effects so much is that you can hook its modulators up to any parameter in your effect chain. Oftentimes I find myself wishing I could assign its LFO's, envelopes and sequencers outside of Guitar Rig. It's a great way of adding rhythmic and dynamic interest to your music. 

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#3
Loptec
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Re: In built modulation sources 2014/10/28 09:34:27 (permalink)
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Reaper has this feature already and I'd love to have it in Sonar!!
 
One of my friends use Reaper and I got really jealous the first time he showed me this. 
 
Just make a google search on reaper and parameter modulation. I think no one would argue this is an awesome feature that anyone could have great use for.

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#4
gswitz
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Re: In built modulation sources 2014/10/28 09:39:41 (permalink)
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B rock pointed out that you can write automation and send out as midi.then loop. it back and you can use it like a controller automate many parameters.

StudioCat > I use Windows 10 and Sonar Platinum. I have a touch screen.
I make some videos. This one shows how to do a physical loopback on the RME UCX to get many more equalizer nodes.
#5
b rock
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Re: In built modulation sources 2014/10/28 18:37:10 (permalink)
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B rock pointed out that you can write automation and send out as midi.then loop. it back and you can use it like a controller automate many parameters.

 
Took me a while to find that underrated feature thread.  You need a virtual MIDI cable, and it can be a bit of work to get a library started.  But once you do, it's addicting.  Now I can drag & drop just about any shape & rate. And yet, I'm still finding variations on that theme.  So I call up the "MIDI LFO Groove Clip" template, and zip off a few more custom controllers to fit the task at hand.
 
Even that process is basically a workaround (not a dirty word in my book) for what Sharke is suggesting here.  Not everyone would want to (or should necessarily have to) go to those lengths for "universal" modulations.
 
Just to show you how long I've wanted this type of feature in a native sense, here's a 7-year old post on a MIDI LFO feature request.  I actually spoke at length about this on the phone with Jesse Jost [ex-Cakewalk & Line6] the year prior.  {Hey, Andrew ... you were on the line, too, were you not?}
 
Think about it:  The per-track arpeggiator - simplistic terms - is an algorithmic lookup table with 128 possible values (notes).  "Up" is a ramp waveform.  "Down" is a sawtooth.  "Up & Down" - inclusive & exclusive - are triangle waveform variations.  "As Played" is a programmable waveform.  "Random" is ... you get the idea.  Now apply it to CC / pitchbend / aftertouch messages, rather than note values.
 
Toss in some CW programming wizardry, tab it alongside the arpeggiator, and you've got per-track MIDI LFOs.  Of course, it wouldn't hurt to to put in a mini-PRV window somewhere for custom waveforms, or consult RGC for some loadable waveform interpolations.  This would also be a good place to add a "Tracking Generator".  Modify the incoming MIDI messages with a "waveform" shape that processes the MIDI input range, then conforms it to that drawn shape for MIDI output (assignable to anything).
 
One-shots, repeat X times, and infinite cycles (latch) are essentially counters, and could be a shared feature with the arpeggiator.  Computers are fairly adept at counting.  One-shots are basically envelopes.  LFOs with thinned (quantized) data are per-track sequencers.  There are a LOT of ways to go with this.  Sure, there are a few MIDI FX that have similar concepts & features by now, but what fun is that (when you can have them pre-loaded & programmable per-track)???
#6
scook
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Re: In built modulation sources 2014/10/28 18:52:38 (permalink)
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Glad you weighted in with your underrated feature thread. I have it in my files. A tool I have used is CableGuys MidiShaper
 
#7
b rock
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Re: In built modulation sources 2014/10/28 19:18:29 (permalink)
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Those CableGuys FX work well in X3 now, don't they?  There's also that Rhythmic Controller MFX from Frank's MIDI plugins that I've always liked ... Hmm.  I need to reload those.  Full disclosure, Scook:  I've been "cheating" a lot lately using a Lexicon MPX-1 MIDI output, and this "wildly popular"   Technique that I posted.
 
Still, I think that Sharke's request brings up a killer feature concept that may be relatively easy to integrate into Sonar's current configuration, and one that can be expanded upon in future releases.
#8
scook
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Re: In built modulation sources 2014/10/28 19:35:45 (permalink)
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They gave me a copy of MidiShaper when I provided them instructions on getting the plug-in setup in X2. It worked OK in X2 as long as you respected the "crosstalk" bug. Fortunately X3 fixed the bug and MidiShaper setup is easier.
#9
sharke
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Re: In built modulation sources 2014/10/29 01:12:23 (permalink)
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The workarounds are interesting, but I think it would be an awesome feature to have hard coded into Sonar and would definitely go someways toward making the program more attractive to the electronic crowd who would traditionally choose programs like Reason and Abelton over this one. 
 
I like the idea of them being baked into every MIDI track alongside the arpreggiator like b rock suggests. Then again, the space available in a strip might be a bit limiting in terms of the potential for creating custom modulations. Maybe it would be better to have a global modulation window in which you could instantiate a number of modulation sources which would be assignable to as many parameters as you like. Something like Z3TA+2's awesome LFO module, complete with morphable waves etc. 
 

James
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theheliosequence
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Re: In built modulation sources 2015/04/28 23:06:13 (permalink)
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This would be amazing. I would definitely use this all the time on modulating FX parameters. I need to check out all of the work arounds that you guys are using...
#11
Spencer
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Re: In built modulation sources 2015/04/29 05:14:14 (permalink)
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the best workaround I know has to be using MUX. that thing is so good. one of the best upgrades you can add to sonar.
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BobF
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Re: In built modulation sources 2015/04/29 06:16:41 (permalink)
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Even basic capability would be welcome.  There be some complexity involved in dealing with controllers and other automation sources ...
 
 

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stevec
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Re: In built modulation sources 2015/04/29 14:07:59 (permalink)
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Spencer
the best workaround I know has to be using MUX. that thing is so good. one of the best upgrades you can add to sonar.




Huh, I've only ever used MUX as a "VST Container/Chainer".    Why on earth have I never used it's built-in controls for automation!?  
 
I know what I'll be trying soon.  
 
And yes, MUX is a pretty cool (and inexpensive) tool.
 

SteveC
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#14
theheliosequence
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Re: In built modulation sources 2015/04/30 22:06:04 (permalink)
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Spencer
the best workaround I know has to be using MUX. that thing is so good. one of the best upgrades you can add to sonar.




Cool will check it out! Thanks!
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stevec
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Re: In built modulation sources 2015/04/30 22:16:57 (permalink)
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The UI is very "plain" but it is a cool plugin that offers a lot of flexibility. 
 

SteveC
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#16
BobF
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Global bank of LFOs 2016/01/16 18:42:53 (permalink)
+9 (6)
It would be great to have a bank of global LFOs, with selectable freqs and shapes, that could be used to drive automation.  One-to-many, with the ability to set the amplitude and "phase" of the controlled parameters to track/lead/lag the LFO it's connected to by some number of degrees.
post edited by BobF - 2016/01/16 18:56:26

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#17
RogerH
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Re: Global bank of LFOs 2016/01/16 19:12:04 (permalink)
+1 (1)
Yes please

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dcumpian
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Re: Global bank of LFOs 2016/01/17 09:44:01 (permalink)
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Absolutely!

Mixing is all about control.
 
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sharke
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Re: Global bank of LFOs 2016/01/18 01:29:46 (permalink) ☄ Helpfulby BobF 2016/01/18 08:10:58
+1 (1)
Great idea, and one that I proposed myself some time ago!
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/In-built-modulation-sources-m3108484.aspx
 

James
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BobF
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Re: Global bank of LFOs 2016/01/18 07:58:11 (permalink)
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sharke
Great idea, and one that I proposed myself some time ago!
 
http://forum.cakewalk.com/In-built-modulation-sources-m3108484.aspx
 




Sorry James.  These FRs get buried ... I see they're merged now 

Bob  --
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#21
sharke
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Re: Global bank of LFOs 2016/01/18 18:14:39 (permalink)
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Hardly surprising it was buried after over a year!

James
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#22
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